What would make you drive an EV?

[jimbouk]

What would make you drive an EV?
- Available second hand for sub £5k
- Ability to drive from Bristol to Glasgow with only a couple of half an hour stops in case of a family emergency.

I think I'm going to be waiting a while! Saying that if the other half passes her test and we need to be a two car (practical) household then only the first statement holds.

[aramil]

#snip#

So. Hexussy people. What would convince you "yes, I'm fully on board with this"?

Nothing.

Issues with waste in building/dispossal, the fact that the added load to current & future planned electrical generation systems would not cope with mass use/charging of elec cars. (Nb the current grid system regularly has to draw in electricity from abroad at peak times)

The day I can take an electric car that's on empty and have to (unplanned/emergency) fill it up (in under ten mins), driver 300 miles nonstop, do whatever I need to do, and fill it back up (again under ten mins) and drive 300 miles back, is the day I may consider one.

Current electric cars are a short term answer to current car pollution problems. They just shift the waste and load onto other none environmentally friendly systems, be that chemical waste or intensive burning other fuels to generate power.

Until the UK/world can find a way of PRODUCING/STORING, CLEAN & RELIABLE energy, producing electric cars is a nice way of shifting the pollution of cars from cities to power generation & waste recycling sites, but as a way of " saving the planet" it does little or nothing. I have seen lots of proof of short term air quality gains if the majority of people in cities went electric, but there seems to be a lack of study into it's long term waste, or extra power generation/capacity.

To get a real picture surely electric cars should list waste values for one full charge = x amount of power which equals y amount of waste(carbon etc released via generation) + (and an average value for) waste produced (and energy used) from production and dispossal of car/batteries.

Wow ranty lol.

*unless you can solve the many issues of generation, storage, waste & charge times it is unlikely to replace a traditional car.

Not against electric cars, just on there own they are not the answer to much larger issues.

[DanceswithUnix]

For some time in the future: I don't need to own one to use one.

If Google offer a self driving electric car taxi service, then I would use it. They know already when I usually go to work, I'm sure they could have cars close to where they are wanted so a card could turn up on my phone at the time I usually go to work saying "Would you like to call a car? One can be with you in 2 minutes". It can drive itself to a charging station between jobs, so no range anxiety. Not my battery, so I wouldn't be bothered with replacement costs. It wouldn't consume space in my garage.

[CAT-THE-FIFTH]

A Moose in a top hat and a monocle.

[directhex]

What would make you drive an EV?
- Available second hand for sub £5k
- Ability to drive from Bristol to Glasgow with only a couple of half an hour stops in case of a family emergency.

I think I'm going to be waiting a while! Saying that if the other half passes her test and we need to be a two car (practical) household then only the first statement holds.

The range you want should be widely available by this time next year (e.g. the 30kWh Leaf should be widely sold by then), and second hand Leafs are available today for sub-6K. So I'd say it isn't so far in the future. Under 5 years.

[directhex]

Oh, and "public charging is free". I bet it ain't. Currently free to end users, maybe, but someone is paying for it, so if it's free to users, there's a subsidy going on somewhere. And I'd bet my left gonad that when market adoption reaches a suitable saturation level, "free" public charging will become anything but free. Governments love doing that kind of subsidisation to prompt public changes in behaviour. They'll subsidise activity A, and tax us out of activity B, and once their objectives are met, then .... wallop. Case in point? Tax on diesel.

Obviously someone is paying somewhere.

As-is, it's typically the owner of the site, as a way to get a captive audience for 20 minutes, for journey charging (e.g. Ecotricity fast chargers across large portions of the motorway network are 0-cost & will remain so). Or it's often included in the cost of parking for destination charging (e.g. Pod Point slow chargers at Chiltern Railways stations are free to use, but you pay for parking).

Some of the public charge network is, indeed, pay-for. Usually on a subscription/monthly/annual contract basis. Sometimes on PAYG. Worst case is being charged somewhere close to cost-price for the electricity, for example ChargeMaster's going rate for pay-for chargers is 9p per kWh (plus a 8GBP per month subscription for access to the "free" chargers), other networks can cost 10 or 20 a year for access.

The government has already pulled much of the subsidies for the public charge network operators, and some have closed or merged as a result - but as time goes by, it should still be measurably cheaper than using petrol.

[directhex]

To get a real picture surely electric cars should list waste values for one full charge = x amount of power which equals y amount of waste(carbon etc released via generation) + (and an average value for) waste produced (and energy used) from production and dispossal of car/batteries.

For a fair comparison, petrol cars should need to list the environmental impact of exploration, drilling, transport, refining, transport again, storage, and maintenance of the forecourt infrastructure. Right?

Depending on where you are in the world, more electricity gets used to refine enough petrol to send a petrol car 40 miles than the electricity it takes to drive an EV 40 miles - and that's ignoring entirely the environmental cost of actually using the petrol, or digging/shipping the crude oil.

[directhex]

Tbh it would have to be car owners with a garage for charging purposes.

All the chargers they sell in the UK are fully weatherised against anything the UK climate can throw at them. I'm happy charging the Volt in the pouring rain from the charger on my outside wall.

[jimbouk]

The range you want should be widely available by this time next year (e.g. the 30kWh Leaf should be widely sold by then), and second hand Leafs are available today for sub-6K. So I'd say it isn't so far in the future. Under 5 years.

155 mile range from full, 80% charge in 30 minutes, right ball-park. Assuming no traffic, meeting the quoted range (at 100% and 80% charge) and well placed charging points then it's potentially doable. I wonder if I can book an extended test drive and whether it includes breakdown cover for running out of juice...

[DR]

So I've been looking at Teslas - I've taken out a P85D for a weekend and a standard 85+

They are incredible - really fast and the torque is amazing.

We did a trip from St Albans to SCAN in one and back - we had to charge at a Supercharger en route, which isn't too much of a headache as we would normally stop for a coffee when on a journey you've just got to plan around it.

The reality is with the Tesla and ecotricity deal being struck that means more Superchargers. These things are insane - when my Tesla was empty I was throwing in juice at 250 miles an hour - which slows down as the battery fills up.

What don't I like? The options - they are expensive and you really "want" most of them to get the full luxury feeling.

Also the bit inbetween the driver and front passenger is a bit lethal - things move around in the small tray which is present.

Would I get one? I'm interested, reality is - I think with it being so new you are paying a huge premium for the tech, which of course has a price.

Also the long term depreciation is pretty high.

I used to do 30K miles a year - now its much lower so the fuel saving whilst a benefit isn't as bigger play for me anymore.

Long and short - I love them, I'd like one, then they dropped the P90D which frankly I can't wait to drive, but I will avoid as I am sure I'd end up spending a lot of money.

[aramil]

For a fair comparison, petrol cars should need to list the environmental impact of exploration, drilling, transport, refining, transport again, storage, and maintenance of the forecourt infrastructure. Right?

I never said it shouldn't. I just think that marketing elec cars as environmentally friendly is misleading.
Considering all the oil derivative products used (directly & indirectly) in there construction, (unless you are saying all the raw materials are naturally available onsite) could you not argue all those environmental costs apply to both.

I am still not saying there is not a market/use for them, but they are far from a solution for "the petrol car problem".

[scaryjim]

... could you not argue all those environmental costs apply to both. ....

You could, which would still make an electric car charged with 100% renewables more environmentally friendly. Particularly since the infrastructure for delivering the fuel requires a much lower overall carbon footprint.

But the other benefit of electric cars, particularly in urban environments, is the reduction of locally manifesting air-borne pollutants. I'm always impressed by how cleanly modern engines combust (most noticeably when sat in a jam on the motorway and I can smell someone's cigarette above the car fumes!), but burning fossil fuels creates fumes, and in busy urban areas the opportunity for local environmental improvement is a clear and direct advantage of electric vehicles.

[Gerrard]

What don't I like? The options - they are expensive and you really "want" most of them to get the full luxury feeling.

Also the bit inbetween the driver and front passenger is a bit lethal - things move around in the small tray which is present.

I personally didn't like the 17" touchscreen replacing the whole centre console. I prefer having buttons and switches in cars and a smaller touchscreen screen for the GPS. I didn't try it at night, but I wonder how much glow there would be from such a large screen?

[Saracen]

... but as time goes by, it should still be measurably cheaper than using petrol.

Will it, though?

Bear in mind that a large part of the cost of petrol is tax, and it is a large part because petrol currently (excuse pun) is a textbook example of a product with high inelasticity of demand, which makes it perfect for tax where the objective is revenue-raising, not behaviour modification. So .... move forward to when EV cars are dominant. If tax on petrol remains high, the incentive to switch is high, meaning government loses a huge amount of revenue as people switch. Government can then increase tax on charging, or chargers, or electricity across the board, to compensate, or reduce tax on petrol to make the incentive less. Or both.

Either way, the relative pricing is more about government policy decisions than market forces. And we don't know what those policy implications will be.

But that's not my reason for not being interested, at least, not yet. My mileage is not high enough for relative cost of 'fuel' to be a major issue. Convenience is, though. And as I've no current intention or need to buy a new car either way, the capital cost of switching would be huge.

[Saracen]

I personally didn't like the 17" touchscreen replacing the whole centre console. I prefer having buttons and switches in cars and a smaller touchscreen screen for the GPS. I didn't try it at night, but I wonder how much glow there would be from such a large screen?

Not tried it, but not much if implemented properly. Even standalone SatNavs at a couple if hundred quid or less have long had light sensors that switch into night mode at, well, night.

Personally, for most things, I just prefer switches, though. I can operate them by touch, never taking my eye off the road, and I'm not a fan of hugely complex multi-function context sensitive screens anyway. Most of it seems to be superfluous gimmickry, anyway.

[GuidoLS]

Given where I live, and the terrain, and the overall rural aspect of things, there's no real chance it will happen. (I live in the mountains of rural, western North Carolina, where the largest area of straight, flat terrain is the parking lot at the local Super Walmart - flat being the overall issue.) Having driven a Tesla that a friend owns, there's more than a few things I like about it, but there's also more than a few things I don't, which apply to the entire range, starting at the Leaf.

Not to appear to be a braggart, but gasoline (or petrol, if you prefer) is so inexpensive here that there's little financial incentive to make a change. As I stated in another post, we pay less for a gallon (think 3 1/2 liters) than you do for a liter - and that includes K1 (kerosene), all 3 grades of gasoline AND diesel - all at or below $2.00 per gallon.