Moved to electric: My Tesla Adventure

[directhex]

Chargers built into lamp posts is one on-street strategy

[DanceswithUnix]

But "buy to let" cars isn't what's under discussion. It's renting out your car for short-term "taxi" use by utter unknowns.

Just trying to make sure you see the big picture, it isn't all about you

We see the word "disruptive" thrown about way too much in computing for minor increments in technology, but this is a case where where it could well apply. It doesn't fit your current use case of cars, but it isn't a current usage of a car so that isn't surprising. The point is that it might fit into enough people's car usage.

Think of what people commonly want from a car:
1/ To go shopping
2/ Get to work and back
3/ Status symbol by being newer than what the neighbours have on their drive
4/ A toy for people who enjoy driving

There are probably enough people for who a car is utility enough that they don't bother, but if they could have one for free because it paid for itself that is a factor in getting one. People who think having a depreciating asset idle on the drive isn't acceptable. Possibly they get a luxury car upgrade, Focus to Tesla paid for by taxi rides.

[Saracen]

Just trying to make sure you see the big picture, it isn't all about you

We see the word "disruptive" thrown about way too much in computing for minor increments in technology, but this is a case where where it could well apply. It doesn't fit your current use case of cars, but it isn't a current usage of a car so that isn't surprising. The point is that it might fit into enough people's car usage.

Think of what people commonly want from a car:
1/ To go shopping
2/ Get to work and back
3/ Status symbol by being newer than what the neighbours have on their drive
4/ A toy for people who enjoy driving

There are probably enough people for who a car is utility enough that they don't bother, but if they could have one for free because it paid for itself that is a factor in getting one. People who think having a depreciating asset idle on the drive isn't acceptable. Possibly they get a luxury car upgrade, Focus to Tesla paid for by taxi rides.

Of course it's not all about me, but the only decision I have control over is my one. So, if I explain why, for me, I wouldn't do this, it is at least plausible that either a lot of other people either wouldn't, or can explain why their decision would be different.

Believe it or not, the REASON I have repeatedly stressed the "for me" or "personally" bit is that I'm fully aware it's not just about me. But it seems to me that the only opinion ANYBODY here can express is their own.

So, we're talking about a Tesla plan. Currently, and again I stressed 'for current generations', that means we're talking about high-end cars, price-wise. By which I man, what, roughly £65k to £165k?

That's equivalent tp upper mid-range, to high end BMW, Mercedes, etc.

My contention is that very, VERY few people with the wherewithal to buy cars in that category will care enough about a modest revenue from renting their car out as a taxi to be prepared to do so. Clearly, if you can afford cars in that category, you aren't worrying about how to pay the gas bill or put food on the table. Nobody, other than a complete moron, spends that on a car, S opposed to a meagre, say, £30-£40k, on a lower mid-range Beemer or Merc, or high-end VW, Toyora, etc, unless the marginal value of the extra pound is, to them, pretty low. And if the marginal value is pretty low, then the marhinal value of the few quid in income from renting out your pride and joy is low.

Now, the "big picture" you refer to. If you mean, some years in the future, will there be a plethora of automated, self-driving electric cars where you can hail (or summon) one, Uber-like, and go from A to B then pay, get out and forget it? Very possibly.

But I'll make you a bet. They won't be, in real terms, in the current £65k-£165k range. They will be at or close to 'basic' spec. And, unless government explicitly outlaws them, those that can afford it will still have their own personal, private automated, self-driving electric car, which will be in that upper price group and the fittings and equipment level will still duly differentiate them and they still won't be renting them out as taxi's.

As for me personally, if I'm still breathing by then, I expect to be in the "hail when you need one" category. Why? Because as I get older I'm finding both my need to and inclination to leave home at all decreasing. I don't need to for work any more, and the occasions when I choose to are minimal. And, for social reasons, I don't do either a huge number of journeys or much of a mileage.

So if I want to get to/from the local supermarket, or whatever, I'd cheerfully summon one of those basic models, and for long journeys, I'd cheerfully pay a premium to summon an Uber-type S-Class or similar. And not have a car at all.

But what I won't do, now or in the future, is buy a premium price car and rent it out.

But I'd be interested to see the logic of why someone that can afford a premium-priced car would then rent it out. I think they'll either (for £65k to £165k) buy between 2 and 8 basic cars and rent them out full-time, or they'll view the benefit of not having some oik puke up, ir smash up, yoy expensive personal ride as of more value than the modest (compared to cost) profit margin on renting it out.

But please feel free to point out why your personal opinion of the "big picture" is more valid than my personal opinion of it.

[tfboy]

I reckon the whole concept of people able to rent out their cars while at work is far more for the Model 3 target. I don't know whether many will want to do it with Model S / X cars...

However, I've been in discussion with a certain Tesla-only car rental company operating mainly out of airports, and they're now taking on renting out your own car whilst you're away. Really interesting concept. I pay for them to park / store / clean / charge my car. But whilst I'm away, and only if I sign up for it, I can offer to make my car available for hire. In that case, as well as hiring their own cars, they offer customers' cars too, paying a premium as they're more highly specced. I then get a payout for the rental which covers way more that what I pay for them to look after it.

They have a pretty strict rental policy with insurance and everything covered, so I am tempted when I fly away for a week. If my car gets hired out for a day, someone else gets to enjoy it, and I get some revenue for its use. This is totally separate and nothing to do with autonomous driving, but the model is there.

[Saracen]

I reckon the whole concept of people able to rent out their cars while at work is far more for the Model 3 target. I don't know whether many will want to do it with Model S / X cars...

However, I've been in discussion with a certain Tesla-only car rental company operating mainly out of airports, and they're now taking on renting out your own car whilst you're away. Really interesting concept. I pay for them to park / store / clean / charge my car. But whilst I'm away, and only if I sign up for it, I can offer to make my car available for hire. In that case, as well as hiring their own cars, they offer customers' cars too, paying a premium as they're more highly specced. I then get a payout for the rental which covers way more that what I pay for them to look after it.

They have a pretty strict rental policy with insurance and everything covered, so I am tempted when I fly away for a week. If my car gets hired out for a day, someone else gets to enjoy it, and I get some revenue for its use. This is totally separate and nothing to do with autonomous driving, but the model is there.

Do you really trust some stranger with your £150k (-ish) car, though? Do you trust them to, first, be able to handle the performance, and second, treat with the respect you would?

I hear you abour insurance, etc, but (IMHO) it's not really adequate. Suppose the try to show off, and wrap it around an oak tree. You've got the hassle and aggravation of sorting it out, and your car will never feel the same afterwards anyway.

I agree it's far more likely at the Model 3 end, but there's a problem there, too, IMHO. It's the psychology.

In general, if you can afford a £150k car, and are interested enough to spend that, and to do it on ...what was it, the "ludicrous' option, yet at the same time it's a carefully considered purchase not a whim, then you're probably pretty car-centric. You're probably in the 'wealthy enough to afford it, but it's an aspirational thing' category.

By contrast, if you were wondering past the showroom and though "Oooh, cool, I'll have one" then it's a whim.

The difference, really, is whether it matters to you. I can see the latter renting it out without being bothered, but then, if it's a whim it's probably one of a dozen or more such cars and if you've that kind of wealth, the marginal value to you of the rental income is probably far less than the risk of personal inconvenience.

The psychology bit is that if you've got a Model 3 (when available) it's probably because you can't afford an S or X, in ehich case, the 3 is as aspirational, and important, to them as your version is to you.

I can see the appeal to the rental company. The get a part of the revenue stream without having to invest the capital. That's a no-brainer.


Two things though. There obviously is some market for renting out high end cars. After all, you can rent a Ferrari now. At a price. Ever seen the state of some "supercar" rentals?

Secondly, where I can see a potential, even at the £150k end, is where you can rent like-for-like with what you own. Many of my concerns would be significantly less if I knew the 'oik' wanting to rent my £150k Tesla already owned one himself. So, I leave mine at Heathrow, for rental, and I rent one for a few days at Monaco, or wherever. But that strikes me as pretty niche.

Anyway, I guess time will tell if it works.

[Saracen]

BTW, picking up my new electric vehicle, hopefully, tomorrow. It's not as quick as yours, though.

[spacein_vader]

BTW, picking up my new electric vehicle, hopefully, tomorrow. It's not as quick as yours, though.

I got a new one last week, big upgrade on my current one. It has 5 cutting heights instead of 3.

[Saracen]

I got a new one last week, big upgrade on my current one. It has 5 cutting heights instead of 3.

Got you beat, then. 6 heights.

Oh, and a strimmer/brushcutter, too.

I don't plan on renting it out, though.

Don't expect to see me cruising the fast lane of tbe M1 anytime soon.

[spacein_vader]

Got you beat, then. 6 heights.

Oh, and a strimmer/brushcutter, too.

I don't plan on renting it out, though.

Don't expect to see me cruising the fast lane of tbe M1 anytime soon.

I'm jealous.

Wouldn't go as far as renting it out but wouldn't be averse to the neighbours borrowing it in a pinch.

[peterb]

I'm reminded of the adage "there isn't a 4x4 made that will go where you can take a rental car"

[tfboy]

Do you really trust some stranger with your £150k (-ish) car, though? Do you trust them to, first, be able to handle the performance, and second, treat with the respect you would?

I hear you abour insurance, etc, but (IMHO) it's not really adequate. Suppose the try to show off, and wrap it around an oak tree. You've got the hassle and aggravation of sorting it out, and your car will never feel the same afterwards anyway.

I agree it's far more likely at the Model 3 end, but there's a problem there, too, IMHO. It's the psychology.

In general, if you can afford a £150k car, and are interested enough to spend that, and to do it on ...what was it, the "ludicrous' option, yet at the same time it's a carefully considered purchase not a whim, then you're probably pretty car-centric. You're probably in the 'wealthy enough to afford it, but it's an aspirational thing' category.

By contrast, if you were wondering past the showroom and though "Oooh, cool, I'll have one" then it's a whim.

The difference, really, is whether it matters to you. I can see the latter renting it out without being bothered, but then, if it's a whim it's probably one of a dozen or more such cars and if you've that kind of wealth, the marginal value to you of the rental income is probably far less than the risk of personal inconvenience.

The psychology bit is that if you've got a Model 3 (when available) it's probably because you can't afford an S or X, in ehich case, the 3 is as aspirational, and important, to them as your version is to you.

I can see the appeal to the rental company. The get a part of the revenue stream without having to invest the capital. That's a no-brainer.


Two things though. There obviously is some market for renting out high end cars. After all, you can rent a Ferrari now. At a price. Ever seen the state of some "supercar" rentals?

Secondly, where I can see a potential, even at the £150k end, is where you can rent like-for-like with what you own. Many of my concerns would be significantly less if I knew the 'oik' wanting to rent my £150k Tesla already owned one himself. So, I leave mine at Heathrow, for rental, and I rent one for a few days at Monaco, or wherever. But that strikes me as pretty niche.

Anyway, I guess time will tell if it works.

I have been thinking long and hard about this. I volunteered for the trial and have received some litterature they've put together that covers the rental stuff. I've had long discussions with the owner as to how best go about this, limiting risk, etc.

The normal Tesla rental is £150/day all in. If a client decides to take another customer's car, then the pricing varies depending on the spec of the car. For my P90DL (and P100D models), daily cost is double that. The thought is it's high enough to discourage tyre kickers. I had the reverse psychology: if an oik pays £300/day, then I wondered if they then thought entitled to do what they like...

When it comes to Tesla owners, it's quite common for someone to lend out their car to another Tesla owner in trouble, FOC, or in exchange of a few beers or something else. There is a lot of trust amongst the community and on the private Tesla Facebook groups. Of course, this all goes out the window as soon as it's a public hiring service. Nonetheless, I admire and trust (probably naively) that an renter will look after the car. There are of course the charging elements one needs to know about a little bit so there is a minimal amount of education / recommendation given.

As the service hasn't gone properly live yet, this is all speculation and no doubt pricing / policies will be tweaked after a few weeks / months so it reflects better the business needs and renting demand.

Your comment on supercar hiring is interesting and I hadn't thought to look and see how it compares to what is being offered with the Tesla.

[tfboy]

I'm reminded of the adage "there isn't a 4x4 made that will go where you can take a rental car"

I'd never heard that before but love it!

It does worry me a little though considering mine is 4x4...

[DanceswithUnix]

Do you really trust some stranger with your £150k (-ish) car, though? Do you trust them to, first, be able to handle the performance, and second, treat with the respect you would?

I would trust them with the performance because with an autonomous driving taxi service they won't get a choice on that. Someone so drunk that fluids are streaming out of both ends is the worry, the rental service would have to have some stonking guarantees that they would detail the car afterwards.

When I specced a Tesla out it came to under 100K, which was well outside my work car allowance but then I needed a long range as part of the spec and they can be cheaper. As a 3 year old second hand vehicle you can get one for 50K.

So yes, time will tell. Perhaps someone who can just get the money together for a second hand car will use a taxi mode to help cover the costs. Perhaps companies will buy a fleet of Teslas instead of company cars and add them to the local pool when not in use. Perhaps when someone's car gets to 3 years old they will just set it loose to fend for itself and make money and go buy a new one, that is the thing with disruptive technologies you really can't tell if or how it will eventually work.

[scaryjim]

... I had the reverse psychology: if an oik pays £300/day, then I wondered if they then thought entitled to do what they like... ...

I'd imagine that with a minimum £150/day hire the deposit will be pretty hefty too, and there'd be a pretty steep excess (for instance, on the runabouts I hire from Enterprise the standard excess is £1000). Knowing that each single instance of damage could set you back £1000 is a huge incentive to be pretty damn careful how you drive

[TimSmall]

My morning commute on the train works out at about 50p per mile, so I'm guessing being electric isn't helping costs much there. I do wonder if self driving electric taxis are more likely to kill off trains than private cars. 50p per mile is a lot to be crammed into a vehicle that doesn't quite go where you want to go or at the time you want to go there. But at least you get the opportunity to get stuff stolen off your bike from the bike sheds

That MIT Club of Northern California video I posted had loads of stuff on public transport vs. self driving car vs. bike costs per passenger mile etc. https://youtu.be/Pn9jgf6CXoc?t=4m36s his analysis is that they would (or at least should) kill low utilisation bus routes. Plenty of numbers in the video re trains vs. other methods too.

Self driving cars should eventually make bikes (electric or otherwise) a less stressful and safer option too (not to mention electrification vs. the occasional lung full of diesel particulates) . The figures on relative safety of different car drivers is enlightening:

https://youtu.be/Pn9jgf6CXoc?t=1h15s

[Ttaskmaster]

Self driving cars should eventually make bikes (electric or otherwise) a less stressful and safer option too

Alas, motorcycles and bicycles will be very short-lived, once cars start to drive themselves.
Initially it will be great - Every car driving perfectly central along the road at uniform speed and with very little random lane-swapping, leaving a nice uniform gap between lanes through which bikes can happily whizz...

But then, human-controlled vehicles will be deemed too unpredictable, too unsafe and too dangerous to be permitted on the road. Two-wheelers of all kinds will thus be banned in short order.