Theater 650 Pro Discussion

[spacded]

I really I need to step in here!!!


Well perhaps on second thoughts!


This is really the longest most entertaining thread in any forum that i can remember its kinda like
A TVCARD MASOCHIST FREAK CONVENTION!

Multimedia Mike come back and talk top the peeple buddy
YOU can run but cha cant hide!!!

[Octavean]

Originally Posted by jonaslasky

I think you're the only one who's misunderstanding something here. Quit with the digital/analog lecture already.... it's all old and tiresome to the rest of the members.

What you have to understand is ATI NEVER intended to make the 650 a dual tuner setup. They never intended it to be that way. They NEVER promised that it was going to be that way. If you have some weird issues about that, go buy an Nvidia DualTV. You're barking up the wrong tree. Take your issues somewhere else. Start a new thread about dual, triple or quadruple tuners on one board. How about multicore? seems to be the rage these days.

The real issue here is after ATI promised all kinds of new features and fixes, the 650 is released in an unusable state. Let's focus on that. Let's make them account for their undelivered promises.

Jonas

The digital/analog concurrent issue may not be mutually exclusive to the question of how the Theater 650 Pro was intended to function in MCE and how it actually functions in MCE. As it has been stated before, MCE has rather rigid hardware specifications. I’m not really sure MCE 2K5 compliant tuners are supposed to function in this way (non-concurrent) and as we all know the Theater 650 Pro has been touted as MCE compliant.

Also note that the AIW line with Theater 200 chips are software based and don’t actually comply with MCE hardware specifications but nonetheless are also touted as MCE compliant.

This all starts to add up to a history of ATI circumventing hardware specifications of MCE in favor of their own design (possibly with the assistance of Microsoft).

Simply put, the HDTV Wonder officially lost half its functionality when it was adapted to MCE 2K5 due to its non-concurrent design; a design limitation that the Theater 650 Pro shares.

How is it that the Theater 650 Pro is able to retain both digital and analog functionality in MCE 2K5 with this limitation and what logic mechanism is in place to prevent an otherwise inevitable conflict?

[jonaslasky]

Originally Posted by Octavean

How is it that the Theater 650 Pro is able to retain both digital and analog functionality in MCE 2K5 with this limitation and what logic mechanism is in place to prevent an otherwise inevitable conflict?

That would be a question of MCE compliance... but let's not get it confused with a dual tuner issue.

But you're right. We never got a good answer regarding how MCE handles this possible conflict. Perhaps the way the 650 is setup, it's a continuum of channels from the NTSC ones to the ATSC channels. Once you select a channel to watch or record... the board is no longer available for anything else. I imagine ATI would provide those handles for MCE to interface with. But the way things are going who the hell knows. Now that the thing is broken we won't know for a while.

From a real world perspective, you would employ an exclusive OR logic in firmware so when one is in use... the other one doesn't even show up at all... or shows up as "IN USE". The really tricky thing is scheduling. I guess you would make use of that same mechanism to give the software feedback. Once a switch is thrown to use the board in any way... it becomes unavalable for anything alse.

Jonas

[SpaceCadet]

Originally Posted by jonaslasky

What you have to understand is ATI NEVER intended to make the 650 a dual tuner setup. ...go buy an Nvidia DualTV.

The real issue here is after ATI promised all kinds of new features and fixes, the 650 is released in an unusable state. Let's make them account for their undelivered promises.

Let's not confuse chipset issues (which is actually what this thread addresses) with board issues. Multimedia Mike said that the reason that the digital and analog channels were not available concurrently was that there was only one encoder. This didn't make sense as a reasonable restriction, because the digital data is already encoded. The chipset itself is devoted mostly to analog, and has separate analog and digital inputs. I took a look at the design of ATI's board, which uses the chipset, to see if there was another reason for the single-source restriction. The reason is very simple--cost. The boards (at least the US versions) don't have digital and analog tuners. They have a single tuner (based on board photos and reviews), with separate digital and analog demodulators. The analog IF demodulator is built into the 650; the (optional for the chipset) digital demodulator is a separate chip.

The separate issue of whether to put multiple 650/tuner combinations on a single board may not be important to you, but it is relevant to anyone who is actually using their computer as a DVR. It is possible to put multiple 650's on a board using a PCI-to-PCI bridge. I'll address this form of multi-tuner support farther down in this post.

Your desire to punish ATI for a failed launch is bizarre. It's already costing them delayed and lost potential sales. Companies rarely make promises--they issue statements and press releases, which most people are smart enough not to take too seriously until the specified product or service is actually available. As for the truth behind the 650 boards' high return rate and recall, those of us outside of ATI will probably never know the real reason, and it doesn't matter. Since ATI specified that an amplified antenna was needed, it could be that the engineers knew that the tuner or digital demodulator was weak, but management pushed the product out of the door anyway, hoping that there wouldn't be too many returns, in an effort to hit quarterly sales targets or not to miss out on US Labor Day sales. Maybe the first batches of tuners or digital decoders were defective. Maybe there was a manufacturing defect in the boards. Of course, these sorts of problems should have been caught by QA prior to shipment, which is why I'm more inclined to suspect a management decision. And if it was a manufacturing problem and QA didn't catch it, there would still be a management failure. It doesn't matter. Best Buy wasn't going to carry the product with that high of a return rate, and ATI couldn't afford that kind of return rate or the bad press.

Originally Posted by jonaslasky

Perhaps the way the 650 is setup, it's a continuum of channels from the NTSC ones to the ATSC channels. Once you select a channel to watch or record... the board is no longer available for anything else. I imagine ATI would provide those handles for MCE to interface with.

From a real world perspective, you would employ an exclusive OR logic in firmware so when one is in use... the other one doesn't even show up at all... or shows up as "IN USE". The really tricky thing is scheduling. I guess you would make use of that same mechanism to give the software feedback. Once a switch is thrown to use the board in any way... it becomes unavalable for anything alse.

Your understanding of the way MCE handles channels is backwards. The board/driver doesn't specify what channels it handles. For devices of a particular type, MCE expects them to handle whatever channels MCE tells them to tune.

It's not the firmware that determines in-use status; that's tracked by each application (such as MCE) and the hardware and/or its device drivers. Whether the device drivers correctly report in-use status when another application or process requests access is another question--obviously, they're supposed to, but that doesn't mean that they actually work correctly. The Hauppauge WinTV PVR-500 device driver is a good example of a completely incorrect implementation. If one process is using a tuner, and another requests it, the requesting process won't get the tuner because the device driver will correctly report it as in-use. However, the device driver will switch the channel or input to the one that the requesting process wanted, without notifying the process that is actually using the tuner. So, both processes get screwed.

As for the MCE scheduling issue, it's not a question of the board giving the application feedback. ATI is trying to claim that they have created a particular tuner-board design, that it's MCE compliant, and that if MCE doesn't handle it correctly, that's MCE's problem. That's incorrect. The MCE specification for MCE-compliant tuner-encoders is well-defined. The way that ATI has implemented and installed its drivers is in violation of MCE's tuner requirements, and is guaranteed to result in incorrect MCE show scheduling. There are two possible solutions. ATI can give the user the choice of installing either the digital or the analog tuner device driver, but not both (or ATI can just install the analog driver, which makes the most sense for the 650). Or, Microsoft can implement code to handle this form of hybrid tuner, and add this option to MCE's tuner specifications. While this is possible, it's not likely to happen. Microsoft is moving on to CableCARD, which ATI is actively involved in. One could argue that CableCARD is typically hybrid tuner technology, but it's all from one source (unlike the typical cable + OTA sources for the 650).

Back to the questions of board design, analog with digital vs. analog only or multiple analog with digital or multiple analog or multiple digital tuners.

I get the impression that the 650 was designed primarily as an analog-TV chip, and that digital was something of an afterthought. It seems like some engineer said, "Hey, we can add digital, cheap" and marketing said "Cool!" without really thinking about it. But, I could be wrong.

I don't know what market ATI is going after. Most of the world's desktops run Windows, and MCE is the dominant new-PC home OS, at least in the US (and it is sold worldwide). The hybrid tuner design is clearly not compatible with MCE. Maybe they're going after non-MCE software users. No OEM is going to install a card that isn't MCE-compatible.

ATI says people want digital TV. That's true. But most of us can't get OTA digital TV. For people who can't get OTA digital TV, the hybrid board is overpriced; they can't use the digital TV capabilities. For people who can get OTA digital TV and are running MCE, the hybrid board isn't going to function properly. Further, they can't use a separate digital tuner card instead of the 650 board's, because ATI installs a driver for the one on the 650 board.

Anyone who is serious about using their computer as a DVR wants as many tuners as possible. If you buy a computer, or want one that's relatively compact and quiet, then you're going to wind up with the typical slotless wonder. So, yes, most of us want multiple tuners on one board. Separate boards not only require more slots, but they require external splitters and cables. Two hybrid-tuner boards (one tuner per board) would typically require two external splitters (one for the OTA digital TV, one for the analog TV, which is typically cable TV) and a total of four coax cables running to the boards. Two analog tuners on one board and two digital tuners on the other would only require one coax cable to each board (I haven't counted a potential FM antenna in any of this) and no external splitters. In addition, all of the digital and analog tuners would be available concurrently.

Price. People who can't get OTA digital TV aren't going to want to pay the premium for the hybrid board. ATI could sell an analog-only board, perhaps that's the "similar product" mentioned as coming out soon after the recall. But two analog boards, in addition to consuming more slots, costs more than a dual analog-tuner board (perhaps an ATI partner will come out with one, if ATI doesn't). That's why nVidia didn't bother with a single-tuner board--people who are serious only want multi-tuner boards. Further, no one wants to dump a bunch of money into analog or OTA digital TV when CableCARD is coming out in a few months, and you're going to have to buy a new computer to get it.

So again, to be honest, I don't see what market ATI is going after.

Edit: It turns out, this mess is largely the US government's fault. I just read this on AVS Forum: "As of March 1, 2007, a PC card that has an NTSC tuner must have an ATSC tuner." As usual, the government is using our tax dollars to screw us. Oh well, I guess it's time to forget about upgrades and save up for that Vista PC with CableCARD.

[jonaslasky]

Originally Posted by SpaceCadet

Let's not confuse chipset issues (which is actually what this thread addresses) with board issues. Multimedia Mike said that the reason that the digital and analog channels were not available concurrently was that there was only one encoder. This didn't make sense as a reasonable restriction, because the digital data is already encoded.

Clearly Mike was wrong about a lot of things. He never once said he was a tech guy. But the simple fact remains that boards based on the 650 were never meant to be dual tuner boards.. and they never claimed otherwise.

Originally Posted by SpaceCadet

The separate issue of whether to put multiple 650/tuner combinations on a single board may not be important to you, but it is relevant to anyone who is actually using their computer as a DVR. It is possible to put multiple 650's on a board using a PCI-to-PCI bridge. I'll address this form of multi-tuner support farther down in this post.

Sure who doesn't like the idea of multiple tuners on one board? But that's not the issue here. The issue here is: the 550 and the 650 are both broken.

Originally Posted by SpaceCadet

Your desire to punish ATI for a failed launch is bizarre. It's already costing them delayed and lost potential sales.

Ooooh pooor ATI let me kiss their boo boo and make it better. I think lots of people are rejoicing with me that they've stumbled and skinned their knee once again

Originally Posted by SpaceCadet

It's not the firmware that determines in-use status; that's tracked by each application (such as MCE) and the hardware and/or its device drivers.

Quick tell me what FIRMWARE is.

Originally Posted by SpaceCadet

Your understanding of the way MCE handles channels is backwards. The board/driver doesn't specify what channels it handles. For devices of a particular type, MCE expects them to handle whatever channels MCE tells them to tune.

How can people take you seriously when you keep writing pseudo-intellectual crap like this? Even a person who has no clue what a computer is would know your reasoning is flawed. You can tell a man with no legs to walk for ten thousand years and he still won't walk because he can't. The tuner card obviously has to identify itself and declare its capabilities to the software application before the software can decide what commands it should issue to the hardware. I don't know what makes you think you know crap when you don't.

Originally Posted by SpaceCadet

I don't know what market ATI is going after. Most of the world's desktops run Windows, and MCE is the dominant new-PC home OS, at least in the US (and it is sold worldwide). The hybrid tuner design is clearly not compatible with MCE. Maybe they're going after non-MCE software users. No OEM is going to install a card that isn't MCE-compatible.

Again you know not what you say. ATI was going after MCE users from the very start. In fact some adjustments are only available in MCE... not with any other software. The complaint in these related forums was about the MCE centricity of ATI 550 and 650 products, not the other way around. Once again you're way off.

Originally Posted by SpaceCadet

Anyone who is serious about using their computer as a DVR wants as many tuners as possible. If you buy a computer, or want one that's relatively compact and quiet, then you're going to wind up with the typical slotless wonder. So, yes, most of us want multiple tuners on one board.

Ok how many multiple tuner cards are there on the market I really want to know. Tell us how many there are. I'd like to see more people buy non-ATI products.

Originally Posted by SpaceCadet

Edit: It turns out, this mess is largely the US government's fault. I just read this on AVS Forum: "As of March 1, 2007, a PC card that has an NTSC tuner must have an ATSC tuner." As usual, the government is using our tax dollars to screw us. Oh well, I guess it's time to forget about upgrades and save up for that Vista PC with CableCARD.

Well there you go...


Jonas

[SpaceCadet]

Originally Posted by jonaslasky

But the simple fact remains that boards based on the 650 were never meant to be dual tuner boards....

Oh please, do tell us where ATI says that you can't put multiple 650's on one board. ATI hasn't sold their own multi-tuner boards, but other companies have built multi-tuner boards using ATI chipsets. At least one company did this with the 550.

Originally Posted by jonaslasky

The issue here is: the 550 and the 650 are both broken.

And how is the 650 chip broken? ATI built some bad boards using the 650 chipset, and the boards were recalled; you can't even buy one (except used ones that weren't returned).

Originally Posted by jonaslasky

Quick tell me what FIRMWARE is.

OK, I'll try to explain this for those like yourself who never completed first grade. Try to keep up. Your first clue is the word "firm"--it's harder than software and softer than hardware. Firmware is software that has been programmed into persistant memory on the hardware, and either cannot be changed after manufacturing or intial programming, or can only be changed via a firmware update utility. Hardware doesn't have to have firmware. Most hardware is built using some form of digital signal processors and/or programmable gate arrays. Manufacturers do this because it makes it easier to change the design later. Sometimes, they use reprogrammable memory and can issue a firmware update to consumers. Much more often, the firmware is permanent after initial programming. Device drivers are not firmware, they are software.

Originally Posted by jonaslasky

The tuner card obviously has to identify itself and declare its capabilities to the software application before the software can decide what commands it should issue to the hardware. I don't know what makes you think you know crap when you don't.

The device drivers declare the capabilities of the device within the context provided for that type of device, i.e., they can only declare capabilities that are a subset (at most a complete subset) of the pre-defined set of capabilities for that type of device. Oh, that's right, you never finished first grade. A device or device driver has no way to specify capabilities that its parent process doesn't know about.

I'm not going to post my resume here. I started programming professionally almost three decades ago. It's obvious that I've been programming longer than you've been alive. I've worked on software only products, and I've written software for hardware products (down to the chip level). It's obvious that you haven't written a line of code in your life.

Originally Posted by jonaslasky

ATI was going after MCE users from the very start.

I never said that they weren't. I was talking about how they built a product that MCE doesn't currently fully support. Nor did I say that MCE could never support it--Microsoft can always write the code and issue a software update. Maybe Microsoft is going to add such support to Vista MCE. It's not in the current Microft MCE tuner specifications.

Originally Posted by jonaslasky

Ok how many multiple tuner cards are there on the market I really want to know. Tell us how many there are. I'd like to see more people buy non-ATI products.

Oh, that's right, you never learned to use Google. Hauppauge has had dual-tuner cards for a very long time. nVidia only sells a dual-tuner card. Vbox has multi-tuner cards. I haven't bothered to look up the smaller vendors. System builders have built multi-tuner ATI-based cards.

This is the last time that I'm going to waste my time and that of other forum members responding to your senseless posts. If you can't afford a shrink, try the Dr. Phil show. You're one of those self-important jerks with no sense of self-esteem who tries to tear others down to build yourself up, rather than acquiring some skills. You'd rather hear yourself talk than say something useful. So I'm simply going to ignore your posts. I'll never see what crap you write; I don't care what you say.

[hrlslcbr]

SpaceCadet: If you've been more than 30 years programming stuff, I believe you're old and mature enough not to call everyone idiots or other things because they disagree with you. I know I'm not a moderator, but please try not to insult anyone who doesn't think like you... (doesn't know how to use google, didn't finish first grade...).

I agree with jonaslasky on many of the things he's said; and if you don't think the ATI cards are good enough for your needs, you can buy one of the cards you listed on your last post.

[fanbanlo]

now where are you? Multimedia Mike??

~_~ sigh...

[spacded]

Originally Posted by fanbanlo

now where are you? Multimedia Mike??

~_~ sigh...

i said this a while back!

funny innit

[dabl]

Originally Posted by spacded

i said this a while back!

funny innit

Again, if you were paying attention and had actually been reading the thread you'd know why Mike isn't around.

[Octavean]

Originally Posted by jonaslasky

That would be a question of MCE compliance... but let's not get it confused with a dual tuner issue.

Respectfully, as I stated before, the two may not be mutually exclusive.

If I had a Theater 650 Pro sample to work with I could probably answer a lot of questions for myself in this respect but I don’t,…..and likely never will.

There is no question that ATI claims MCE 2K5 compliance and Vista compliance. There is, however, at least in my minds eye a question of how the Theater 650 Pro achieves this compliance with its inherent NTSC/ATSC limitation.

Until this has been established I don’t see how one can definitively say one way or the other whether the “dual tuner issue” is divested from MCE compliance and proper operation within MCE.

The only example I have is the HDTV Wonder and I know how it handles its NTSC/ATSC dual tuner limitation in MCE,….rather poorly indeed and care must be taken to work around it.

I do understand that although both the HDTV Wonder and the Theater 650 Pro have the same limitation that they may handle said limitation very differently in MCE.

We will see what the future holds,…

[SHSPVR]

jonaslasky in short what is Firmware there 2 or more type used

1: EPROM, or erasable programmable read-only memory, is a type of computer memory chip that retains its data when its power supply is switched off. In other words, it is non-volatile which has to do with boot sequence is the set of operations the computer performs when turn on when bios talk to all hardware like it Hardware ID type of device IRQ and I/0 request which has to do with hardware configuration.

2: Some of these devices store that software firmware in device drive or loadable like image file which is turn writing to device itself know as setup instructions for how the device communicates with the other computer hardware and software when loading the device driver, Software firmware is upgrade able in the device drivers unlike certain devices, such as Hard Drives, CD/DVD drive and yes even Video Cards in order for them to work a with a operating system all down to the dos level OS.
Firmware it self just initializes chip functionality on what can and can't do thing like that.

[spacded]

Originally Posted by dabl

Again, if you were paying attention and had actually been reading the thread you'd know why Mike isn't around.

F**K ME you dont actually think i bother to read the thread do yah!

Cmon Spacecadet dont give up im rooting for you

[jonaslasky]

Originally Posted by hrlslcbr

SpaceCadet: If you've been more than 30 years programming stuff, I believe you're old and mature enough not to call everyone idiots or other things because they disagree with you. I know I'm not a moderator, but please try not to insult anyone who doesn't think like you... (doesn't know how to use google, didn't finish first grade...).

I agree with jonaslasky on many of the things he's said; and if you don't think the ATI cards are good enough for your needs, you can buy one of the cards you listed on your last post.

Did you guys recognize that cliched character that you invariably run into after you've browsed around online for sometime . There's always that pseudo-intellectual who invariably claims he's some super-duper tech guy who's forgotten more than anyone else would ever know. But somehow his arguments are always way off the mark. It's obvious to anyone but himself that he don't know squat.

But even if it's true that he's been coding for 30 some odd years... so what?! that's no excuse for not making any sense. If one expects to be respected for their intellect, show us your coherence and your mental agility..... MAKE SENSE! Claiming you've been programming for 30 years doesn't cut it.

First he claims that ATI must not be targeting MCE users (TWICE he said it). After I pointed out that he's dead wrong.... he claims he never did.

He makes it sound like everybody but ATI is making dual tuner boards and ATi is stupid for not doing it. But when I challenged him to name a few dual tuner boards, he tries to cover the stupidity of his position by making up some lame thing about me not knowing how to use google... what the hell is that? Intellectual discourse by his book I guess Oh yeah... and Nvidia ONLY makes dual tuner boards

I better go watch Dr, Phil


Jonas

[jonaslasky]

Originally Posted by Octavean

There is no question that ATI claims MCE 2K5 compliance and Vista compliance. There is, however, at least in my minds eye a question of how the Theater 650 Pro achieves this compliance with its inherent NTSC/ATSC limitation.

Until this has been established I don’t see how one can definitively say one way or the other whether the “dual tuner issue” is divested from MCE compliance and proper operation within MCE.

The only example I have is the HDTV Wonder and I know how it handles its NTSC/ATSC dual tuner limitation in MCE,….rather poorly indeed and care must be taken to work around it.

I do understand that although both the HDTV Wonder and the Theater 650 Pro have the same limitation that they may handle said limitation very differently in MCE.

We will see what the future holds,…

We are probably on the same side on this, Eight Sided Dude. This was not what I was addressing when I talked about dual tuner boards. I only meant boards that have two tuners designed to work independently from each other.... which 650 based boards are NOT..... at least not at present. Apparently you are well aware of the difficulty with HDTV Wonder. One can only hope that ATI has fixed that dilemma with the 650. Of course the first board based on it has turned out to be unusable... so as you said... We will see what the future holds...

I have two HDTV tuners that also have NTSC tuners on the same board. Frankly I purposely did not install the drivers for those (NTSC tuners) because I have no use for them. so I don't know if they have the same problem as the HDTV Wonder.


Jonas

[jonaslasky]

Firmware is programmable logic. They have the best of both worlds. The speed of hard wired devices but with the flexibility of a programmable device... so it's almost like software. The chipsets on your motherboard is firmware, so it can be upgraded via software. But the software in that case doesn't run the chipset at runtime. Rather the software actually rewires the chipset via a built in programmer hardware. After the upgrade is done the firmware gains new functions.... as if it's a totally new machine. A lot of hardware is now built with programmable logic because upgradability is a big selling point. In the early days, programmable logic chips were so bulky and expensive that they were only used for the most expensive machines or peripherals. Now everyone is using them. It's like having custom made chips for every product you're working on.... a luxury that was unthinkable not too long ago.

EPROMS or EEPROM are OK but they are very slow and limited... so they're not very well suited for really high performance application. But they are used for programming programmable logic in some cases. Programmable logic (CPLD and FPGA) on the other hand are very fast and work at voltages compatible with modern processors. They have switching times in the nano second range.

A few people have actually proposed building computers on programmble logic instead of processors. The idea is, you would have a dedicated hardware for every type of processing you want to do. When you're done with a particular type of computing, you reconfigure the logic to be something else entirely. It would be frighteningly fast if anybody ever actually built a machine like that. But these projects are just starting. I do recall reading a claim that someone has come up with a system that could be reconfigured very quickly.... quickly enough so you didn't notice it too much.... of course there would be no multi-threading on those machines. But if you were trying to render a feature length animated film... you'd be willing to live with some limitations in exchnge for lighting quick 3-D rendering.

Jonas