I'm parking alone....please don't park next to me!

[Noxvayl]

I want a Tesla Model 3 when it finally comes to market (might be able to get one by that time). It may not surprise you that along with thinking we have the capability to produce abundant energy I would also like to use technology that harnesses the most efficient form of energy we have created, electricity. Their Model S is awesome, and the Model X is lovely but I know I can't afford either of those with the mountain of student debt that I have; I hope the lower price point of the Model 3 will be enough for me to be able to get one in 3-5 years time.

To be fair, I like the size of cars at the moment, smaller would be impractical for me and bigger would be a pain to drive without the necessity of carting family around. I can understand the nostalgia of wanting the older types of cars, but they seem out of place in today's world from my whipper snapper perspective.

[Knoxville]

Oh I understand completely the safety issues in a Defender/Series Land Rover. When I go out for a drive my right knee is a crumple zone in the event of a side impact, in the event of anything nasty occuring in the region of the fuel tank my bottom will be the first thing to know about it; as it is located three inches above it and seperated from it by very little, millions of airbags set to detonate themselves into various parts of my anatomy "cannot be fitted" and it's not squishy enough in a world where every pedestrian is essentially rendered deaf by headphones etc. etc. etc.

Not to say my slightly facetious tone doesn't mean I don't genuinely understand, I do. Safety is important in a world where I and millions of others are licensed to pilot one to two tonnes of rolling death at half past six in the morning on three hours sleep when an interrogator couldn't help us remember our own names and the toothpaste is still fresh in our mouths.

What intrigues me, although this really isn't the thread to discuss it. Is what kind of logic comes into play when you make it illegal to manufacture something on the grounds of safety concerns while still allowing the public to legally operate it. The Land Rover being the obvious example at hand there is my obvious, flagrant and well established bias to take into account I admit but where is the logic in saying - You can't build your car like that because we have deemed that design unsafe. But what about the millions already on the roads? Those were built before we decided they weren't safe so they're fine. But they're exactly the same design, in fact the newer ones are safer. Not really no. Are you sure that in the last sixty years we might not have noticed thousands of deaths because of our vehicle? Stop it, now. Keep making Range Rovers and be quiet.

Maybe it's just me but it's not particularly that it's killing the Defender (there are still thousands out there and I'll still end up with one and still have mine sat on the drive) it's the thinking that niggles me. That percieved vacum of logic. Personally I'm intrguied to see what replaces the Defender. I probably won't like it, will miss the old design and keep buying what I do like second hand but it's not often you get to watch a company attempt to replace a landmark piece of design.

[DanceswithUnix]

But what about the millions already on the roads?

In the long term they won't be significant. People will use them, crash them, drive them to the point that they aren't worth anything and then they get scrapped. The few that are left after that will spend most of their time in a nice warm garage, won't do many miles, and owned by enthusiast drivers who will drive them really carefully (and park them well away from others ) because it is their pride and joy. So if ignored old cars become statistically insignificant. If government intervened then that would happen faster, but I imagine forcing people to hand over their cars would be expensive and unpopular. Better to just let them fade into statistical obscurity while people buy cars with no steering feel, over sensitive power brakes, a reliance on traction control and skid control electronics etc but that is OK because they have all the cup holders you could ever want.

I can understand the nostalgia of wanting the older types of cars, but they seem out of place in today's world from my whipper snapper perspective.

Not so much a nostalgia of old cars, but of driving. Most modern cars you are pretty much a passenger, you might as well go the whole hog and get Google to steer it for you as well. I think it is that idea that someone is driving a really dumbed down car that scares me if they park next to me.

[Noxvayl]

I agree with DanceswithUnix on banning the sale of Defenders, I think the left over ones are still a safety concern but I highly doubt we would accept the government forcefully taking them away because they are unsafe. Its a compromise between achieving beter safety and not annoying everyone, which seems to be most decisions made by politicians to be honest.

Having learnt to drive in a Defender 110 V8 I am more interested in the engine than the brakes, steering and cushiony interior when driving. At the moment the Jazz I drive is more "raw" for lack of a better word; the steering wheel lets me know about every bump, more so than I remember of the Defender but that was a tank so probably absorbed most things because the steering wheel could pass it up to me. I'm not a body builder so don't want to give up power steering, I would also hate the clutches of old as my knees aren't the strongest and the braking assist doesn't make that much of a difference to how you throw a car around corners. I am more worried about the dumbed down way people are taught to drive in this country than a car that makes the experiences easier and more pleasurable...

I get highly annoyed driving on highways because most the population never learns to drive on one and stupidly thinks the middle lane belongs to them so they refuse to exit it unless leaving the highway. It's sometimes worse on a 2 lane highway where people stay in the right lane regardless of traffic conditions or whether someone would like to pass; it's not like I am asking for much, just remain in the left most lane when driving unless you overtake... Cars are not a concern of mine, I like them the way they are and enjoy driving them; it is people that concern me, uncurious people that plod through life without ever improving themselves because they don't see any reason to, that is what is a serious issue on the road and the pavement. Just to be clear, I don't want to blame someone or something for this issue; it exists and is something we need to address. I see little or no correlation between the improvement in cars and the decline of driver competence.

[Knoxville]

For virtually any other kind of vehicle I think that sort of logic MIGHT apply but with something like 75% of the Land Rovers ever made still out there (in various states of repair I grant you) I think the fade to obscurity will take a lot longer than it would for say saloon cars manfactured during that era. The same goes for early Unimogs and Jeeps and the like. The mechanno set like nature of the vehicles and the enthusiast nature of their owners means that as long as parts are still available from third party manufacturers they'll keep on going. It's taken nearly seventy years to kill 25% of the Defenders acenstry after all and rumour has it they'll keep making them in countries without such stringent safety legislation too.

I'm not going to argue for or against killing production because I like the old school but I'd also like to see what the new school comes up with and as I said, the second hand market will cater to me for some time to come either way. It's the thought process behind the legislation I find ... well, just a bit odd

[DanceswithUnix]

...and the braking assist doesn't make that much of a difference to how you throw a car around corners. I am more worried about the dumbed down way people are taught to drive in this country than a car that makes the experiences easier and more pleasurable...

But I don't see how you can learn to drive well in a modern car. Again, I think a Defender is a special case as it isn't tuned for road driving. But for most modern cars...

Steering is stiffened up to the point that if someone has a front tyre blowout and is dumb enough to slam the brakes on they won't kill themselves. That is so stiff it mandates power steering. Electric power steering is more energy efficient than hydraulic, so electric it is to improve the emissions even though the feedback is faked by a computer system pushing against your hands like a force feedback video game wheel rather than a genuine connection to the road surface. Disc brakes are powered by massive servos because in a dangerous situation some people don't brake as hard as they should, so the car assumes all the time that you are in an emergency stop. The accelerator pedal has for the last decade or so become just another computer input with the actual throttle being servo controlled, modern clutches are operated by robot with a twin clutch system.

So basically none of the inputs to the car connect directly to the systems they originally controlled.

Heck, even hill starts are automated in modern cars. Parallel parking is done by pressing the parallel park button, selecting reverse and taking your hands off the steering wheel. If you are coming up behind stationary traffic and don't bother braking, that is fine because the adaptive cruise control sensors that let you turn your brain off on the motorway will stop the car for you.

Some of these things are only on luxury cars atm, but it only takes 10 years for technology to filter down to the likes of a Fiesta.

Now in the past I have owned a Morris Ital estate, so I am well aware of how dangerous a bad car can be and am in favour of some limits in what is allowed, but de-skilling drivers doesn't strike me as the best thing to do.

So when I parked in a car park, and come back to find that the big 4x4 SUV that I parked next to has taken off a load of paint from the corner of my car as it pulled away, I was saddened but I can't say I was too surprised. Turning a corner without hitting something is obviously too much to ask for some people, and my car is quite short and narrow by modern standards too. Perhaps I should have parked right at the back of the car park on my own rather than in the middle, but some git would only have come and parked next to me.

I sometimes wonder if the person who recently hit my car will have a few days later seen the scrape on their car and indignantly announced to the world that someone had hit their car. After all, with a CD playing and the kids making noise in the back, perhaps the scraping noise of hitting my car as they pulled off could be ignored as one of the shopping bags falling over in the back. They will probably have set off my car alarm as well, but who doesn't ignore those eh?

[Moby-Dick]

Vauxhall Senator from the 80s is pretty much the same size as the Vauxhall Insignia today

you realize that you are not comparing like for like models ? the closest GM do to something like the senator today is the Monaro - the Insignia equivalent was the cavalier. Today's Fiesta isn't far off the Mk1 Focus dimensions.

[Noxvayl]

I do realise that Moby-Dick, as you said it has no direct descendants and it already feels weird calling it a Vauxhall... hate that name, Opel is so much better

I'm not sure why people being less skilled at driving is attributed to the cars they are driving... Just because equipment changes in sport doesn't make the sportsmen less skilled at their sport... We now have 10 million more people in the UK than in the 40s (http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/interac...ex_embed.shtml) and the percentage of drivers has increased as public transport has become more expensive than owning a car. So more people, plus people driving cars not because they want to but because they need to leads to the situation we have with less skilled drivers. Not many people feel the need to master the skill of driving, it isn't even considered a skill anymore for some people. To me that has little to do with the cars, because enthusiasts still use cars that assist them in driving competently. In the past I feel those that drove badly crashed and stopped driving rather than surviving and continuing.

I recently had to cart my sisters friends into town as her personal taxi service... her friends thought I didn't need a rear view camera to help with reversing because, and I quote, "I was a guy". I questioned why being a guy had anything to do with it, I simply learnt to do things one at a time; first I learnt how to use the clutch without the accelerator (V8 Defender, wasn't hard) on a field, then I went into a parking lot to learn how to get the car into a parking bay first time (in South African bays you can achieve that...) while my dad went shopping; it was only after I mastered those things that I got onto the road, but in this country you don't need any ability in controlling a car before getting onto the road. Everything is thrown at you in one go, deal with everything before you master it and enjoy... good luck. I can't imagine a worse way to learn, all the stress at once and little sense of satisfaction in conquering something useful.

I can't see cars being the problem, people and the way driving is taught is a massive issue for me in this country. It is a poor excuse for a driving test and the instructors don't even take you on all the different types of roads either, so good luck figuring out how to get onto a motorway, often see people parked in the on ramp...

[DanceswithUnix]

Not many people feel the need to master the skill of driving, it isn't even considered a skill anymore for some people.

Sadly you might be right there, and such attitudes are going to be a far worse threat on the road than any aspect of car design. You are driving over a tonne of metal at speed with some big consequences if you mess up.

To me that has little to do with the cars, because enthusiasts still use cars that assist them in driving competently. In the past I feel those that drove badly crashed and stopped driving rather than surviving and continuing.

Enthusiasts that I know drive old cars like a Porsche 924, or ones like the Lotus Elise that behave like an old car. Mine is a reproduction car from the 70's, along with a boring car to get to work and back. Modern cars are like riding a bike with mandatory stabilisers where you can never hone your balancing skills.

When I started learning if you booted the accelerator on a bend you lost grip. You would either understeer off in a front wheel drive car, or drift/spin a rear wheel drive car. So you learn some respect for the car and you don't do that. But spinning is bad so modern cars have anti skid systems. Now those people that don't consider driving a skill know that they can just floor it into a corner and "car magic" gets them around. Of course occasionally they hit a slippery patch and they have a massive off, and as their ignorance has so far been rewarded they will probably blame the car.

So people who in the past would have avoided being near the limit of handling of a car are now on it on a daily basis. ABS is another one, people happily tailgate because they think ABS will save them. So much for safety feature.

but in this country you don't need any ability in controlling a car before getting onto the road.

Whilst technically true, it is also quite possible (and common) for people to have their first lesson somewhere right out of the way. I used to live near an industrial estate that on a Sunday was full of learners but otherwise basically empty. There are plenty of such places around. I certainly wasn't stressed when I learnt. Perhaps if you have a bad instructor they will dump you in it, but I'm sure all countries have some of those who will find a way to stress you out.

[Noxvayl]

There most certainly are good instructors, but the way this country goes about education is a bit weird with respect to the requirements of the test and the things being taught by instructors. I had a good and bad instructor in this country, back home my dad taught me to drive. Thankfully my dad taught me to drive because the sum total of my learning through the instructor was to pass the test, which isn't difficult and is not what you should be learning, or how your learning should be focused.

A forum friend from Germany told me about the requirements to get your license in Germany, which seemed strange at the time but I think it is really good; to pass the "test" you have to drive for as long as required to master the skill, only when the instructor feels you are competent to drive by yourself will you get your license. It can take years depending on how often you have lessons, but you experience everything with a trained instructor and a second set of controls to assist in emergencies.

Studies in this country have shown that the Pass Plus program brings accident rates down where used, and more importantly reduces the amount of accidents where young drivers are the cause. I think that course shouldn't be an optional extra, it should be something that is part of the requirement for getting your full licence. I had both Pass Plus through Mercedes-benz world and got an AMG experience on my 21st birthday; I can honestly say that I would have been in 2 crashes had I not done those things; both incidents involved skidding, one on ice and the other aquaplaning, and the skills learnt in those activities gave me the confidence to handle the car when I lost control to prevent myself crashing; had I not done the driving experience, and pass plus program, my familiarity with skidding would of been non-existent and instead of being calm and focused I would of panicked and lost my split second opportunity to control the vehicle and escape without any damage to any cars or people. The incidents were easy for others to be involved in, but not easy to control your mass of metal because we seldom experience skidding during our driving tuition, we are left to figure out how to sort that out after we crash.

I'm not sure that an AMG experience for everyone is a good idea, might not be many AMGs left for others to use. Perhaps there could be publically sponsored track days, using old bangers, for children to get to learn the essentials of driving; that way the skills of driving are taught at an age where driving is still cool and it becomes something that gives them social reputation, which we all strive for; with driving skills being taught before people drive on public roads we could improve the skill of drivers without even changing the test, just give people the chance to learn outside of our public roads. With the way education is approached, in general around the world, I am not optimistic of beneficial changes being made; the production line nature of learning in schools is not conducive to mastery of skills, which is what we need.

[kalniel]

I think the question of driving skill is interesting. For me, driving skill isn't actually related to manual skill in car control at all - it's all about observation and knowing the best way to drive to maximise safety for you and those around you - decision making basically. Bad decisions and observation cause far more accidents than a lack of manual skill, and in almost all every day driving, they're the limiting factor rather than car control (old favourite - what's faster around a hedge-lined windy country road: a porsche or a fiesta? Answer: they're exactly the same because the limit is observation distance).

So all these safety features and ease of driving improvements are actually massively important if they allow more of the drivers attention to be focussed on observation and decision making. It's a similar kind of design process that's going into modern fast jets I believe.

[scaryjim]

I would buy a bike just to chain it to his by accident.

Oh, don't. I got to my bike yesterday to find some numpty had locked their huge (and generally ineffective) armoured cable right through my front brake cable. I was lucky I was on the foldy, I was able to remove the brake cable from the lever, thread it out of the lock, and reattach it. But the unbelievable lack of attention required to acidentally lock your bike to someone elses - I'm amazed that person managed to get to the right office building, tbh....

(assuming they did, of course... )

Have to be honest, I've never really noticed whether people park next to me or not. Then again, I'm not that fussed about having plenty of space because I'm usually in tiny little hire cars, so I tend to pull into those tiny little spaces up near the front that other people have ummed and ahhed about. And if I'm not in a tiny little hire car, I'm in a hired white van - and NO-ONE parks next to the white van man

[Noxvayl]

I agree with you kalniel, but I find that if someone has failed to master the skills required for driving that they are unlikely to improve other aspects of their driving. From my experience with family and friends the general consensus is that people just stop learning because it is either too much effort or they are disinclined to do so for whatever reason. My father and uncle constantly talk about life as one long lesson that will surprise you until you die, which might be your biggest surprise. I'm lucky in that respect, but I rarely see that sort of flexible or constant learning mindset in others; perhaps they have segmented off things they feel they can't learn any more about, I'm not sure, but it seems to be the hallmark of our somewhat troubled education system.

Observing, analysing/assessing and planning for possible trouble on the road while driving is most certainly a big factor in how safe our driving is. I find that too many roads in the Guildford area have hedges or otherwise unnecessary shrubs growing at junctions where they impair visibility. It is more dangerous to have a badly managed environment around the roads than it is to have a bad road surface but it seems like blind corners and T junctions without good visibility are the norm, at least in the area I drive. I find it ridiculous that in some places a wall is allowed to be so close to the road that if someone drove around the corner while someone walked they would likely collide, sometimes it seems shoulder shrugs are an olympic sport for councils...

I like to say I drive like an APE: I Asses the traffic, then Plan what I can do to avoid a possible problem and then Execute the plan should the situation anticipated occur. On my trip home from Portsmouth today it came in handy a number of times; I know where most on ramps are on the A3 because I travel it often, and when I spot a car entering the highway I implement a suitable plan for what the traffic is like at the time; today that happened to be speeding up to overtake a car in the left lane that I was in the process of overtaking to give him space to move over. Driving has become significantly easier for me since learning to do this, so I can understand its importance, but I don't think it is something people can do without being confident in their skills controlling the car.