The American Goverment are tightening the charges on the VW boys

[Xlucine]

Oh yeah, I keep forgetting that Ford is a US company... probably because I only ever see the cheaper piles of junk they make, which frequently break and cost the customers loads of money when we have to fix them....

I'd absolutely LOVE something like a 3rd Gen Dodge Charger, though. Anything that sounds like that!!
One customer brought us his '68 Mustang GT/CS, once... not as nice-sounding as the Dodge and he picked the awful mustard colour, but still respectfully impressive.


Yeah yeah yeah, I keep hearing this... What they forget is that most of us cannot afford to drop £13,000 on a brand new car, that we do far more miles than these things can manage on even two charges, and that we don't have anywhere to plug them in.

In fact, I haven't seen a single council plan for EV charging in terraced street areas... Most residents would need about 600m of charging cable. That's assuming I don't get 8 hours car charging time added to my daily work hours and that I get home early enough to actually find a parking space within 3 streets of my house...

Most people can easily cover their commute with an EV:
http://webarchive.nationalarchives.g...d-to-work.html
Average distance for a commute to work is just 15km. That distance is as the crow flies, so with the real distance on road probably around double that and covering outward and return journeys it's only 37.5mi, which is easily within the range of the cheapest nissan leaf - even a g-wiz running on lead acid batteries should be able to manage that!

You're correct that terraced houses don't have an easy solution to charging, and they are more expensive, but over time they'll become a bigger proportion of the used market. 10 years ago, not many people could afford to buy a new car the met all the latest emissions and safety standards, but now the majority of cars on the road meet the standards of 10 years ago

[scaryjim]

.... Average distance for a commute to work is just 15km. ...

If everyone biked you'd have virtually no pollution and you'd fit about 4x as many people on the road (I count single-occupied cars as I bike past them on the way to work....).

[directhex]

In fact, I haven't seen a single council plan for EV charging in terraced street areas...

Oxford City Council's plan for EV charging in terraced street areas

[directhex]

Last estimate I saw was appx 40 deaths. Not thousands.

In the US. Where VW diesels are rare.

EU estimates are over 1k.

http://news.mit.edu/2017/volkswagen-...hs-europe-0303

Should VW be allowed to kill over a thousand people through intentional deception, without repercussions?

[Ttaskmaster]

Most people can easily cover their commute with an EV:

Yeah?
That's nice.
Now what do I do once I get to work? I still have at least another 220 miles or so left to drive, as the crow flies, although I can sometimes do over 600 miles in a day, all told.
If I have to keep stopping even for half an hour every time I need to recharge, that will rack up my hours... assuming I don't need to run anything else on the vehicle, such as the heater or the computer kit, and that there's a charging station I am able to use/afford...

Do I have a separate mileage-capable car for work?
Do I have a third, non-work car for when I go away on family holidays and longer trips to see friends?

which is easily within the range of the cheapest nissan leaf - even a g-wiz running on lead acid batteries should be able to manage that!

Who cares? I can't afford the cheapest Nissan Leaf, so it's not an option.

You're correct that terraced houses don't have an easy solution to charging, and they are more expensive, but over time they'll become a bigger proportion of the used market.

Which is still of naff-all use if you can't get it plugged in to charge.
Terraced housing, those in flats, pretty much anyone without their own driveway having serious problems with an EV.

10 years ago, not many people could afford to buy a new car the met all the latest emissions and safety standards, but now the majority of cars on the road meet the standards of 10 years ago

......err..... is that supposed to be progress? Serious question, as I have no iea what you're getting at, there. Sounds like people still cannot afford new cars that meet today's emissions and safety standards, if only the majority meet them from 10 years ago.

[Saracen]

There's a vibrant market for those who can afford twin or even quad Titan X GPUs, too... doesn't mean we should now ban lesser cards.
....

And nor did I suggest banning anything.

Quad Titan X's are a bit immaterial, just as people buying Ferraris or Aston Martins are to the £13k market. However, someone spending £15k, £20k, £30k, on a new car today is buying a car that will be available at a lot less than £13k in a few years, just as a buyer of a £13k new car today is also a potential buyer of 2 or 3 year old £20k car.

[Ttaskmaster]

And nor did I suggest banning anything.

That seems to be the general idea behind proposals to price diesels off the road, without outright banning them and so losing too many votes...

buying a car that will be available at a lot less than £13k in a few years

But with a smaller market than you might expect, as it will be 2 or 3 more generations of 2nd-hand EVs before what the likes of me can afford will actually serve as suitable replacements...
I think EVs will be a thing of the past before we all actually get to having them, TBH.

Oxford link[/url]

Ohh, would ya look at that.....
Still can't afford it, though.

In fact, part of me almost looks forward to running over all those people walking around on their iPhones, because they can't hear my vehicle approach and the weird law about sounding your horn after hours supposedly prohibits fitting a noise-making device to the car...

But then, they'll probably try and 'persuade' motorcycles off the road next, so they can go burn in the naughty place, as far as I'm concerned!!

[Saracen]

That seems to be the general idea behind proposals to price diesels off the road, without outright banning them and so losing too many votes...

Perhaps. it certainly wouldn't be the first time government sought to create behavioural change via taxes/charges. For instance, duty on tobacco products.

Nonetheless, cars have to come in new before they filter down to the used market, and it will take time, especially in such a big market.

....

But with a smaller market than you might expect, as it will be 2 or 3 more generations of 2nd-hand EVs before what the likes of me can afford will actually serve as suitable replacements...
I think EVs will be a thing of the past before we all actually get to having them, TBH.

With the best will in the world, it'd be presumptuous of me to assume what "the likes of you" can or cannot afford. But from that, I take it £13k on a new car is .... ummmm .... optimistic. At least, for now. You never know what the future holds.

But without making such assumptions, I'd suggest if £13k on a new car is pushing it, you're very likely to be not buying new, and a very considerable portion of new car sales are at or above, often well above, that point. While EVs are very scarce, used, that suggests those at that segment of the market aren't buying EVs at all.

But a very large number of new car buyers could, and might, buy EV if the product offerings were right. For me, and my needs, they still aren't.

[Xlucine]

Yeah?
That's nice.
Now what do I do once I get to work? I still have at least another 220 miles or so left to drive, as the crow flies, although I can sometimes do over 600 miles in a day, all told.
If I have to keep stopping even for half an hour every time I need to recharge, that will rack up my hours... assuming I don't need to run anything else on the vehicle, such as the heater or the computer kit, and that there's a charging station I am able to use/afford...

Do I have a separate mileage-capable car for work?
Do I have a third, non-work car for when I go away on family holidays and longer trips to see friends?


Who cares? I can't afford the cheapest Nissan Leaf, so it's not an option.


Which is still of naff-all use if you can't get it plugged in to charge.
Terraced housing, those in flats, pretty much anyone without their own driveway having serious problems with an EV.


......err..... is that supposed to be progress? Serious question, as I have no iea what you're getting at, there. Sounds like people still cannot afford new cars that meet today's emissions and safety standards, if only the majority meet them from 10 years ago.

You said: "most of us ... do far more miles than these things can manage on even two charges". You can boast about doing a million miles a week all you like, but that has nothing to do with whether or not most people will be troubled by the range on an EV

Most people today cannot afford an electric car. This does not mean that most people will never be able to afford an electric car, just as no-one being able to afford a new car 10 years ago does not mean that everyone drives around in exactly the same cars they were in 10 years ago. Give it a couple of years for EVs to work through to the second hand market and most people will easily afford one.

[peterb]

If the price was right, I'd trade in my diesel for an electric car for my local journeys. For longer ones, either careful planning taking in quick charge points, or hire an I/C car for a few days, or just use public transport. Train journeys can be absurdly cheap if you plan in advance.

[Saracen]

If the price was right, I'd trade in my diesel for an electric car for my local journeys. For longer ones, either careful planning taking in quick charge points, or hire an I/C car for a few days, or just use public transport. Train journeys can be absurdly cheap if you plan in advance.

That's one approach, and a rational one ..)) but based on patterns of usage that fit you needs. Ours are different.

We don't do a huge mileage, but do have regular trips of 120 miles, ish, each way, and at sometimes unpredictable moments, and extremely short notice, making it impossible to plan ahead to book hire cars. In large part, this is due to an elderly relative, the wife's mum, who's been taken very ill at zero notice, several times. On one occasion, I had to ring the wife at work and get her to come home mid-morning. 45 minures after she got home, we were packed, car-loaded and on our way. For a month. Also, because we have considerable versatility on what we do and whenwe do it, we prefer to not plan too much ahead. Last year, we went away for a long weekend and came back six weeks later. What can I say, we enjoyed ourselves.

For our normal, general standard mileage, we could make do with an EV, probably easily. Or even without a car at all, relying on cabs, online grocery shopping, and the local butcher etc to deliver, which he would. In a few years, nwe may well do exactly that.

But the main benefit, for us, of having a car at all is the freedom to do what we want, when we want, and mucking about with car hire and planning routes round charge points does not fit in with the principle of "just go". It's too much like work.

[Saracen]

Give it a couple of years for EVs to work through to the second hand market and most people will easily afford one.

Indeed.

Though, on cars a few years old and "affordable", one issue with EVs that needs sorting is the potential for a crippling cost to replace battery packs. Buying a relatively cheap few years old EV is going to be a bit of a lottery if you run the risk of a battery replacement costing more than the car, rendering the car effectively junk. And I wonder what that risk will do to the the depreciation rates of an EV more than, say, 3-5 years old?

There's a reason why some large-engined high-end cars get dirt cheap to buy after a given point in time - either running costs or repair costs are do high that those that can afford them are in newer models, and those that can't, can't afford more than rock bottom prices. Until those old cars become classics, of course, at which point they can, in good condition, be worth fortunes.

[DanceswithUnix]

Most people can easily cover their commute with an EV:
http://webarchive.nationalarchives.g...d-to-work.html
Average distance for a commute to work is just 15km. That distance is as the crow flies, so with the real distance on road probably around double that and covering outward and return journeys it's only 37.5mi, which is easily within the range of the cheapest nissan leaf - even a g-wiz running on lead acid batteries should be able to manage that!

I thought that was the point of plug in hybrids. You can do the short commute on battery, but if you need to it can fire up the IC engine and go further. That IC engine is going to be the weight of an extra adult always in the car so not ideal, but in the modern market where 1.5T is considered a small car that isn't a great overhead.

Was interested to see a big Tesla charging station in Wales when going to visit the inlaws recently. That might be workable for general use now, relying on the wife's big V6 which I think is now into appreciating classic status if we want to head somewhere odd.

[TeePee]

The economics of EVs fail. For the price of a base model Chevy Volt, you can buy a base model Camaro and petrol for 90,000 miles. Even if the electricity were free, and you never drove over 30 miles, the EV is a poor financial choice.

That said, I do appreciate the people spending thousands of dollars to make the environment better, and if they'd stay out of the passing lanes too, they're good people.

[scaryjim]

... For the price of a base model Chevy Volt, you can buy a base model Camaro and petrol for 90,000 miles. ...

Is that still true in the UK though? I thought US fuel prices were significantly lower than ours...?

[Xlucine]

Chevvy doesn't sell its full range in the UK, so a direct comparison like that is harder. A leaf starts at £17k, which is well under the £37k that you need for a camaro or mustang*. The leaf is pretty naff by EV standards, but other EVs are still cheaper than the US muscle: £25k for a hyundai IONIQ, and the $35k price for a tesla model 3 (with the usual $:£ exchange rate of 20% VAT and then direct currency conversion, cba to look up the specifics of the taxes involved) works out to ~£34kish

I thought that was the point of plug in hybrids. You can do the short commute on battery, but if you need to it can fire up the IC engine and go further. That IC engine is going to be the weight of an extra adult always in the car so not ideal, but in the modern market where 1.5T is considered a small car that isn't a great overhead.

Was interested to see a big Tesla charging station in Wales when going to visit the inlaws recently. That might be workable for general use now, relying on the wife's big V6 which I think is now into appreciating classic status if we want to head somewhere odd.

You get better efficiency out of the charging motor as well, since it could be run at a fixed RPM. I'd like to see an EV with an optional generator module - when you're commuting it can sit in your garage, saving weight, and when you've got a long journey you can wheel it out and fit it to your EV. You could have a usable boot under the bonnet normally, and this IC motor gets fitted there when needed