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Thread: Petrol vs diesel

  1. #17
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    Re: Petrol vs diesel

    Quote Originally Posted by DanceswithUnix View Post
    I think warm up time just depends on the engine either way.

    The FIAT design in my Alfa warms up surprisingly fast and certainly as fast as petrol engines I have owned. I gather that is down to use of an exhaust gas recirculation valve, another thing to go wrong Other diesel engines rely on electric heaters which do go wrong but at least don't cripple the engine if they fail.
    Mainly depends on engine mass, which is largely dependent on size of engine. Diesels tend to be bigger and heavier than petrols for a similar power output though as they have to be made stronger to cope with the higher compression ratios that diesels use.

    I have noticed that newer engines warm up faster, presumably to help with emissions. My current car warms up in about 2 minutes, whereas my old car took about 5. The engine is the same capacity in both cases (though the new one has the turbo in the exhaust manifold which helps).

    Quote Originally Posted by deejayburnout View Post
    I always thought that pulling a heavy vehicle like people carrier with a petrol would be a bad idea, especially around town. Shows you what I know.
    Depends on the people carrier. A zafira only weighs about 1.5 tons for instance, which is comparable to an average hatchback, hence petrol really not being a problem.

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    root Member DanceswithUnix's Avatar
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    Re: Petrol vs diesel

    Quote Originally Posted by Butcher View Post
    Depends on the people carrier. A zafira only weighs about 1.5 tons for instance, which is comparable to an average hatchback, hence petrol really not being a problem.
    That's the bit that I find scary, old Escorts and the mk1 Golf were about 800kg. An old Mini had a kerb weight of just over 600kg. I still wince when I hear things like "only 1.5T"

    I think part of the warm up time is engine power output. The waste energy from a 200BHP lump is rather more than an 80BHP lump, so if engine mass is the same it should warm up faster.

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    Re: Petrol vs diesel

    if I may intercede?

    As the driver, for many many years, of fleet, company and demo cars, I would always say "Diesel"

    Fuel consumption is just soo much better, even around town. And every penny helped.. right?

    However... for two years (until Feb this year) I've been running my own car (Saab TiD 150) and working for a parts company.

    Petrol cars, as they get older, break less.

    Diesel cars, as they get older, break more.

    With the exception perhaps of Honda's 2.2 CDTi I'd personally rather have a nice petrol Ford/Vauxhall etc than a diesel. The parts prices and failure rates are just sooo much higher on the Diesel compoments

    Example: not just a new cluth.. but the dual mass flywheel. Diesels almost all have them. Vauxhall/Fiat/Saab (same engine and box) but also the hallowed VW/Audi/Skoda all use DUal Mass flywheels on their diesels and they just fail to much to justify the fuewl savings,.

    Inlet swilr manifolds (see above comment on )

    But also fuel pumps and the regulator that goes with them.


    I'm now back into a new car every 3 months, and doing 4k miles per month. Diesel all day long. 55mpg average.

    Buying my own cars? Petrol....all day long

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    Re: Petrol vs diesel

    Most petrol engines have dual mass flywheels these days too. And they're beginning to get all the fancy tech like direct injectors, swirls, turbos. etc.

    Petrols still usually develop less torque though, so are kinder on said dual mass flywheels.

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    Re: Petrol vs diesel

    I'd better justify the pro Honda thing:

    Jan 2012 my missus bough a 96k mile Civic 2.2 and 3 weeks later I bought my 46k Saab 9-3 TiD 150. Both full Main Dealer history with all the rightr stuff done

    Chalk and cheese cars. We went on all long journeys in the 9-3. We carried large things in the Civic, seats down.

    In the next two years the Saab needed a clutch and dual mass flywheel (stiff price even when you're in the food chain as I am), then the water pump sheered and did a head gasket (cambelt was booked in, water pump in the boot waitig to be fitted the following Monday - common fault was prepared... just not quite in time) so I did the inlet manifold at same time and was right too as it was blocked and due to fail.
    Glow plugs
    All regular servicing too and extras as they wore (drop links)

    Over all I spent way over £2000 at proper low trade costs while doing 35k miles in it and getting goood 52mpg from it


    Civic.... 44mpg up to 50 on a longer run......

    oil filters pads

    eventually at 119k this yuear it needed a clutch.

    I asked the Honda man for a dual mass flywheel price as the whole thing was coming out anyway... and he honestly said "we're not sold one before... they don't break"

    So I didn't change it.


    Cant help but love Honda.. sorry.. but they are nearly always worth the extra dough.

    Quote Originally Posted by Advice Trinity by Knoxville
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    Re: Petrol vs diesel

    How new are you buying? New I'd probably still get diesel as I prefer the power delivery. Older, definitely petrol due to more sensible repair costs.

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    Re: Petrol vs diesel

    Probably a 2011 plate.

  8. #24
    Seething Cauldron of Hatred TheAnimus's Avatar
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    Re: Petrol vs diesel

    Also not all Diesels are created equal, the PAG e-HDI 92 FAP for example doesn't have much reported issue with premature DMF failure, the garage I use the guy was commenting that for every one they've seen with the PAG diesels, they've seen five in the Alphas. But it's always really hard with these failure rate figures, is it the driver, or the machine, certain stereotypes do always appear to try and live up to their reputations!

    One thing I will say, as someone who owns two 'eco' diesels is that clutch wear is much more vicious than any petrol I've driven (including the DB8!). Partly the mapping, partly the nature of low RPM engine, the power that comes in such a tiny space almost always requires feathering for passenger comfort. A nice petrol engine naturally spreads things out more. It's easier to smoothly drive a petrol than a diesel I think we all agree?

    I'm fairly sure that because of were I live, I end up wearing my car more. I'm on a side road to a very busy road, as such pulling out, even turning left is normally a case of floor it, because for the last 2 years, someone parks high top transit van, blocking the view to the right. So even turning left is a bit tricky, as you can't see anything until you've got your noise in the way. London being London, that means gunning it. Why has this story apropos? Because I reckon doing such a thing to an engine within 1 minute of it starting up is far more expensive in wear, than worrying about specifics of engines. Hell if I'm not in a hurry I'll give it two or three min just to let the A/C balance things out and give the car a quick walk around.

    The debate I guess I'm saying is complex, and maybe a little bit pointless compared to habbits and the like which will create far more of an issue. Will the DPF be a problem, depends on where you live and drive, will the clutch wear out early, depends how much of a numpty you are etc.

    There is one obvious thing from the whole debate however. Electric cars make TheAnimus The Engineer a lot happier, they are just freed of so many issues, complex gear boxes, transmissions, clutches. The only thing I wonder about with say the Model S, what happens if the left motor wears more than the right motor, how much control do they have for correcting such things, I remember reading about their whole simulated differential, so I guess it could coup. But having recycled old electric wheelchairs it was often the case that the left motor would be more worn out, we figured it was because that design had the control stick on the left, and people would put more stress on it, that or just random. The fact that the biggest wearing part on a model S, can be replaced automatically by a machine, for $60 fee is amazing. I just feel this Petrol vs Diesel thing highlights how many vulnerable 'moving parts' these designs have.
    throw new ArgumentException (String, String, Exception)

  9. #25
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    Re: Petrol vs diesel

    Quote Originally Posted by Zak33 View Post
    I'd better justify the pro Honda thing:

    Jan 2012 my missus bough a 96k mile Civic 2.2 and 3 weeks later I bought my 46k Saab 9-3 TiD 150. Both full Main Dealer history with all the rightr stuff done

    Chalk and cheese cars. We went on all long journeys in the 9-3. We carried large things in the Civic, seats down.

    In the next two years the Saab needed a clutch and dual mass flywheel (stiff price even when you're in the food chain as I am), then the water pump sheered and did a head gasket (cambelt was booked in, water pump in the boot waitig to be fitted the following Monday - common fault was prepared... just not quite in time) so I did the inlet manifold at same time and was right too as it was blocked and due to fail.
    Glow plugs
    All regular servicing too and extras as they wore (drop links)

    Over all I spent way over £2000 at proper low trade costs while doing 35k miles in it and getting goood 52mpg from it


    Civic.... 44mpg up to 50 on a longer run......

    oil filters pads

    eventually at 119k this yuear it needed a clutch.

    I asked the Honda man for a dual mass flywheel price as the whole thing was coming out anyway... and he honestly said "we're not sold one before... they don't break"

    So I didn't change it.


    Cant help but love Honda.. sorry.. but they are nearly always worth the extra dough.
    Clutch is a common issue with these Honda Diesels, from what i have been told, you can put the clutch on from a later year and even that goes away. Main thing to remember with them is just down accelerate in 6th, use it as a cruiser gear.

    After my parents old Accord Sport that lasted over ten years with little more than basic services, tires, exhaust, brakes etc (the usual things that wear down) being replaced, it was absolutely flawless.
    My current Type-R is quality, it does have some rattles and shakes but its a fantastic car.

    As for my opinion on Diesels vs Petrol, unless you are doing 15k or over, petrol is the answer.

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    Re: Petrol vs diesel

    Quote Originally Posted by TheAnimus View Post

    One thing I will say, as someone who owns two 'eco' diesels is that clutch wear is much more vicious than any petrol I've driven (including the DB8!). Partly the mapping, partly the nature of low RPM engine, the power that comes in such a tiny space almost always requires feathering for passenger comfort. A nice petrol engine naturally spreads things out more. It's easier to smoothly drive a petrol than a diesel I think we all agree?
    Yes and no. My old Astra was very slightly spluttery at idle (rubbish overly green GM Throttle Position Sensors mainly) so you often have to feather the clutch when moving away on slight slopes. Never had that with the diesel combo van i had before that - not having to worry about revs, and just using clutch as stop/go riding the torque has advantages as a driver. Mechanically not so good of course.

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    Re: Petrol vs diesel

    Quote Originally Posted by Biscuit View Post
    Clutch is a common issue with these Honda Diesels, from what i have been told, you can put the clutch on from a later year and even that goes away. Main thing to remember with them is just down accelerate in 6th, use it as a cruiser gear.

    After my parents old Accord Sport that lasted over ten years with little more than basic services, tires, exhaust, brakes etc (the usual things that wear down) being replaced, it was absolutely flawless.
    My current Type-R is quality, it does have some rattles and shakes but its a fantastic car.

    As for my opinion on Diesels vs Petrol, unless you are doing 15k or over, petrol is the answer.
    I had a 2007 diesel Civic and that had clutch problems. Luckily, I was able to sell it before I needed to replace it.

    However, when I looked into clutch slipping, it was a very common problem on them; so common in fact that Honda did a fixed price deal on it (£585 IIRC) and the Dual Mass Flywheel (another £500 on top). The issue was that they originally used the same clutch in the petrol and diesel cars, and the torque from the diesel was "ratcheting" the clutch far too quickly, leading to premature wearing. When I sold my car, I think they were on the third or forth revision to sort the issue out.

  12. #28
    Banhammer in peace PeterB kalniel's Avatar
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    Re: Petrol vs diesel

    Quote Originally Posted by TheAnimus View Post
    It's easier to smoothly drive a petrol than a diesel I think we all agree?
    Quite the opposite in my experience - the torque of a diesel means you don't have to change gear anything like as much and gear changes can be that much more relaxed as you don't have to worry about staying in a power band up a hill for instance. Depends on the engine of course, but the ones I've driven that's certainly been the case.

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    Re: Petrol vs diesel

    Quote Originally Posted by DanceswithUnix View Post
    That's the bit that I find scary, old Escorts and the mk1 Golf were about 800kg. An old Mini had a kerb weight of just over 600kg. I still wince when I hear things like "only 1.5T"

    I think part of the warm up time is engine power output. The waste energy from a 200BHP lump is rather more than an 80BHP lump, so if engine mass is the same it should warm up faster.
    Yeah cars are heavy now. Mine is a 3 door hatchback and has a kerb weight of nearly 1.5 tonnes!

    As for power output, it's more because more powerful engines are generally larger. The power rating is peak, a 200 bhp engine spends most of it's time making much much less power than that. When driven gently the two engines would be making a similar amount of power, so only the larger mass of the more powerful engine would really affect things. Of course if you hoof it a more powerful engine will warm up much more quickly.

    Quote Originally Posted by kalniel View Post
    Quite the opposite in my experience - the torque of a diesel means you don't have to change gear anything like as much and gear changes can be that much more relaxed as you don't have to worry about staying in a power band up a hill for instance. Depends on the engine of course, but the ones I've driven that's certainly been the case.
    I find turbocharged petrols to be the best bet. You get good low down torque but also a much wider power band, so you can sit in gear even better than a diesel.

  14. #30
    Banhammer in peace PeterB kalniel's Avatar
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    Re: Petrol vs diesel

    Quote Originally Posted by Butcher View Post
    I find turbocharged petrols to be the best bet. You get good low down torque but also a much wider power band, so you can sit in gear even better than a diesel.
    Ooo interesting. I've not tried a modern turbo petrol (next car is likely to be one though). Older ones were rather 'peaky'

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    Re: Petrol vs diesel

    Quote Originally Posted by kalniel View Post
    Ooo interesting. I've not tried a modern turbo petrol (next car is likely to be one though). Older ones were rather 'peaky'
    They've got a lot better in my view, boost comes in at much lower revs which makes them much easier to drive, albeit with less of a kick in the back.

    Mine is quoted as having 280 lb.ft from 1800-5500 rpm, which compares well to most diesels!

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    Re: Petrol vs diesel

    Quote Originally Posted by Butcher View Post
    They've got a lot better in my view, boost comes in at much lower revs which makes them much easier to drive, albeit with less of a kick in the back.

    Mine is quoted as having 280 lb.ft from 1800-5500 rpm, which compares well to most diesels!
    My elderly 1998 A3 1.8T is my first turbo petrol - honestly I really can't tell when the turbo is kicking in at all. In fact the only slight telltale it is there at all is the hiss from the silly dump valve the previous owner fitted.

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