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States a 10-40 fold increase above EPA limits, depending on drive cycle...
http://www3.epa.gov/otaq/cert/docume...a-09-18-15.pdf
States a 10-40 fold increase above EPA limits, depending on drive cycle...
GuidoLS (24-09-2015)
Far better source than a tech site - thanks for the link.Originally Posted by Butcher
So not 40x higher than reported... 40x higher than the legal maximum. Which is even worse. Yikes.
Have been discussing this with my peers.
If EU and US models of VAG diesel engine have the same emissions lockout stuff, then they would still be illegal in Europe.
Specifically, the California ARB Low Emission Vehicle II (LEV II) Standards allow for 0.05g/mi of NOx for passenger cars. The EPA report says they were 10-40x over the legal limit, so let's say between 0.5-2g/mi. Converted to g/km, which is how we measure in Europe, that's 0.31-1.24 g/km
The closest European emissions spec(s) is the Euro4 and Euro5 spec (LEV II applies for 2004 cars and later, Euro4 for 2005-2009, Euro 5 for 2009-2014). Euro 4 allows 0.25 g/km, Euro 5 allows 0.18 g/km.
If they are using the same emissions control here, then despite our less tight limits, they're still way over. So the question is "are VAG diesels in Europe 7x cleaner than in the USA?" - because if not, then they should be prepared to get screwed by the EU too.
Looks like legal firms in the UK are preparing themselves, can see PPI like adverts popping up.
Drive a VW? You may be entitled to £1,000+! Call now ...
this will turn into a proper mess.
you read it here first
"Turn into"?
That ship's already sailed, Zak.
In fact, it's just disappearing over the horizon into utter disaster, outrageous calamity and God-awful cockup, mixed together.
The only thing now is how widespread, and just how big the damage. But, think in terms of BP and the Gulf disaster, because it's in that ball park.
I don't agree with Alistair Campbell on much but I do with his Newsnight comments .... paraphrasing, he said "In my years in Downing Street, they had daily events described as a 'crisis', but maybe 5 events that really were full-blown crisis. And for at least VW, this really is full-blown crisis. Perhaps even existential".
He also said they're currently in headless chicken mode, and to deal with this, need to assume EVERYTHING is going to come out, and need to get themselves to "worst case", and THEY need to get it out before it gets dragged out of them. Trouble is, VW is truly vast, and most individuals will be firmly in cover-your-own-ass mode, afraid of being fired or even jail, and for the board, getting to the bottom of it all won't necessarily be easy. But they have to. Fast.
Ah..but you're missing the even bigger picture
The US government will now track down other similar issues.....other brands...
Oh, not missing it all all, and I agree. It's why I said "at least" for VW.
We don't know, yet, if others were at it, but the cynic in me says it won't just be VW. As I understand it, BMW have said they DO NOT do this, and are genuinely compliant. The same tests that caught out VW tend to support that. I haven't seen much comment from any other manufacturers, but frankly, who will believe protestations from ANY of them, after a series of banking scandals. The only members of the public, world-wide, that will take industry's word for it will be true morons, or those living in a cave with no external communications, for years. Or maybe, those remote Amazonian villages clinging to their traditional isolation.
The rest of us will want in-depth, thorough and visibly independent third-party testing verification. Hopefully, the days of car-industry lobbying having a big impact on either emissions standards, or the tesying regime, are now over. And long overdue that is. As long as national, EU and international legislators and regulators all finally grow a set of balls, and deploy them to stand up to industry. Knowing governments, I'm not holding my breath.
So VW have said they have the same emissions cheating on 11M vehicles total (of which 0.5M are in the US).
Globally, the extra NOx emissions from 11M cars doing an average distance are equivalent to an extra Drax coal-fired power plant, the biggest in the whole of Western Europe. Multiplied by 24.
it's like watching Tesco flounder....
it really is.
We're your friends... we offer the best of everything...
oh hang on... no we cheated
Tesco flounder for a living though, horse meat burgers, land grabs, bribery, tax dodging... VW have always seemed, from the outside at least, to be fairly honest, sensible, reliable company. Perhaps not squeaky clean but close. Them selling the equivalent of two dozen coal power stations as clean and economic vehicles is like finding out Innocent fruit juice is 90% orphan blood.
I still respect the deviousness of it all but this is going to be a hell of a knock to their image. If directhex's figures are even close to right it's one hell of a kick in the teeth to the environment too. I'd wondered if perhaps the belt tightening around carbon emissions had made 10-40 times more than the EPA standard sound worse than it was but clearly not!
Apparently for a long time we've had an issue where the regulators are saying "weird, we keep making our emissions regs tighter, and the new cars are all passing... why aren't the atmospheric measurements dropping to match?"
Guess we have our answer. And VW is big/influential enough that nobody was looking for an answer to the above too closely.
As my last 3 cars were VAG group cars, I'll say this:
They have been anything but squeaky clean for at least 10 years or more now.
"If everything in life was as reliable as a Volkswagen" then most things would not work!
They've had numerous problems that causes a recall in the States but the rest of the world is told to sod off. Probably something to do with the existence of class action lawsuits in the states methinks.
Examples: DSG gearboxes, faulty injectors.
They make some models with absolutely shocking reliability and wash their hands of them. Like the mid noughties passat and its famous electronic parking brake that likes to just let go some time after you're parked. Their multitronic gearboxes are more a when rather than an if they break in the first 100,000 miles.
Their reliability is average. Nothing more.
Why do I keep buying them? I take this into account. If I wanted a very reliable car it would also be very boring, very bad on fuel or not available with an automatic gearbox.
I just do a lot of research before buying.
The above also applies to BMW and Mercedes as well.
"In a perfect world... spammers would get caught, go to jail, and share a cell with many men who have enlarged their penises, taken Viagra and are looking for a new relationship."
However, you tend to get a much nicer interior in a VW.
Our bottom of the range TDI is a nice place to be and doesnt feel cheap like a fukus or equiv.
I can see the road tax on diesels being hiked. They will jump on any opportunity to squeeze more tax from people. The way to go these days is small turbo petrol engines. Cheap to run, low tax, light AND good performance
Anyway, it will be easy to see who is cheating by running independent, real-world tests.
Last edited by Mister; 28-09-2015 at 02:47 PM.
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