Any Lawyers/Policemen about? Couple of queries....

Rave · 14-08-2007, 04:17 AM

I'll try and keep this brief and to the point.

Tonight, shortly after starting my last run out of Peckham, two 'youths' went to board my bus. The first made to get on without showing me a ticket of any sort. His companion attempted to bring his mountain bike on board. Bikes simply aren't allowed on buses so first of all I told him to get off. He argued a bit but I wasn't having any of it- the rules are clear on this point. At this point the first guy came back and I asked him for a ticket. He claimed to be 15 but didn't look it, and in any case 14 and 15 year olds are required to have a Child Oyster Card to get free travel. After a minute or so of total, but reasonably polite intransigence from me they both got off, at which point a couple of other passengers who'd been waiting patiently got on.

Just as I was preparing to depart, the first youth jumped back on carrying a bottle of soft drink and proceeded to liberally spray it through the gap in the assault scrren, totally soaking me. In a total rage, I jumped out of the cab, and persued him up the road. He had a ten yard start though, and I'd left the cab open with the engine running, so I soon gave up, albeit cursing him out as a coward.. At this point mountain bike boy squared up to me and invited me to get back in my cab, lest I suffer a beating. By this point a third youth (who up until that point, I'm guessing, had merely planned to see his friends onto the bus) was loitering with what looked like malicious intent. This being Peckham, I decided to unwillingly retire.

So, my questions are thus:

1: What exactly counts as provocation? Had I been lucky enough to catch up with the first youth, would I have had a reasonable excuse to rearrange his face?
2: Ditto. Would explicitly threatening me have been excuse enough for me to stick one on mountain bike boy? I could easily have broken his nose with a quick jab (or a Glasgow Kiss).
3. As things stand, should I bother making a complaint to the police? The bus has CCTV cameras all over, and I could easily get the footage. I also have the empty bottle of pop wrapped in a plastic bag; a cursory inspection revealed partial fingerprints galore. OTOH, compared to the shootings, stabbings etc. that seem to go on in Peckham on a pretty regular basis, I'm smart enough to realise that a bus driver getting doused in fizzy drink is pretty small beer, and I don't particularly want to waste the police's time.

I'm less than cock-a-hoop at the evening's proceedings though, as you can probably tell.

Thoughts?

Stringent · 14-08-2007, 04:35 AM

1, 2: You would probably end up being charged for assault.
3: Even if you did complain and it got somewhere, they would probably just get some sweets and sent home. However, doesn't TFL hold some sort of staff protection? You see the posters around, assaults on staff will be prosecuted or something.

Glad you OK though, as you said, it could have been a lot worse. I'm surprised they didn't have knives or something.

dangel · 14-08-2007, 07:32 AM

Worse still, possibly assault on a minor.. Not that i'm siding with them - not one bit. Little sods. Glad you're ok tho

Spud1 · 14-08-2007, 07:54 AM

wow that really sucks, I feel for you here..

I think that you would end up being charged if you actually went for either of them - but its definitely worth you speaking to your employer and then going forth to prosecute if the CCTV is good enough to identify them (and also doesn't look bad on you chasing after them..which would be my only concern).

I know the system only works 1% of the time of so (but thats a different topic =)) but its worth giving it a go - its not wasting the polices' time, a crime is a crime no matter what it is.

TMD · 14-08-2007, 08:00 AM

Problem is...if you do inform the police...and they do find the guys...the worst that will probably happen is a fine for disorderly conduct or something like that...which is rediculous cos they probably know that which is why idiots like do it...knowing chances are nothing will happen

Spud1 · 14-08-2007, 08:05 AM

Originally Posted by TMD

Problem is...if you do inform the police...and they do find the guys...the worst that will probably happen is a fine for disorderly conduct or something like that...which is rediculous cos they probably know that which is why idiots like do it...knowing chances are nothing will happen

Thats probably true, but you still have to try I think..otherwise the system will never change. Its like protesting against things like Congenstion Charges(ie: regression taxes) or ID cards - its probably not going to make a blind bit of difference, the gov will still ignore its people and do it anyway, but at least you've made an attempt to change things for the better

TMD · 14-08-2007, 08:19 AM

Originally Posted by Spud1

Thats probably true, but you still have to try I think..otherwise the system will never change. Its like protesting against things like Congenstion Charges(ie: regression taxes) or ID cards - its probably not going to make a blind bit of difference, the gov will still ignore its people and do it anyway, but at least you've made an attempt to change things for the better

yeah i agree...its just frustrating...something similar happened to a mate of mine and he spent ages giving a statement, desribing the guys etc...and in the end...they found one of them and gave them a slap on the wrist so to speak...

tiggerai · 14-08-2007, 08:53 AM

I would deffo report it to your employer as for all you know there could have been acid in that bottle...

GoNz0 · 14-08-2007, 09:18 AM

yeh unless there going to sack you for leaving the bus with the engine running. may come up if they review the camera?

and in todays society thats probably going to be the case

Dareos · 14-08-2007, 09:21 AM

acid in a plastic bottle, yep some of these idiots are that dumb....

Take it as far as you can mate, you are there to do a job, not take abuse. After the Rodney King and another fiasco in the states, a lot of drivers started carrying weapons and refusing to stop for anyone except in designated areas (truckstops etc) for fear of being attacked. Next time it could well be petrol in that bottle or as Rai says, acid.

good luck

**Saracen** · 14-08-2007, 09:47 AM

Originally Posted by Rave

.....

So, my questions are thus:

1: What exactly counts as provocation? Had I been lucky enough to catch up with the first youth, would I have had a reasonable excuse to rearrange his face?

I'm neither policeman nor solicitor, but I'll give my opinion anyway.

1) Would you have had reasonable excuse? No.

The law allows you to DEFEND yourself using reasonable force. But in what sense does chasing someone that's fleeing constitute defence?

The law also allows you to make an arrest (citizen's arrest), but I'd caution you that it's a VERY tricky area to get into, because if you detain someone (whether physically or just using threat), and you can't legally justify the arrest, then you're laying yourself open to the potential for fairly serious charges. It is an option that is, generally, best left well alone.

As for provocation, well, as I understand it, that's a defence you can use if you are charged, and I'm not aware of it applying to anything other than a murder charge.

Originally Posted by Rave

2: Ditto. Would explicitly threatening me have been excuse enough for me to stick one on mountain bike boy? I could easily have broken his nose with a quick jab (or a Glasgow Kiss).

Arguably, yes, it MIGHT.

As above, you're allowed to use reasonable force to defend yourself, and that can include pre-emptive action. You do not, for instance, have to wait for the knife-wielding maniac to actually stab you before using a baseball bat to disarm him. So the principle of reasonable force would allow you to stick one on him, providing it was in defence and that you seriously feared harm, and providing that the force you used was reasonable and proportionate to the perceived threat.

Oh, and that "perceived" threat doesn't have to be real, either. But it does have to be "reasonable". If someone points a realistic-looking toy gun at you, you'd be quite justified in using serious force (like that baseball bat) to defend yourself, because you have no way to know that the toy gun isn't real and can't actually harm you. But the threat can't be just entirely in your own mind. You can't just nut some poor bloke walking down the road because you thought he looked at you wrong, and you felt threatened. In other words, you can react to perceived threats that don't actually exist, providing the perception is reasonable. That's not, however, quite how the law phrases it (and it's an area that's been subjective to extensive argument and precedents at all sorts of levels over a period of many decades), but it's (IMHO) a reasonable précis.

However, while bike-boy threatening you might well provide legal grounds for thumping him, you also have to think about the practical side. He's a kid, and you're an adult. You plant one on him, and police are very likely to be involved, and as a bus driver, you're pretty easy to identify. So, he can presumably prove you planted one on him - by bruises and witness statements. That now means that you're having to use self-defence as a defence which means that in the first instance, you're trying to convince the police not to charge you with assault and battery, maybe ABH. And, if unsuccessful in that, you're in the unenviable position of trying to convince either magistrates or a jury that it was self-defence. Can you PROVE he threatened you? Can you establish that an adult planting one on a child was "proportionate" to the threat? If not, then you're looking at a good prospect of a criminal conviction, perhaps a jail sentence, and certainly a likely response from your employer to one of their staff convicted of assaulting a child. How do you think they'd react? My guess is with a P45.

Originally Posted by Rave

...

3. As things stand, should I bother making a complaint to the police? The bus has CCTV cameras all over, and I could easily get the footage. I also have the empty bottle of pop wrapped in a plastic bag; a cursory inspection revealed partial fingerprints galore. OTOH, compared to the shootings, stabbings etc. that seem to go on in Peckham on a pretty regular basis, I'm smart enough to realise that a bus driver getting doused in fizzy drink is pretty small beer, and I don't particularly want to waste the police's time.

Personally, I would certainly report it to your employer, and I'd be inclined to report it to the police, if for no other reason than it may be that these kids will see a lack of reaction or consequence as encouragement to seek you out for a repeat performance. But will a police report actually achieve much, beyond getting your version of events on the record? Dunno, but I rather doubt it.

I think what you have here, Rave, is a particularly annoying example of the attitude prevalent in our society today. It's annoying as hell, because a few decades ago, you could have grabbed this kiddy-terrorist, clipped their ears and nothing much would be said. But these days, you can't touch the little 'darlings' for fear of ending up in court yourself, almost regardless of what antics the beggars get up to.

Other than a report, I'm rather sorry to say that about the most you can do, IMHO, is to chalk it up as a sign of the times, and try not to grind your teeth down to the gums in frustration by thinking about it too much.

**Saracen** · 14-08-2007, 09:51 AM

Originally Posted by Dareos

acid in a plastic bottle, yep some of these idiots are that dumb....

Well, back in my school days, my science teacher learned the hard way that petrol dissolves some plastics. He tried a 'hedge' against the fuel shortages in the '70s by filling a plastic dustbin with petrol. It did the obvious thing, and he went home one day to find his garage floor awash with about 30 gallons of petrol, and a melted blob of black plastic that used to be a rubbish bin in the middle of it. And that's a science teacher!

Dareos · 14-08-2007, 09:55 AM

did he stand back and have a smoke while he surveyed the damage?

**Saracen** · 14-08-2007, 10:02 AM

If he had, I suspect you'd have read about him in the Darwin Awards.

Even he wasn't quite that much of a muppet. But you can rather imagine the fun us kids had with him about it. He spent about three months wearing a permanent blush at school.

badass · 14-08-2007, 10:52 AM

Originally Posted by Saracen

So the principle of reasonable force would allow you to stick one on him, providing it was in defence and that you seriously feared harm, and providing that the force you used was reasonable and proportionate to the perceived threat.

Just a bit of clarification here.

The bit in bold should read "providing it was in self defence and that a reasonable person in the same situation would feel there is a credible threat to their personal safety"
Saracen has actually more or less said this later on in the post, but just thought I would clarify.
My brother is a Policeman and we have discussed this many times.

Blitzen · 14-08-2007, 11:02 AM

You have to be SOO SOO careful.

Theother week some little ****e fired a catapult at my car. I slammed the anchors on and chased until i caught him.

When i did there was no-one else around. I told him to give me the catapult or i would call the plod there and then towhich he duly obliged.
As he was wondering off he told me 'his dad would sort me out'. (Not too worried about that as his dad needed telling what scummy offspring he has).

Anyway...when i got home my Mrs panicked. Not knowing why i asked what the prblem was.

She said 'the boy could call the plod and tell them anything'. He couldve made up an assault story or anything and she is right.

The moral is.
Punch the little fecks where everyone can see you!!!!!

The chances are these little pikeys are bought up by parents just as thick, rude and idle as they are so sometimes a good smack in the gob is all they understand!!