Right Tesla

[badass]

I had to really fight the desire to put a deposit down yesterday. I just can't justify buying one even when they do come out as my money has other priorities currently.

[Xlucine]

I want to see some kind of hot-swappable battery standard. Swapping out batteries at petrol stations ought to be just as simple as filling a hydrogen tank - you'll get a refund for the life left in your battery, and the amount you pay depends on the state of the battery you receive. Kinda like how you don't get to keep bottles of gas for camper vans and the like, you just swap the empty bottle for a full one.

Nope, as it currently stands, not worth it. In either cost, hassle of not being able to refuel and go, and the current environmental cost of building/generating electricity/chemical wastage etc are such a skirted round issue at the moment I am not convinced of their green credentials.

Generating electricity isn't an issue - efficiency of a gas power plant can reach up to 60%. Assuming 50% since they aren't all brand new, then the 7% transmission losses in the national grid, and assuming the car is 80% efficient (since storing energy in the batteries and driving an electric motor isn't too hard) then you'll get a total efficiency of 37%ish. This compares to 20-30% efficiency for a normal car, and that's before you factor in nuclear energy generation or other renewable sources

I'm with spreadie on this. Hydrogen makes so much more sense with regard to range, refill time, and existing infrastructure.

http://www.digitaltrends.com/cars/ar...ked-an-expert/

EDIT: It's worth pointing out we don't have an energy suppoly problem it's transmission and storage. You could make your own hydrogen at home from those solar cells you're not using during the day.

There's plenty of research into using solar power to create hydrocarbons, and I'd much rather see synthetic fuel take over as an energy storage medium. We'd be able to continue with existing vehicles, but they'll all be carbon neutral

[kalniel]

There's plenty of research into using solar power to create hydrocarbons,

It just takes a few million years

and I'd much rather see synthetic fuel take over as an energy storage medium. We'd be able to continue with existing vehicles, but they'll all be carbon neutral

Yes, biofuels/synthetic fuels are a possible short term step, but they suffer from the thermal efficiency and emissions problem for long term. We need to get rid of the latter as soon as possible, which may help stave off the long term effects of the former (we need to figure out a way to radiate more heat to space, if we're going to keep generating more heat on earth).

One of the best things about electric in my view is the potential for much greater thermal efficiency - you shouldn't need to waste heat through braking or oversized engines/too much weight etc. Stick an efficient motor on each wheel and you've got torque vectoring for both acceleration and braking, regeneration.. all sorts of things that'll make the driving better too. Maybe couple it with a bi-directional fuel cell for improved energy storage density.

[directhex]

Doesn't tick enough boxes for me, especially the box whereby I'd like to be able to drive more than 200 miles in a day.

200 miles between fuel stops.

You can easily do more than 200 in a day.

[Phage]

One of the best things about electric in my view is the potential for much greater thermal efficiency - you shouldn't need to waste heat through braking or oversized engines/too much weight etc. Stick an efficient motor on each wheel and you've got torque vectoring for both acceleration and braking, regeneration.. all sorts of things that'll make the driving better too. Maybe couple it with a bi-directional fuel cell for improved energy storage density.

Exactly. I quite fancy the Honda idea. Fuel up at home with the spare power from your PV array.

[directhex]

There are multiple issues, which aren't related, but factor into deciding whether or not something like a Tesla Model 3 is a good idea.

• Is it affordable to buy? - most EVs are expensive. The Model 3 will start at 30k (without subsidy - there may be no subsidy by the time it ships, it may still be £4.5k, it may be somewhere in between). An i3 starts at 30k too.That's an Audi A5 or BMW 4 series.
• Is it affordable to run? - charging a Model 3 to full at home will run you £6 (or about 3p per mile). Work out how that compares to driving a petrol car, even an efficient one getting more than 40mpg (11p/mile). If you drive inside London, factor in the congestion charge exemption. Factor in the free motorway charging. Factor in free charging at your workplace. Factor in an £8 a month subscription to charging on a major network like Polar (which includes red zone parking in MK, as an example). If we use a London commuter as an example, assume you pay for about half your electric miles and fill the rest up en route or at your workplace, and do 10k miles/year, that's £150 a year for the EV and £4000 for a 40mpg car with an annual congestion charge sub. Offset that against the cost of the vehicle.
• Do you have time to charge? - the big argument petrol fans use for hydrogen is how long it takes to charge. Charging at home it basically doesn't matter (but best-case filling a Model 3 at home or work will take 8 and a half hours). Charging mid-route you're looking at about 25 minutes to Supercharge a Model 3 from 0-80%, an hour for a different EV with comparable battery (e.g. Opel Ampera-E). Does your commuting pattern allow for that? Can you afford to stop for 25-60 minutes every 170 journey miles?
• Can you charge at home? - do you have a garage, or driveway, or external wall you can get a charge point installed on?
• Is it fun to drive? - #### yes. Better than any petrol car you could name. Any.You'll leave anything standing at the lights. You might find the torque curve weird, but nothing compares for from-zero acceleration, and there are enough reaction vids on Youtube to attest to that.

[directhex]

Exactly. I quite fancy the Honda idea. Fuel up at home with the spare power from your PV array.

Reports from Honda's test markets are overwhelmingly negative - mostly relating to the terrible state of the refuelling network.

Here in the UK we have a whopping 13 places to fill up a fuel cell car. France has 7. The US has a whopping 43 (mostly in the same city in California, which are mostly long-term broken, hence my above comment)

[kalniel]

Reports from Honda's test markets are overwhelmingly negative - mostly relating to the terrible state of the refuelling network.

Here in the UK we have a whopping 13 places to fill up a fuel cell car. France has 7. The US has a whopping 43 (mostly in the same city in California, which are mostly long-term broken, hence my above comment)

Hydrogen should be a preferred, but not only, fuel option - water+electricity would be a nice backup

[cheesemp]

Tempting but a lot of money. I'd have to wait and see what the grants are like in 2018 before I make a jump! No point in keeping a £1000 locked up when I likely won't be able to afford the car anyway...

[Jowsey]

Whilst I'm not at a place in my life where I can purchase a £35k car, by 2018 I may just be in a position to put one on a 3 year lease.

I think the ideal handling of one of these is in a 2 car family. It's always nice to have the ability to make very long journeys and, while I appreciate it's advisable to stop and rest and to stretch the legs regularly (certainly within the 200 mile journey distance) during which time you can pop the charger on and juice it up for half an hour, I just don't believe the electric infrastructure is widespread enough yet.

It's a catch 22 though, people don't buy electric cars as charging points are not widespread and companies do not install lots of charging points as there isn't many electric cars on the roads. Someone needs to take the big jump!


I work as an auditor so I'm regularly doing more miles than the average commuter (I'd assume) and at times it's irregular but I would be very confident that IF this car genuinely has 200 miles between recharges whilst being driven reasonably that I wouldn't struggle with that.

Just need to get my insurance history all sparkly...

[EndlessWaves]

I would expect by 2018 a 215 mile range will be nothing special. A Zoe or Leaf already offers two thirds of that. It wouldn't surprise me if the Model 3 didn't have the largest battery among electric cars launched that year.

[aramil]

*snip*
Generating electricity isn't an issue -

It is when the country does not generate enough electricity to cover peak periods without running stations harder (effecting their efficiency), if everyone also wanted to charge a car as well.....

All electric cars do is shift the pollution from local (exhaust gas) to concentrated (power generation). We (in this country) have such a poor renewable setup that it could not be relied upon to cover the uptake of electric cars. I agree it's an idea with a good environmental idea at its heart, but unless you can solve clean generation capacity and how to deal with the chemical waste of its storage mediums (in both production and disposal) it on a world/country view has very little effect, it just shifts the problems elsewhere. (Yes I know petrol cars have batteries to, but compared to electric cars they are like button batteries)

I would like to know how "if everyone/a majority went electric" how would we deal with the extra supply/generation demand and chemical waste.

I would love these companies involved in greener/cleaner tech to be open and be having talks about this now, other wise we are just storing another different problem for future generations to deal with. It's all just a little short term for me.

And as someone who on occasion has to travel in a car a lot and gets paid by the hour, but not for travelling, 30/60 mins waiting around not getting paid is not an option.

Not trying to completely write off electric cars, but we are a long long way off making this "green" and a proper replacement for a petrol car.

[kalniel]

It is when the country does not generate enough electricity to cover peak periods without running stations harder (effecting their efficiency), if everyone also wanted to charge a car as well.....

Well we have inconsistent supply and demand. What we need is something that can store peak supply and give it to peak demand.. like a battery sitting in a car. Plug it in at work during the day somewhere that's generating from solar and you're helping use peak supply. Plug it in at home in the evening and you maybe it could help cut your home draw from the grid in peak periods.

[aramil]

Well we have inconsistent supply and demand. What we need is something that can store peak supply and give it to peak demand.. like a battery sitting in a car. Plug it in at work during the day somewhere that's generating from solar and you're helping use peak supply. Plug it in at home in the evening and you maybe it could help cut your home draw from the grid in peak periods.

Well when we can store massive amounts of electricity efficiently we solve a whole host of issues with renewable energy. As yet though...

So how big is your solar farm at work to charge everyone's car? Like I said love the idea but practically the technology we currently use is not up to the task. So trying to run before we can walk. If you can't produce & store efficiently clean reliable energy for your "green" car then you are not solving the problem in the first place.

In the UK at the moment you might as well have a car run on a gas generator and cut out the transmission losses.

[kalniel]

So how big is your solar farm at work to charge everyone's car? Like I said love the idea but practically the technology we currently use is not up to the task. So trying to run before we can walk. If you can't produce & store efficiently clean reliable energy for your "green" car then you are not solving the problem in the first place.

Well actually... but where I work is a little outside of the norm.

[aramil]

Well actually... but where I work is a little outside of the norm.

Well they do say there is always one.....