Red Dwarf.

[Stewart]

Why did it suddenly get so crap?

Well, to answer my own question; because Rob Grant and Doug Naylor stopped writing the scripts as a team, but I also have another reason.

Now, all fans of this classic show pretty much agree that you can split the various series up into 3 categories.

1) Series 1 & 2 - The formative series.

The real classics, where the characters were introduced, the sets were built for £1.97, everything was grey, the main characters never left the ship (until series 2 at least), and the jokes were a bit flat. Brilliant stuff, don't get me wrong, but the audience isn't really laughing, in series 1 particularly, so the show has room to improve.

2) Series 3, 4, 5, & 6 - The golden series.

A solid, 4 series run, of quality, funny, well written, comedy. Krtyen comes in as a main character, Hattie takes over as Holly, Starbug gives the cast a way to get off the Red Dwarf, and everything’s rosey. Classic episodes like Polymorph, Back to Reality, etc. All good these series.

3) Series 7 & 8 - The utter ****e series.

Oh dear. Series 7 was below par, but series 8 was embarrassingly bad. All there is to say really.

But why? As I said, apart from Doug and Rob not writing as a team, I think one of the major reasons why these series (8 in particular) were so bad, is that for some reason, the decision seems to have been taken, to aim the show at a target audience 15 years younger than the previous series.

So, rather than aiming it at the 17-25 year olds, they starting aiming it at the sort of people who laugh at the Chuckle Brothers.

As a classic example, look at these two jokes, the first taken from Series 4, an episode called 'White Hole', and the second taken from Series 8; not sure what episode, they are so bad I've not watched them more than once.

Anyway, typical Series 3, 4, 5 & 6 joke:

Kryten: I'm sorry, Sir.
Rimmer: Sorry? Why are you sorry?
Kryten: Well, Space Corps Directive 195 clearly states that in an
emergency power situation, a hologrammatic crewmember must lay down his
life in order that the living crewmembers might survive.
Rimmer: Yes, but Rimmer Directive 271 states just as clearly, "No chance
you metal bastard."

Funny, adult humour, and the sort of quality gag we know and love. Now a typical Series 7 & 8 joke:

(Half Time during a game of Basketball between the Guards and Inmates)

Kryten: Where were you?
Kochanski: Where was I?
Kryten: You were supposed to be picking up Rice!
Kochanski: I did. We're meeting up for drinks on Thursday.
Kryten: Not that kind of 'picking up', you ninny.

Not very funny, rather childish, and all a bit embarrassing really.

But do you see what I mean? It’s not just the quality of the gag, it’s the style. The word 'bastard' has become the word 'ninny', the joke isn't clever, and it really does sound like a Chuckle Brothers gag.

Oh dear. Oh dear, oh dear. Oh dear, oh dear, oh dear.

I think this is as much to blame for the state of the last 2 series of Red Dwarf, than the breaking up of Grant-Naylor as a writing team.

Do you think it would have been a conscious decision? Did some marketing executive tell the script writers to tone down the gags to appeal to annoying tweenagers, or are the various no-marks who had a go at writing the scripts, simply not as talented as Rob and Doug together?

Like I say I think its pretty much 50\50.

Shame really, as the gap between Series 6 and 7 was many years, and I was looking forward to it for so long; what a disappointment it was. Of course, Series 8 was even worse, and the classic series that went before were spoiled.

I've been collecting the DVDs, as they are released, buying each one on the day of release. Brilliant they are as well; the classic episodes, cast commentaries, behind the scenes stuff, everything. I am honestly undecided if I am going to even bother buying the Series 7 and 8 DVDs when they come out though. Be nice to have the full set, but spending money on comedy that poor...

Anyway, what do we think?

[killgORE]

I agree with pretty much everything you said. I am also not a fan of the new series using computer generated space scenes... I miss my washing up liquid bottle with tea-bags glued to it and painted red, swinging on strings !

WTF was that lame dinosaur curry gag that got stretched over two episodes <- I seem to remember -> it was stupid. + why did a red dwarf episode go over one ep ? can the writers not structure a script, I suppose we wouldn't mind if this kind of trick was done in the golden era.

The stronger of the original writers can be found by reading the books.... One book was a chore... the other is o be cherished...

[Skeps]

Gotta love Red Dwarf..........but like you say it did get a bit crap in the last two series And yeah I've been buyin em on DVD as they are being released, and will be buying the poorer series 7 and 8.

[Rythmic]

Thats the BBC for you - take a good series - run it for much longer than it ever should run - turn it useless.

Take a look at the writers for the 7th series - Grant & Naylor only wrote 2, and Chris Barrie only turned up for about 2 as well...

IMHO it was with the introduction of Kochanski as a part of the crew that really spoiled it - the whole premise (4 lads with completely different personalities stuck with the realization that they're never going to get it again) was spoiled. Check the episode where Kryten gets picked up in particular- the humour just wouldn't work with Kochanski there.

Blackadder and Fawlty towers got it right - get out after a few seasons - remain a classic forever.

[Skii]

Nothing beat series 2 im0, i all went very downhill from there, my favorite episode of all was Queeg, utter genious.

I personally the series just started to crumble after Norman Lovett left, as Holly, he was perfection

[unrealrocks]

Yeah - I'm a huge fan of RD as well. Although it really did become just something else when they started adding crew members here and there - then they met the other ship.

Hopefully the film should improve uppon this - Both the writers wrote it together although theres been numerous hitches and problems, one of the first readthoughs with the cast was in early 2000, they started filming in May 2004 !

[Zathras]

They tried to sell it to the States. You're right on everything else though, breakup of writing team etc. The sets became far more expensive and they introduced CGI special effects when part of the humour was that everything was cobbled together and filmed on a shoestring budget with dodgy models that still looked far better than the CGI.

[Stoo]

Yup, the US networks tried to do their own remake, so instead they got the beeb to produce the last couple of series for them and to save money they combined the lot, only they had to dumb it down so it didn't confuse/offend *anyone* ... *ever*..

As you pointed out.. it ended up being utter ****e..

[mike_w]

Originally Posted by Skii

Nothing beat series 2 im0, i all went very downhill from there, my favorite episode of all was Queeg, utter genious.

I don't agree that Series 2 was the best, but Queeg still has to be one of the very best episodes, along with Quaratine and a couple of others (which I can't think of - I know the episodes, but not the names!)

Originally Posted by Skii

I personally the series just started to crumble after Norman Lovett left, as Holly, he was perfection

Like I said, I still loved Red Dwarf after Series 2, but Norman Lovett just can't be beaten!

[Stewart]

Originally Posted by Zathras

They tried to sell it to the States.

There was an attempt to flog the show to America, and an appaling pilot made, but that's not why the show imploded. The break up of the writing team and the script quality that followed was just too great a drop.

Also, Rimmer leaving for most of series 7 didn't help. He's the foil for Lister; Lister isn't funny without Rimmer there to annoy.

[Zathras]

It (the original) was shown in America, on BBC America, and the overseas market played a big part in the writing of Series 7 onwards.

[Stewart]

They were already dropping references to American idols by series 3, after getting popular in America.

End of the day, if Grant Naylor had continued to write the scripts as a team, Series 7 & 8 would have been a whole lot better than they were, American audience or not. I take your point though.

[Zathras]

Another huge factor IMHO was the writing for Kryten, being all emotional and jealous. It just did not work at all. Compare Kryten's part in Camile:

LISTER: Come on, what is it?
KRYTEN: It's a b... It's a b... It's a small, off-duty Czechoslovakian traffic warden!
LISTER: Yes, you did it, you did it! What's this?
KRYTEN: It's a red-and-blue striped golfing umbrella!
LISTER: Kryten! Yes! What's this?
KRYTEN: It's an apple.
LISTER: No! What is it?
KRYTEN: It's a, it's a, it's, it's, it's the Bolivian Navy on manoeuvres in the South Pacific!

and his part in most of S7 after Kochanski arrived. No comparison whatsoever.

[Stewart]

Indeed. So in short, every change that was made, was made for the worse.

Grant Naylor writing scripts changed to various no-marks writing scrpits. Worse.
Rimmer being a semi-regular character for series 7. Worse.
Kryten becoming a complete arse. Worse.
Kochanski actualy being a crew member. Worse.
Gags aimed at Chuckle Brothers fans instead of 25 age group. Worse.
CGI special effect instead of Model shots. Worse.
Bringing back the Red Dwarf and crew (really should have been good). Worse. In fact, the cock-up of all cock-ups, as Series 8 made Series 7 look good, and Series 7 was cack.

Some of the 'gags' the Cat was cracking in hte last few series were so bad, it was criminal.

"Rock, rock, rock... I'm sick of rock... I've got to put all the rock albums on the speaker system" or something like that. Hohoho. What unfunny muppet wrote that? I've s*it better gags.

Annoying as well, as it was a big part of my childhood, I grew up watching it, I looked forward to new series like I looked forward to Christmas. And then, when I was all grown up, they spoiled it with a few terrible series.

Maybe the film, if they ever get the cash together, can go some way to repairing the damage, like the DVDs are.

Even those have annoyed me though; the cast commentating over the episodes are the best part of the DVDs, for someone like me, who's watched the episodes a million times, and knows them word for word. For the Series 5 recording Craig Charles was ill... so theyt recorded it anyway, without him.

I mean, he's only the main character for the whole story; no reason to actually wait for a few days for him to get over his snotty nose, and then record it. Oh no; just forget about him; us mugs wont mind paying for the DVD, when they couldn't even be arsed to do a proper job.

Cowboys! Stop cocking up the programme I love!

[gobbo]

Plus they stopped all the "smeg" jokes after about the 4th series!

Older Red Dwarf was excellent, funny, adult but with some damn good acting. Now, its gone pants. Agree with your point vaul!

[Byatt]

Originally Posted by Vaul

Kochanski actualy being a crew member. Worse.

That was enough.