What would make you drive an EV?

[directhex]

I'm curious to see what the Hexus collective's red-line issues are, regarding electric car tech as it stands & where it's heading.

Where we are now

Unless you drive a Tesla, a current gen all-electric charges 50 units (kWh) per hour at a public charger (e.g. motorway services), 7 units per hour at home on a dedicated charger or at an "all-day" car park like a train station. 3 units per hour off a mains plug.

Public charging is usually free, especially at service stations or large shopping places like IKEA. At home, you're paying your usual rate of 10-20p per unit.

1 unit will take you between 3 and 6 miles.

Unless you drive a Tesla, your EV has a ~20 unit battery (Kia Soul EV, BMW i3, Nissan Leaf, Renault Zoe, etc)

So. Depending on the weather, how aggressively you drive, etc, you can get a car today which goes 60-120 miles per charge, and a full charge at home costs about £2.40.

And an EV will get you a smoother ride and better 0-30 than a petrol car.

Where we're going

Current gen cars are starting to get bigger batteries. The 2016 Leaf is going up to 30 units.

Everyone's promising "200 mile" batteries at an affordable price in 2017 - Tesla Model 3, Chevy Bolt, etc.

The charger network is getting bigger, but expect an increase in pay-for chargers.

Several big brands, e.g. BMW, are saying they plan on having EVs or plug-in hybrids everywhere in their range within about a decade

What about plug-in hybrids?

Mostly these feel like traditional non-plug-in hybrids to drive, but with a bit more range (e.g. a Prius plug-in has a 10 mile battery vs a 1-mile battery on a basic Prius).

They've got much more complicated drivetrains than non-hybrids or BEVs, so expect higher maintenance costs.

You can eliminate "range anxiety" since it's easier to find petrol than a rapid charger, but performance may be impaired on pure-petrol use.

What about Hydrogen?

Not every brand is betting on EVs. Toyota and Honda are 100% behind hydrogen fuel cell cars and traditional NiMH hybrids.

Maybe they're just teething issues, but the early Hydrogen adopters are not giving good reports out of the US - and it's got an even steeper hill to climb in terms of infrastructure than the EV charge points do








So. Hexussy people. What would convince you "yes, I'm fully on board with this"?

[abaxas]

I'd like EVs that actually have a 200+ mile range. IE ones that do 200 miles in hilly conditions in winter.

Even tesla admit that car has a 100 miles range in cold conditions.

[Gerrard]

Initial cost; and then the possible long-term reoccurring costs with battery replacement that would no doubt effect resale cost. Having said that, we should be talking in the period of 7+ years life for these batteries, but at the moment these cars haven't been around long enough to get a good idea on how long they will actually last.

I personally don't do enough miles to justify getting a diesel car over a petrol, let alone an electric one. Therefore, the cost savings would not cover the initial premium. Which given the current range of EV's means you are kind of limitted on your practical returns. If you travelled 25 miles each way to work would probably be the ideal window.

Their time will come eventually. Sodium alternatives could be good for bringing the cost down and maybe being a bit more environmental. I personally think a hybrid is probably the way to go at the moment; probably with a KERS-like system of regenerative braking. However, that has it's own problems with that cycling the batteries a lot more would bring their lifespan down considerably. Again, supercapacitors could help in this field.

I think the potential is large (no pun intended). I personally wouldn't mind seeing something like a eco-diesel FWD car supplemented with a KERS in the back driving the rear wheels only, seperating powertrains to keep the complexity down, but would need brake-by-wire and some decent ECU code. In theory (back of fag-packet thinking here), you could double/triple the power for accelerating, but once cruising up to speed, you could benefit from the economy of the diesel engine. The weight shouldn't be too big to offset this (less than that of a normal person) and would give better weight distribution!

[peterb]

150 miles+ minimum range, ideally 200) and lower initial cost

Current gen EVs are fine for local commuting, but no good for long motorway trips, which means running two cars (or getting into some form of hiring agreement with a rental company) for longer trips, which takes away the convenience of a car ready to go.

[tepo]

150 miles+ minimum range, ideally 200) and lower initial cost

Current gen EVs are fine for local commuting, but no good for long motorway trips, which means running two cars (or getting into some form of hiring agreement with a rental company) for longer trips, which takes away the convenience of a car ready to go.

remember spyhunter ?

[DanceswithUnix]

I just don't like the idea of lugging heavy batteries about. But, if hybrid cars become the norm then plug-in is only a step away.

I remember as a kid thinking at some point all cars will be turbocharged, and am surprised it has taking decades to happen. I can see hybrid being the same for the same reasons. It makes the car more complex and expensive to make, but that just needs time for the technology to be refined and cost reduced to the point that it costs a few tanks of petrol, then everyone will want it. If a purchase tax reduction offsets the cost of the drivechain changes then it really becomes the obvious choice.

Full electric? Not convinced. It is all about energy density, and petrol/diesel is superb for that. I think the range anxiety problem was solved years ago, but when you suggest a nuclear powered car people get really jittery. Now that is energy density! Give me a serial hybrid with a few miles worth of batteries and a small reactor to keep it topped up, yeah I'll have one of those. Top up the tank every 5 years In fact with that energy density you could put some fans on the car and I can fly those long distances.

I won't say never though. I will be watching the new Tesla saloon when it comes out with much interest, but I suspect their idea of affordable still won't align with mine.

Now I have been *very* tempted to get a plugin bicycle. That gets around the problem of two cars, I can have a bike for getting to work and a car for lugging stuff and long trips and the occasional bad weather. Charging doesn't take long, and costs just a few pence. I should get a "proper" bicycle, but heck I'm getting old and that's a nasty old hill on the way home.

Plugging the car into a charger also isn't as big a problem as plugging a charger into the grid. This winter we are predicted to have a laughable 5% spare generating capacity in the UK. Plug all the cars in, and the lights will go out.

[tepo]

I remember as a kid thinking at some point all cars will be turbocharged, and am surprised it has taking decades to happen.

I can see hybrid being the same for the same reasons. It makes the car more complex and expensive to make, but that just needs time for the technology to be refined and cost reduced to the point that it costs a few tanks of petrol, then everyone will want it. If a purchase tax reduction offsets the cost of the drivechain changes then it really becomes the obvious choice.

Full electric? Not convinced. It is all about energy density, and petrol/diesel is superb for that. I think the range anxiety problem was solved years ago, but when you suggest a nuclear powered car people get really jittery. Now that is energy density! Give me a serial hybrid with a few miles worth of batteries and a small reactor to keep it topped up, yeah I'll have one of those. Top up the tank every 5 years

I just don't like the idea of lugging heavy batteries about.

Yup but I dont have a choice unless I build my own using cells as I had planned ( mobility scooter )
A lot of EV crowd like lipos for bikes,scooters etc

[Knoxville]

First and foremost would be lower initial cost, more refined SR motors, at least a 200 mile range and an EV that actually ticks the boxes for what I look for in a vehicle.

Currently there are only seven EV's that can actually do what my bag of bolts can do and those are JLR's test bed Defenders that live at the Eden Project. I love the idea of instant torque and a twelve ton towing capacity and that it's all packaged in a vehicle that I already know is fit to do anything I can do in my own right now, but they are nowhere near and will never see production.

I also need to see reliable data on the lifespan of the batteries as well as the cost of replacements. I've heard all sorts about lifespan depending on what kind of recharge points you use, whether you do a full charge every time or just enough to get you home etc. etc. If a replacement is going to cost me the thick end of £10k then they need to be lasting me at least ten years regardless of how I choose to charge them (within reason of course).

Currently, aside from hacking up a hybrid Range Rover, bob tailing it and adding a pick up bed though there isn't anything that resembles an EV that I know of that comes close to the requirements I have. Although I am aware I am part of a niche market. Were I simply using a vehicle to commute to a train station or into Birmingham every day then I'd say the market isn't far behind what I need, right now though there's nothing out there.

[jim]

Right now, nothing.

I don't have a garage, so I'd have to leave my car on a nearby street where there's a plug-in - and I'd be shocked if I'd be allowed to leave it there for more than 12 hours. Or I'd have to drag it all the way to a plug-in and leave it there for a while before starting every journey.

If I did have a garage, then my biggest issue would be that I don't as a rule buy new cars, but second-hand batteries are likely to be dreadful, so cost would be the primary concern. So I'd want something <£10k with at least 5 years of useful life in it, and at least 200 miles range in actual use.

If I win the lottery I'm buying a house with a garage and a Tesla, mind you.

[EpicZa]

The initial cost doesn't justify the savings just yet, give me 150 mile range on a £15,000 car and I'll but it outright.

We are gonna have some serious power grid problems if they really take off.

In my city there are also only 10 charging parking places.

[directhex]

I think the range anxiety problem was solved years ago, but when you suggest a nuclear powered car people get really jittery. Now that is energy density! Give me a serial hybrid with a few miles worth of batteries and a small reactor to keep it topped up, yeah I'll have one of those. Top up the tank every 5 years

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ford_Nucleon

[directhex]

I also need to see reliable data on the lifespan of the batteries as well as the cost of replacements. I've heard all sorts about lifespan depending on what kind of recharge points you use, whether you do a full charge every time or just enough to get you home etc. etc. If a replacement is going to cost me the thick end of £10k then they need to be lasting me at least ten years regardless of how I choose to charge them (within reason of course).

Would you prefer to buy a battery outright & its condition over time be your problem (e.g. Tesla), or lease the battery so you always have a top-condition one propelling you (e.g. Renault)?

[Knoxville]

Would you prefer to buy a battery outright & its condition over time be your problem (e.g. Tesla), or lease the battery so you always have a top-condition one propelling you (e.g. Renault)?

In a world where I can afford a Tesla and they quote lets say ten years battery life before degredation starts to kick in, ownership would be the route I'd take. Mainly because if I've got the disposable income to pony up the dough for a Tesla then I'm probably going to be upgrading or replacing it with the next big thing in five years or less. So why pay a lease on something I'm not going to need.

In a Renault though, or lets just say a runabout then probably the lease IF I think it's a reasonable price. It would have to come in at what I'd see as a lower price than running the petrol or diesel version though. Being real about things, my current vehicle chokes down dead dinosaurs at an alarming rate and my carbon footprint is quite a way down my list of concerns, so the benefits of running an EV to me are cost and cost alone. I know saving the planet SHOULD give me a warm and fuzzy feeling but that's my main concern.

I spend maybe £1500 on petrol a year now, and being electric wouldn't preclude the runabout from servicing costs like tyres, brakes etc. etc. so all that gets left out of the equation. In fact, servicing would be considerably less for the dino muncher. I don't pay road tax either and I'm in insurance group 3, so again I'm probably paying similar money there, if not a little less. Taking an average from your figures I'd spend maybe £100 a year on electricity charging an EV at home to cover the same distance I drive currently. So £1400 a year becomes the break even point and my theoretical limit. If a battery costs £10k that's seven years life to break even which means I want a guaranteed 12 years to feel like I'm making a worth while saving owning an EV. I can't say anything more than seven is good money because there's also the inconvenient limited range and charge times to take into account.

A petrol or diesel version of the runabout would cost a LOT less in fuel than my current vehicle too...

I know I just did a lot of 3a.m maths and I might be way off, I'm happy to be corrected if I am but the numbers aren't in a place where they gel for me yet. Especially given that there isn't a utilitarian EV that has four wheel drive, a low range box, at least a 3500kg towing capacity and that I can throw a 12000lb winch on the front of that exists as anything but a test bed. Even taking the demands I have of a vehicle out of the question I can't make it add up until technology moves along a little more.

[kalniel]

Good topic.

Range, available charging, and charge time/convenience. Oh and environmental factors.

There are some charge points in car parks where I live, but they're not free. So kind of pointless because I could charge at home for less. But the 55 miles commute to work and back is a bit of a problem, especially in cold weather and a bit of a hassle to have to do a full charge every night.

We also need to sort out where we're getting the electricity from in the short term - if we could cleanly generate a surplus then that's an added argument for it, but I'm not happy with the predicted generation over the next few years.

Ideally I'd like houses to be able to generate their own power - and use a standardised car battery as a home storage so I could swap between home and car (or at least plug the car in and use that as a home battery).

[DanceswithUnix]

Especially given that there isn't a utilitarian EV that has four wheel drive, a low range box, at least a 3500kg towing capacity and that I can throw a 12000lb winch on the front of that exists as anything but a test bed. Even taking the demands I have of a vehicle out of the question I can't make it add up until technology moves along a little more.

The only thing I can think of that would hold back an electric 4wd is the problem of water ingress. That isn't going to play well with a huge high voltage battery, but how many landies out there make use of a snorkel and drive up to the windows in water?

Shame as electric motors have full and controllable torque from zero rpm, which sounds like an ideal tow vehicle.

[Millennium]

I thought the actual carbon footprint and environmental cost of any electric vehicle was miles ahead of any potential saving during said vehicle's life, and that manufacturing wise there is no advantage to being an early electric adopter (in fact as I recall they use way more resources than a petrol car over their lifetime, for example).

Correct me if I'm wrong though. It's been a while.