Italian Fan killed by police by 'Accident'?

[TiG]

I don't know how many other people have seen this or care, but this story about the Italian football fan being killed by Accident when he was sat in a car at a Motorway service station seems scary as hell to me. (more sketchy details below)

BBC NEWS | World | Europe | Officer 'rues' killing Lazio fan

Speaking as a football fan who does attend both England matches and more local heady heights of Reading FC on occasion or a local derby between MK Dons and High Wycombe, I feel a pronounced sense of sadness if something completely unjust was going on here.

Killing a football fan sitting in a car who has nothing to do with any of the violence, someone must be responsible and I hope the matter isn't brushed under the carpet.

Italian football violence at the moment is probably the worst in Europe and something about the poor policing needs to be done asap!.

Especially with a few more English clubs playing in Italian club sides soon.

TiG

[Saracen]

I think we need to wait for the investigation to see what comes out of it. It could be something really unsavoury, but it could also be that the officer's account is entirely truthful. But if so, I'd still say he's in considerable trouble, because even firing into the air is a dubious policy in a built up area. After all, what goes up will inevitably come down again .... somewhere.

But if his own account is true, it's sheer incompetence that results in a police firearm being fired "by accident" like that, and the result was a man that certainly appears to be totally innocent being killed. I would think he's looking at criminal charges. It certainly sounds, from his own account, that he ought to be facing charges.

[chuckskull]

According to his statement he had not aimed at anyone. So as anyone who's even held a gun it would be aimed down and clear of the legs in a safe position, surely that's part of police training? How the hell do you go from that to hitting a guy in the neck? Even sitting in a low car, easily a chest height target for most.

Sounds like he was running, swinging his arms, with his gun cocked, loaded, without the safety on AND his finger wasn't even clear of the trigger. At the very least, an incredibly stupid idea and firing a shot in the air? Starting to sound like John Wayne.

[Lucio]

It sounds like he didn't put his safety back on after discharging his weapon in the air (which I'm surprised about anyway!)

Quite frankly I'd expect him to be bought up on manslaughter charges and reckless endangerment (or the italian equivilent).

[Saracen]

Originally Posted by Lucio

It sounds like he didn't put his safety back on after discharging his weapon in the air (which I'm surprised about anyway!)

Quite frankly I'd expect him to be bought up on manslaughter charges and reckless endangerment (or the italian equivilent).

Not all weapons have a manual safety. Glocks don't, for a start, though some later versions have a safety (ILS). This isn't a safety in the convention sense, though. It's a way of locking the weapon, using unique keys. It puts the weapon safe from firing, but would police officers on duty lock a weapon so that if they need it, they have to start fumbling with a key to unlock it? It's more designed to lock it when, for instance, stored.

And Glocks are very popular with police forces.

They have, typically, a triple-feature internal safety designed to stop the weapon firing unless the trigger is pulled. But if this cop is a bit wired, and running holding the weapon .... well, sufficient trigger pressure and ....

I know where you're coming from, Lucio, but without knowing exactly what this cop was carrying, you may well be totally off-beam there, because with Glocks (and some others) there is no such manual safety. That's one reason for waiting for the facts before speculating too much.

[educatedfool]

It's alright that the numerous police have been killed by rioting due to football in the past though...

I agree that it is a tragedy that this man was shot, the bullet should have hit the people fighting instead, at least that way it would have rid the world of someone useless.

[TiG]

Originally Posted by educatedfool

It's alright that the numerous police have been killed by rioting due to football in the past though...

I agree that it is a tragedy that this man was shot, the bullet should have hit the people fighting instead, at least that way it would have rid the world of someone useless.

Who said anything about numerous police being killed by rioting is okay?.

TiG

[educatedfool]

Originally Posted by TiG

Who said anything about numerous police being killed by rioting is okay?.

TiG

I was just commenting on how there is never a mass uproar when a policeman is killed by the hooligans.

[Optical668]

saracen im not quite sure what your saying, but are you saying that glocks dont have a safety catch that can opperated manually?



The catch just above the trigger gaurd = Primary Safety Catch
And theres also a secondary saftey on the trigger which stops the the primary trigger from being pulled unless the smaller trigger located in the middle of the primary trigger is pulled first

I would doubt it was a glock anyway, would proberly have been a Berreta 9mm.

[this_is_gav]

Originally Posted by educatedfool

I was just commenting on how there is never a mass uproar when a policeman is killed by the hooligans.

Italian football was suspended in February when a policeman was killed. It made the news world-wide, even in America, who neither recognise football, or the rest of the (oil-free) world, frankly.

[educatedfool]

Originally Posted by this_is_gav

Italian football was suspended in February when a policeman was killed. It made the news world-wide, even in America, who neither recognise football, or the rest of the (oil-free) world, frankly.

And that's really the same reaction? My point was saying that the hooligans don't care, they are just looking for an excuse to be violent.

[nichomach]

Originally Posted by Optical668

The catch just above the trigger gaurd = Primary Safety Catch
And theres also a secondary saftey on the trigger which stops the the primary trigger from being pulled unless the smaller trigger located in the middle of the primary trigger is pulled first

Nope. It's the slide lock - see PDF HERE. From Glock's website:

"ACTION
Safe and ingeniously simple: Contrary to conventional, the trigger is the only operating element. All three pistol safeties are deactivated when the trigger is pulled -and automatically activated when it is released."

GLOCK "Safe Action Pistols"

There ARE no manual safeties on a standard Glock.

[TheAnimus]

Don't get confused by the glock 'safety'

the problem is once one's in the chamber the slide lock is off. So if a shot had already been fired in the air (moronic), there is only the trigger guard which is more to stop accidental discharge whilst in holster etc.

[chuckskull]

I thought Italian standard issue for state police was a Modified Beretta 92. With manual safety, this is third hand info though and there is no saying the officer was using his standard issue pistol or a completely different weapon.

The Italian State Police version of that gun does a manual safety.

[nichomach]

The slide lock has nothing to do with any of the three safety mechanisms operant in the Glock. It's only ever used (or rather disengaged) when stripping the weapon. Which was my point. Look, there are three safety mechanisms operant in the Glock;

"TRIGGER SAFETY
As the first of the three GLOCK “Safe Action” safety features, the trigger safety prevents inadvertent firing by lateral forces on the trigger. Releasing the trigger will automatically reactivate the safety."
GLOCK

"FIRING PIN SAFETY
The GLOCK firing pin safety is a solid hardened steel pin which, in the secured state, blocks the firing pin channel, rendering the igniting of a chambered cartridge by the firing pin impossible. The firing pin safety is only pushed upward to release the firing pin for firing when the trigger is pulled and the safety is pushed up through the backward movement of the trigger bar. Releasing the trigger will automatically reactivate the firing pin safety. "

GLOCK

"DROP SAFETY
In the line of duty it may happen that a loaded pistol is dropped on the floor. Contrary to conventional pistols, the GLOCK drop safety prevents unintentional firing of a shot through hard impact. When the trigger is pulled, the trigger bar is guided in a precision safety ramp. The trigger bar is deflected from this ramp only in the moment the shot is triggered."

GLOCK

The only control on the weapon that has any effect on these safeties is the trigger, which disengages them when deliberately pulled, and re-engages them when released.

[Saracen]

Originally Posted by Optical668

saracen im not quite sure what your saying, but are you saying that glocks dont have a safety catch that can opperated manually?



The catch just above the trigger gaurd = Primary Safety Catch
And theres also a secondary saftey on the trigger which stops the the primary trigger from being pulled unless the smaller trigger located in the middle of the primary trigger is pulled first

I would doubt it was a glock anyway, would proberly have been a Berreta 9mm.

I'm not totally sure what you're referring to. Immediately above the trigger guard in that photo is a little downward-sliding catch in a sort-of finger recess. The bit I'm referring to is to the left in that photo of the trigger pin (where the little hole directly above the trigger is). Is that what you mean?

If so, it's not a primary safety catch. It's the slide lock, and it's used to disassemble the 17, not to make it safe. Well, actually, I suppose it makes it safe in the sense that it's part of the disassembly process, but only after you've unloaded, racked the slide a few times, pulled the trigger and then manually racked the slide a small amount. There's a corresponding lock on the other side, and with both released, you can remove the slide.

And yes, I'm saying that Glocks don't have a manual safety .... though for the sake of accuracy, I should have said most don't. There are exceptions.

Originally Posted by Optical668

.... And theres also a secondary saftey on the trigger which stops the the primary trigger from being pulled unless the smaller trigger located in the middle of the primary trigger is pulled first.

As I said earlier, there's three safeties in the Glock mechanism, but they are ALL deactivated by pulling the trigger. So if this cop is hyped up, adrenalin pumping and running with something like a Glock, it's possible he'd put more pressure than intended (5.5lb trigger pressure on the 17, IIRC) unintentionally. Which is, IMHO, a damn good argument for not running around with a loaded Glock in your hands and your finger anywhere near the trigger.

But I'm not an expert on Glocks, and it's been years since I handled one, let alone stripped it.

EDIT - Yes, I accept it may not have been a Glock. That was just an example.

EDIT 2 - Sorry Nicho, didn't see your post where you said most of this. But just to reinforce and clarify what both you and I said, the slide lock doesn't lock the slide from being used, it locks it from being removed, so has to be disengaged as part of a rather fiddly striping process, and not to use the weapon.