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Thread: Tesla Model 3 event

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    Re: Tesla Model 3 event

    Quote Originally Posted by Jonatron View Post
    Why can't there be a standard for car battery packs? If they could also be swapped quickly then there could be a machine in the ground that swaps your dead battery back for a charged one.
    I don't think you can automatically swap batteries, not without ending up with "one size fits no-one" and making the car a bit rubbish.

    Maybe you could make battery modules and stack them into a car in the same way that AA cells pack into all sorts of shapes, but there are cooling pipes and charging circuits to worry about in a car. But we don't even have a battery standard for power tools where that would be really easy, so I won't be holding my breath for anything like that to happen.

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    Re: Tesla Model 3 event

    Quote Originally Posted by Noxvayl View Post
    As such charging your car everyday is the same, just that you can do it in parking lots (sometimes cheaper than paying for parking with incentives) and at your home.
    I think the big problem with it is that most (at a guess) people don't have the luxury of parking there car within reasonable distance of even a 3-pin mains plug, so charging it at home is a no-go. If you are lucky, you might be able to charge at your work place.

    Quote Originally Posted by Noxvayl View Post
    1. Regenerative braking means driving with one pedal
    2. Regenerative breaking significantly reduces reaction times when it comes to stopping distance
    3. Sensors and autonomous coding mean the car can avoid a collision you never see coming (detailed in many YouTube videos)
    4. Who wants to park there car on a crowded street when they get home? all Tesla cars can summon and park themselves, so I for one will love to go to work, get out and tell the car to go do whatever it wants until I need it again.
    1. Really? Pretty certain all EV's still have an accelerator and brake pedal.
    2. Think you are mistaken here. It would have no effect over reaction time since that is a human thing. Also, I don't see it being any better than ABS. Lastly, EV's still have and use normal brakes since when a battery is fully charged, you can't regen any energy.
    4. Whilst a nice idea and would help with the no charging at home problem, it will still be decades away before we allow completely autonomous cars on the roads without any humans onboard.

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    Re: Tesla Model 3 event

    Quote Originally Posted by Gerrard View Post
    I think the big problem with it is that most (at a guess) people don't have the luxury of parking there car within reasonable distance of even a 3-pin mains plug, so charging it at home is a no-go. If you are lucky, you might be able to charge at your work place.



    1. Really? Pretty certain all EV's still have an accelerator and brake pedal.
    2. Think you are mistaken here. It would have no effect over reaction time since that is a human thing. Also, I don't see it being any better than ABS. Lastly, EV's still have and use normal brakes since when a battery is fully charged, you can't regen any energy.
    4. Whilst a nice idea and would help with the no charging at home problem, it will still be decades away before we allow completely autonomous cars on the roads without any humans onboard.
    1. Yes, I've driven the Zoe, i3 and the Model S... all of which have a brake pedal but none of which require one for normal driving.
    2. Indeed it is human but when you lift your foot off the accelerator there is zero second delay. Reaction time no longer has an impact on your stopping distance, and you can also train yourself to left foot break which is significantly more safe with an automatic transmission.
    4. The decades comment is only legal, the technology is not only capable but has been for over a decade now. I did research on this for Ramboll UK during my placement so my guess is 2020 and autonomous cars will be legal in the UK as the government is looking to be a pioneer in the field to boost the economy.

    The UK has already spent billions on autonomous projects, three of which are currently active the most interesting in the City of London and greenwich which mandates a 3D point cloud like map for the cars to use which is controlled by the government.

    Research I've done: https://1drv.ms/w/s!AoTJ1YWdwDDOhqBl1aVrZfLfKYir8g

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    Re: Tesla Model 3 event

    That still seems an odd way to setup a car as it would require a different way of driving. I understand that lifting your foot off the accelerator would slow the car down through regen, but that would be to mimic engine braking. If they aren't bothering with a brake-by-wire system, where the brake pedal would both apply a physical force on the brakes as well as telling the inverter to regen a certain amount, then I guess this is the easy way to implement it. Also, I guess one of the reasons it might be more efficient than an ICE is because that regen would happen all the way down to 0, whereas when get below a minimum speed in an ICE you have to apply the clutch and loose the engine braking effect at the end; or stall!

    I understand reaction time as the time between an incident happening and the your reaction to doing anything, so there is always a reaction time. I can understand that lifting your foot off only is quicker than moving to a brake pedal and so would be shorter, but if that was the case I would have thought you would still want to use the brake pedal in an emergency to increase the braking force.

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    MCRN Tachi Ttaskmaster's Avatar
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    Re: Tesla Model 3 event

    Quote Originally Posted by Saracen View Post
    I buy a new (for example) Tesla, with miniscule usage, and in order to get going ehen it runs flat, I get my 1000 mile battery replaced with one that might have 30000 miles on it.
    Probably one reason of many, although it shouldn't make that big a difference, should it?
    I thought these batteries were (going to be) all wonderful, now?

    Quote Originally Posted by Saracen View Post
    But it's coming.
    I'm sure it is.
    I maintain that it's further off that people like to think, though and I'm not changing until it's actually here and fully integrated into everyday life.
    Just like the flexible screens that keep cropping up, really...

    Quote Originally Posted by Saracen View Post
    If you are going to use statistics to project forward
    And that's the point - I'm not looking forward. I'm looking at now, as a measure of now, compared to someone else's now. I may need to look back in the past to gain an approximation or equivalent, but I'm not looking even five minutes into the future, here...

    Quote Originally Posted by Gerrard View Post
    Well, why can't we have a standard engine design that everyone uses?
    How many basic types of vehicle are there?
    Runabout, hatchback, saloon, estate, people carrier, limo, minivan, small van, Transit, Luton, flatbed, pickup, bus, HGV, tanker, survey rig, ambulance, fire engine.... now add sports, racecar, Police, plus a few others.
    You wouldn't put the HGV engine in a 2-seater thing the size of a Smart car... and few in-betweens wouldn't really work.
    Different type, different engine, different battery size.
    Think me wrong, put a 125cc bike battery in your V8 Chrysler, see what happens.

    Quote Originally Posted by Noxvayl View Post
    Not sure what world you live in but... no, just everything about that sentence is wrong on so many levels my brain is hurting at the moment.
    Explaint to me, then, how on earth an EV would benefit me specifically, over and above my MK1 Octavia 130PD....

    Quote Originally Posted by Noxvayl View Post
    From the rest of the conversation, I also just want you to drive a damn EV.
    I have driven a Leaf.
    Twice.
    Hated it.
    Next?

    Quote Originally Posted by Noxvayl View Post
    no really, you can't understand the appeal of instant torque until you experience it;
    What, like the nice slow Yamaha FJ1200... 0-60mph in 2.8 seconds... sat in my garage right now?
    Click into 3rd, roll on from 40mph and hit 120 before you've finished the single-car overtake?
    Is that what you mean?

    If not, tell me more about this torque.....?

    Honestly, there is NO WAY that I would ever want or need that kind of insanity on something as heavy as a flippin' car!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by Noxvayl View Post
    the same way you can't understand how good an SSD is until you use one and go back.
    Yeah, I'm with Saracen on that.
    I understand perfectly. It still makes no perceptible difference.

    Quote Originally Posted by Saracen View Post
    And a third red line is a price tag that doesn't put Porsche Aston Martin etc in the frame as the alternatives.
    Or at least something that looks as good as an Aston, if you're gonna charge that much for it!!

    Quote Originally Posted by Noxvayl View Post
    I don't because charging the phone every day after use is sufficient for 100% use case for the vehicle. As such charging your car everyday is the same, just that you can do it in parking lots (sometimes cheaper than paying for parking with incentives) and at your home.
    My working day often becomes a working evening, or overnight, while my home life can be all manner of things and either my own forgetfulness and/or many other circumstances may well lead to me being unable to put my phone on charge...
    The difference is that I don't leave my front door and, upon finding my phone out of charge, think to myself: "DAMMITT, I have no other way of getting to work, I'm late already and this will take a couple more hours before I can get it going".
    I also cannot syphon a few litres electricity from a kindly neighbour's EV, or walk to the BP/Shell and grab some... I can't even buy a spare battery from them, as they weigh a LOT and will cost something like £29,000.
    Nothing like a phone.

    Quote Originally Posted by Noxvayl View Post
    This range anxiety I think is utter nonsense. 200-300 mile range is perfectly acceptable, expecially when it only takes 30 mins to do 20-80% charge so stopping for a toilet break plus food = full tank most the time.
    And yet most of the EV owners I know have run out of charge, being caught out quite easily from the sounds of it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Noxvayl View Post
    3. Not only has the technology been around for centuries now (EVs dominated the car market before the turn of the 20th century) and as such will most certainly be the future of transport.
    The technology for space travel has been around for far longer than much of my modern tech and a colony on Mars will most certainly be the future of human life... but I'm not moving there right now.

    Quote Originally Posted by Noxvayl View Post
    Sorry for ranting a bit, I am a tech/car enthusiast as it runs in the family being interested in mechanical items. not just the boys, some of our female members are crazy about cars
    I am similarly interested... But I also get to the point where I won't buy something if it's of no use to me.


    Quote Originally Posted by Noxvayl View Post
    1. Regenerative braking means driving with one pedal
    Is two really that much of a hassle?
    Is three an absolute insanity?
    I'm a drummer - I can handle it....

    TBH, why would you bother buying now?
    Why not just wait until cars drive themselves, then you'll have NO pedals to worry about and won't even have to steer....

    Quote Originally Posted by Noxvayl View Post
    3. Sensors and autonomous coding mean the car can avoid a collision you never see coming (detailed in many YouTube videos)
    Cue long argument about how we have some of the most advanced AI being implemented into our own industry (thank-you kindly, Germany), yet it still cannot cope with some basic extrapolation even after long periods of being taught - How is it going to extrapolate al the variables it will encounter on the road?
    Also - Several videos have been posted about the self-drive cars that failed.
    It's not ready yet.

    Quote Originally Posted by Noxvayl View Post
    4. Who wants to park there car on a crowded street when they get home?
    Someone who doesn't want to get wet and have to walk far while unloading all the heavy stuff from the vehicle?

    Quote Originally Posted by Noxvayl View Post
    all Tesla cars can summon and park themselves, so I for one will love to go to work, get out and tell the car to go do whatever it wants until I need it again.
    How far away is the park and what security do they have, what are the daily charges, how immediately is the car available?

    Quote Originally Posted by Noxvayl View Post
    We are talking about a car becoming more than just a means of transport here.
    Are we?
    Sounds more like that's all it will be - No actual ownership, just renting. No chance for customisation, modding, individual designs or anything beyond being a big, square, heavily regulated auto-bus....

    Quote Originally Posted by DanceswithUnix View Post
    There is a problem with such things though, AIUI a fuel cell can't power a car at full load
    Forget the fuel cell. Replace it with whatever you like - The principle is what I was talking about - "It's the car of tomorrow, because it's the car of today".
    However it achieves it, be it ICE, battery, hydrogen cell, thorium, a zero point module, or an oscilation overthruster, it must still achieve what we have today or better.
    That's what I'm talking about.....

    Quote Originally Posted by DanceswithUnix View Post
    That sort of story I think matters to a lot of people, the idea of being part of the future.
    Another part is knowing what the future is... or knowing when something is not.
    Minidiscs were awesome - Smaller than a CD, capable of storing 4-5 times what a CD can and fully editable, as well as better protected from damage.
    I've only ever seen one in real life and that's the one I bought for myself off eBay.

    Minidiscs were not the future!!

    Quote Originally Posted by DanceswithUnix View Post
    You could point out the energy stored in the fatbergs floating around the sewers of our cities is enough to power a lot of cars, but good luck convincing people of the dream of sewer fat powered vehicles whatever the range you could manage
    Strange you mention that, as we just got a eBulletin about it.
    We actually use poo for power instead... and apparently it's doing rather well.

    However, fat or poo, we probably don't need to convince anyone - We'd just do it and then issue loads of press releases about how green and innovative we are, how many of you are already getting poo power and thriving on it, how much of the environment we have saved and how we're able to branch into other such industries in order to reduce our customers' bills... And we'd still make money from it, which brings my argument back to the main point.

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    Re: Tesla Model 3 event

    Quote Originally Posted by Noxvayl View Post
    2. Indeed it is human but when you lift your foot off the accelerator there is zero second delay.
    The instant you move your foot, the reaction time has already passed... and it remains unchanged.

    Quote Originally Posted by Noxvayl View Post
    you can also train yourself to left foot break which is significantly more safe with an automatic transmission.
    Nope.
    Some cars, both manual and auto, actually drop the revs when you apply the brake - I forget the reason why (there's some articles on it somewhere), but on those cars it means you cannot use heel-toe shifting techniques and it also robs you of some engine-braking power.

    Done very improperly, you can actually spin out in an automatic with left foot braking, as well as outright stalling the automatic. Vauxhall Corsa 1.4 LSes were particular good for doing this!!

    Quote Originally Posted by Noxvayl View Post
    4. The decades comment is only legal, the technology is not only capable but has been for over a decade now.
    We have such technology in the office below me right now - It cannot accurately extrapolate five variables. How will it extrapolate the hundreds it will encounter on the road?
    Decades...

    Quote Originally Posted by Gerrard View Post
    whereas when get below a minimum speed in an ICE you have to apply the clutch and loose the engine braking effect at the end; or stall!
    Or apply more brake to compensate for the clutched engine, before gently lifting off over the final few feet to avoid jerking to a stop... like they teach you when you do yoru driving lessons.
    Brakes are not ON/OFF. They are progressive, as should be your technique of using the brake pedal/lever.

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    Ninja Noxvayl's Avatar
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    Re: Tesla Model 3 event

    Keep your old ICE car... wouldn't want you to bother wasting money on anything being manufactured because 50% of the environmental cost of any car purchase is done in manufacturing.

    Anyway, your preferences are bizarre to me Ttaskmaster. If you enjoy driving, there is no way you won't enjoy the way an EV works.

    Safety features/autonmous driving is going to happen in stages, much like the person walking in front of cars happened before ICE existed... Horses are now luxury items unless you are a traveller that shuns technology. ICE cars, in the next 20-30 years will become the same, luxury items.

    So back to the Model 3 specifically. Park outside my house, unload my stuff and then tap an app to tell the car to rubbishrubbishrubbishrubbish off.

    Wake up, tap my app to summon and drive to work.

    Go for lunch because I need to charge the vehicle, park in charging location and walk to where ever i want.

    Go back home after work rinse repeat.

    All that will cost me less than petrol alone right now, and I'll have an asset to show for it at the end. One which has one of the most advanced set of safety features ever developed for cars.

    In terms of an investment for the future, for a person that drives 15k miles a year... this is not only something that is essential, it is downright stupid no matter how you look at it to buy anything other than an electric vehicle. Could be Hybrid, PHEV or EV with range extender... doesn't matter because they all are far superior in every way.

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    Re: Tesla Model 3 event

    Quote Originally Posted by Noxvayl View Post
    Keep your old ICE car... wouldn't want you to bother wasting money on anything being manufactured because 50% of the environmental cost of any car purchase is done in manufacturing.
    If I had the money to care about the environment, I might... But I don't have that luxury.

    Quote Originally Posted by Noxvayl View Post
    Anyway, your preferences are bizarre to me Ttaskmaster. If you enjoy driving, there is no way you won't enjoy the way an EV works.
    I like manual cars because of the skill involved. I utterly despise driving auto and semi-auto BMWs, Hondas, Mercs, Lexuses (Lexii?), Chryslers, and all that. Same for anything that does things how it thinks I want them done and removes the interaction between me and the road.
    Why would I enjoy an EV, especially given how I haven't enjoyed any so far?

    Quote Originally Posted by Noxvayl View Post
    Horses are now luxury items unless you are a traveller that shuns technology.
    No, they are rendered obsolete as a form of transport due to their unsafe nature around high speed vehicular transport and the impatience of the human control unit.
    But they have always been expensive luxuries.

    Quote Originally Posted by Noxvayl View Post
    ICE cars, in the next 20-30 years will become the same, luxury items.
    No, they'll be outright banned from the roads, resigned to museums and private collections alongside motorcycles.

    Quote Originally Posted by Noxvayl View Post
    So back to the Model 3 specifically. Park outside my house, unload my stuff and then tap an app to tell the car to rubbishrubbishrubbishrubbish off.
    Where does it go, how secure is it, how much is the charge for housing it, how long before you get your car back, is a sharing scheme mandatory?

    Quote Originally Posted by Noxvayl View Post
    All that will cost me less than petrol alone right now
    I spend £60/mo on diesel.
    You have a self-parking EV that I can buy and run for less money?

    Quote Originally Posted by Noxvayl View Post
    and I'll have an asset to show for it at the end. One which has one of the most advanced set of safety features ever developed for cars.
    I bet it will be outdated tech and worth a lot less before then...

    Quote Originally Posted by Noxvayl View Post
    doesn't matter because they all are far superior in every way.
    You haven't actually told me a single reason why it's better than my old diesel yet....

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    root Member DanceswithUnix's Avatar
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    Re: Tesla Model 3 event

    Quote Originally Posted by Noxvayl View Post
    Wake up, tap my app to summon and drive to work.
    No reason that can't work for ICE cars too.

    I honestly think that the promise of this sort of technology is more of a draw to the Tesla range than being electric. If Ford could realistically promise (ie we actually believed them) that a Focus bought now would be upgradable to autonomous driving within a few years of purchase they would be flying off the forecourts. But even the likes of Audi who are currently banging the autonomous vehicle drum don't actually have any track record or actual credibility despite their research spending.

    I was just reading that Tesla are taking 1800 reservations per day, and are hoping to ramp up to 5000 cars a week. That's a big gap between supply and demand, so I guess the second hand value will be higher than retail for some time. Edit: That's on top of the 500000 long waiting list.

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    Re: Tesla Model 3 event

    Noxvayl, a lot of the advantages you state are not restricted to EVs. Look at the TT Audi had a few years that completed the Pikes Peak race. The car doesn't need an electric motor to be cutting edge.

    My Zoe may have maximum torque from 0, but it's still a miserable 220nm. My petrol car idles at just under 1000rpm, and peak torque is delivered at 1600rpm, and then it puts down 540nm of torque. I can assure you I can launch my petrol car far quicker than my Zoe. It's not just the power eclipses that of the Zoe, it is also because the wheels are putting down 9" of sticky rubber instead of 6" of "low-resistance" frictionless rubbish.

    You could apply the same eco tyres to my petrol car, but it would be frankly dangerous commanding that much power through them.

    Brake regeneration is handy, and I try to keep my braking mostly on the regeneration. But on the Zoe at least the passive braking is no more than engine braking in the appropriate gear on a combustion engine. You can increase the regen rate, but you can also change down a gear.

    All that said, Electric is quite clearly here to stay for the foreseeable future and as my primary car.

    ttaskmaster, you've said a lot, and I don't have the time or inclination to engage all of it. You are coming across a bit luddite though! Yes, EVs are at the entry level market currently, no new tech is as it is costly to develop it. That said, my Zoe costs me £170/m and that's on a battery lease scheme where the batteries are replaced free of charge if they start to under perform. Two years in, I haven't had to change any. £15 of electric will match £150 of petrol for me over a month. So a large amount of the cost is taken care of in fuel savings.

    One point you made was on the repairability of components and mechanics not messing up with rosstech. That's quite an assumption, you're rating a mechanics ability to use software with a traditional engine but their incompetence if the motor was electric. There are lots of terrible "mechanics" out there. Any worth their salt would have the appropriate training to use the tools on the vehicles they maintain. The simple fact is electric motors are a lot simpler. As for repairability of modules, I've never had a mechanic suggest they could repair my thermostat, temperature sensor, waste gate, clutch or flywheel. These are all things that have been replaced with new versions. A lot of this stuff is redundant in an EV car, and if they are included, it's not any more complicated or expensive to replace.

    Whilst there is embedded carbon in the manufacture of vehicles, this applies to all vehicles, not just EVs. Audi have invested heavily in wind farms to power their factories, again, this doesn't need to be applied to just EV cars. As for the electric, that's also carbon neutral as it either comes from my solar panels or from my zero-carbon electric tariff, which is available to anybody.

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    Re: Tesla Model 3 event

    Interesting...Tesla is the future and I think it will be the new cars generation. If not yet, then in due course..

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    Re: Tesla Model 3 event

    Quote Originally Posted by DanceswithUnix View Post
    I was just reading that Tesla are taking 1800 reservations per day, and are hoping to ramp up to 5000 cars a week.
    Similarly, I also hear loads of people have donated money to Star Citizen...

    Quote Originally Posted by Dashers View Post
    ttaskmaster, you've said a lot, and I don't have the time or inclination to engage all of it.
    I bet you say that to all the boys...

    Quote Originally Posted by Dashers View Post
    You are coming across a bit luddite though!
    I usually do.
    But again, I am NOT against advancing technology. I just refuse to give up what I have unless you present me with a replacement that is notably better, or you force me into it by taking every other option.
    For example, although it took me a while to find one I liked enough, I do have a proper Samsung Galaxy smartphone... But at the same time I do not have a Smartwatch because that's just silly marketing guff, as evidenced by how many owners look to see they have a message and then get out their phone to reply!

    Quote Originally Posted by Dashers View Post
    That said, my Zoe costs me £170/m and that's on a battery lease scheme where the batteries are replaced free of charge if they start to under perform.
    And how much up front to buy the car, in any capacity?
    Insurance?
    Tax?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dashers View Post
    That's quite an assumption, you're rating a mechanics ability to use software with a traditional engine but their incompetence if the motor was electric.
    More citing those who stuff up existing softwares, as evidence that they can just as easily stuff up the new, as well as the lesser mechanics and even amateurs looking to save a few bucks by DIY.
    More of a concern as it's mostly electric and not so easy to diagnose by sight, sound or feel, but more accessible to home user cowboys, as you don't need to know how it works, as you just plug it into the laptop... possibly even another exploit route, for the unscrupulous to sell bogus software to those who don't know any better.
    It sounds like a real conspiracy theory, but having done some eye-opening training at work recently, the capacity for and extent of human idiocy, gullibility and deceit is quite far ranging... I'd not put anything past anyone, right now.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dashers View Post
    Any worth their salt would have the appropriate training to use the tools on the vehicles they maintain.
    Oh, of course.
    But plenty who aren't, in this industry and others, still get enough work that they remain in business.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dashers View Post
    The simple fact is electric motors are a lot simpler.
    But they can still go wrong and be travelling at high speeds when they do.
    I want to know how easily they can go wrong.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dashers View Post
    As for repairability of modules, I've never had a mechanic suggest they could repair my thermostat, temperature sensor, waste gate, clutch or flywheel.
    You sound like a pretty easy, straightforward and relatively understanding customer...

    Quote Originally Posted by Dashers View Post
    A lot of this stuff is redundant in an EV car, and if they are included, it's not any more complicated or expensive to replace.
    I'm sure it's not more expensive, any more than a gasket is... but look at a Ford gasket, then see how much more the same thing costs to get for a Merc.
    "Now this, see, gov.... this here is one of them new Electric Vehicles. Latest tech, they are and highest spec. Cutting edge. Unfortunately that kind of stuff is still very expensive, you see.... "

    Once again, Money is the biggest factor in all this.

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    Re: Tesla Model 3 event

    Quote Originally Posted by DanceswithUnix View Post
    I was just reading that Tesla are taking 1800 reservations per day, and are hoping to ramp up to 5000 cars a week. That's a big gap between supply and demand, so I guess the second hand value will be higher than retail for some time. Edit: That's on top of the 500000 long waiting list.
    Interesting detail about their factory. It used to be a Toyota plant, where they made 6000 vehicles a week with about 4700 employees. Tesla is currently employing 6000 people there, making 2700 cars a week.

    Doesn't take much to see why they lose money on every car they sell..

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    Re: Tesla Model 3 event

    Quote Originally Posted by Ttaskmaster View Post
    How many basic types of vehicle are there?
    Runabout, hatchback, saloon, estate, people carrier, limo, minivan, small van, Transit, Luton, flatbed, pickup, bus, HGV, tanker, survey rig, ambulance, fire engine.... now add sports, racecar, Police, plus a few others.
    You wouldn't put the HGV engine in a 2-seater thing the size of a Smart car... and few in-betweens wouldn't really work.
    Different type, different engine, different battery size.
    Think me wrong, put a 125cc bike battery in your V8 Chrysler, see what happens.
    That was sort of my point. A battery is more than just a fuel tank and is why a standard battery wouldn't be applicable.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ttaskmaster View Post
    Or apply more brake to compensate for the clutched engine, before gently lifting off over the final few feet to avoid jerking to a stop... like they teach you when you do yoru driving lessons.
    Brakes are not ON/OFF. They are progressive, as should be your technique of using the brake pedal/lever.
    I was mainly thinking out aloud on how you could not use the brakes at all in normal circumstances, and one of those would be that in an EV you could come off the throttle and the "engine braking" would remain until you stopped, but was something you couldn't do in an ICE without a clutch and brakes.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ttaskmaster View Post
    I like manual cars because of the skill involved. I utterly despise driving auto and semi-auto BMWs, Hondas, Mercs, Lexuses (Lexii?), Chryslers, and all that. Same for anything that does things how it thinks I want them done and removes the interaction between me and the road.
    Likewise, I prefer manuals. That and proper handbrakes!

    I still view the cost benefits of an EV slightly hypocritical (might not be the best word) as they are cheaper to run per mile, but have limited miles you can do consistently! And command quite a premium over an equivalent ICE car at the moment. I was looking at a range-extender like the i3, but just can't make the costs work for my situation unfortunately.

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    Re: Tesla Model 3 event

    The key advantage of a Tesla vehicle is that it is not from an incumbent manufacturer. It comes from a software engineer that made millions designing PayPal and then used his money on a dream to go to Mars... Tesla was initially just a business investment that the guy running it before did a bad job of.

    So yeah, when you buy a Tesla vehicle you are buying computer hardware that will get better over time through software updates. Not a piece of metal that require lots of expensive upgrades.

    Petrol vehicles will not be banned. LPG mods are more fuel efficient than EVs which is why I'm going to spend £2000 on a mod for my vehicle so that I can keep it forever effectively. Never run out of methane from waste facilities, may as well burn it in cars.

    If you want to keep your manual, go for it. Always been the bane of my existence because there are many more important things to consider when driving than the gear you are in. Dual clutch gearboxes are the future, so much so I'm tempted to do an upgrade to increase the efficiency of my drive train.

    I prefer EVs because they are simpler, Civil Engineer not a mechanical monkey Less bits = less opportunity for something to go wrong. Also in 10 years battery density will have doubled due to the massive incentives from governments world wide so once fully paid for you can make your car "new" by replacing the battery pack.

    Oh right and a 10 year manufacturer warranty on the drive train with Tesla... no other manufacturer offers such a thing.

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    Re: Tesla Model 3 event

    Quote Originally Posted by TeePee View Post
    Interesting detail about their factory. It used to be a Toyota plant, where they made 6000 vehicles a week with about 4700 employees. Tesla is currently employing 6000 people there, making 2700 cars a week.

    Doesn't take much to see why they lose money on every car they sell..
    Amazon on recently started making a profit... one of the biggest companies in the world.

    When you are the pioneer of new technology you have to either suck it up and take the R&D hit or you find investors to help you out. SpaceX as a privately owned billion dollar company is a pretty good insurance on the whole losing money on each sale business over at Tesla.

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