This is why i think the Dole needs to be scrapped

[TheAnimus]

you can't find any work other than menial work for pay that works out less than the dole payments after tax...

You see, thats the problem.

The notion that someone would get MORE for NOT working.

That means the dole is skewing the system, and hampers job creation, because people have to be paid more than the dole, this should create inflation (a bad thing) because people are been paid more than the free market wishes.

So there is the other idea that tax is too high, if its making people choose a life of dole rather than work.

Or there is an idea that there should be a hudge moral push to force people to take the first job, even if its 'beneath' them. This is something that annoys the crap out of me. My sister does it to me, she completely forgets that i was earning (actually a quite good) as a dish washer. A job managing developement for a $2bn business didn't just land in my fricken lap, i had to prove myself at all sorts of things. This isn't remotely abnormal, my old boss, my old mentor, all had frankly 'bad' jobs before they worked to where they are now.

[Blitzen]

Where the hell did that rant come from? Ignore him Cozwin, sorry Blitzen but why do you see the need to get all authoritive with a 17 year old who's just proud of the fact he's employed and making some money? Good for him, he never once suggested that his wage would be ample for someone raising a family, get off your high horse.

Its not a rant and if you made the effort to read the previous post, it was in the response to him calling people that are unemployed 'lazy'.
I actually congratulated him for earning and starting to make his own way. Before putting your foot in your mouth again try reading post through rather than imagining them.

Anyway, what are you? His dad?

[SiM]

Dole people are probably going to be the biggest spenders over the next year... they may keep this economy afloat

@Blitz: For his age that is not bad. At least he is contributing to the economy. Not all of us can get investment banking (etc.) jobs in our teens...

[Blitzen]

Dole people are probably going to be the biggest spenders over the next year... they may keep this economy afloat

@Blitz: For his age that is not bad. At least he is contributing to the economy. Not all of us can get investment banking (etc.) jobs in our teens...

Come on...look at the context
I congratulated him for making some cash.
I also picked up on the fact that in one breath he stated people were lazy for not working and in the next telling us he earnt £5-6 an hour.
Its good that he is earning but the point i was trying to make is that although £5-6 per hour is fine when you are 17, it is not enough to keep a family or pay bills.

Blanket statements like 'unemployed = lazy' are simply not correct.

[coco]

Chuck them straight into National Service. I give it a day before they have a CV ready.

but .... William, 21, who served in the Army for three and a half years and went to Iraq and Afghanistan, sleeps in the small second bedroom-
and....
In 2006 the children's father, John Purcell, who was separated from Elizabeth but had been visiting the kids, was stabbed to death. Soon after, William was savagely attacked by local gang members and stabbed several times. After a second attack he stopped straying more than a few feet from the house, and started drinking more and more. It's left William so afraid to go out, he can't sign on.

sounds like this guy needs help not vilifying

[Clunk]

Only an idiot need pay for these

yup.

[Bazzlad]

Gotta love Labour and their statistics:

As no-one in the house is actively seeking work, they don't count as "unemployed" and none claims Jobseeker's Allowance.

[Mike Fishcake]

JI may be close to stereotyping here, but it is very easy to say people aren't trying as hard as you when you're in a relatively privileged position.

Quoted for truth. It's one of those things I've noticed on here again and again.

Optimism is a great thing and I applaud anyone that has the drive to look after themselves, but there are plenty of unforseen circumstances that people can find themselves in. It's all very well saying you shouldn't be fussy about what job you should get, but there were several times that I was turned down for a job because I was "too overqualified". Try and get a job on a supermarket checkout; they'll take one look at your CV, see what qualifications you've got and think "they're obviously doing this as a stopgap; why bother training them up if they're just going to bugger off within a few weeks".

If I'm paying National Insurance, I'm bloody well going to use it if I need it. You wouldn't call someone a scrounger for claiming on their insurance if their house burnt down would you?

[Bazzlad]

If I'm paying National Insurance, I'm bloody well going to use it if I need it. You wouldn't call someone a scrounger for claiming on their insurance if their house burnt down would you?

Can you see the part I highlighted Mike, and why it isn't relevant in this case?

She has NEVER paid into the system, so why should she get out?

Just play with numbers for a second (accurate or not)
I read she got around £150 a week.

£150 * 52 = £7800

And let's say that she's done it for 20 years.

£7800 * 20 = £156,000


That's £156,000 of completely free money.
Throw in a free house, no council tax, help with all sorts of bills etc.

Then multiply her by the "8m people of working age in the UK are not working and are categorised as "economically inactive".

£1,248,000,000,000

Any reason why my taxes are so high?

Nice. Economically inactive is probably the most ironic name they could have given these people.

I've been on JSA when I was 18, living in Stoke with 3 people in a house I rented (I was the only person who worked and I only earned £12k) and I lost my job 2 weeks before Christmas, so I understand why JSA is important, but I was working again before I got my first JSA payment, due to a willingness to work anywhere doing anything.

I'm sorry, but it should be cut off if you haven't had a job in 3 years. Simple as*




* Technically not simple as, as people would then get a job, quit in a week, wait 3 years, rinse and repeat. But you ge the idea. It needs reforming.

[Bazzlad]

* Oh and as for the person who said you can't get a job in a supermarket when you've worked somewhere decent/have good qualifications, I'll ask them this:

Do you tailor your CV when you apply for a good job?
- The answer should be yes btw....

Then tailor it down when applying for a bad job. It's common sense.

[Mike Fishcake]

Bazzlad - We're talking at cross purposes here; My complaint wasn't about the woman in the article being treated unfairly, she should be getting medical/psychological help, not just a financial handout to keep her quiet. I was taking issue with the people that reckon all people on the dole are scroungers. I agree with your opinion that the system needs to be reformed. Interesting figures though.

As for the "tailoring down your CV" - maybe if you've got a bit of life experience that's something you'd possibly consider, but considering that the general advice given about CVs is "write down everything you've acheived", those points contradict each other. I'm not saying it's wrong; just that it's understandable why a lot of people wouldn't think of that.

[Blitzen]

Quoted for truth. It's one of those things I've noticed on here again and again.

Optimism is a great thing and I applaud anyone that has the drive to look after themselves, but there are plenty of unforseen circumstances that people can find themselves in. It's all very well saying you shouldn't be fussy about what job you should get, but there were several times that I was turned down for a job because I was "too overqualified". Try and get a job on a supermarket checkout; they'll take one look at your CV, see what qualifications you've got and think "they're obviously doing this as a stopgap; why bother training them up if they're just going to bugger off within a few weeks".

If I'm paying National Insurance, I'm bloody well going to use it if I need it. You wouldn't call someone a scrounger for claiming on their insurance if their house burnt down would you?

Bazzlad - We're talking at cross purposes here; My complaint wasn't about the woman in the article being treated unfairly, she should be getting medical/psychological help, not just a financial handout to keep her quiet. I was taking issue with the people that reckon all people on the dole are scroungers. I agree with your opinion that the system needs to be reformed. Interesting figures though.

As for the "tailoring down your CV" - maybe if you've got a bit of life experience that's something you'd possibly consider, but considering that the general advice given about CVs is "write down everything you've acheived", those points contradict each other. I'm not saying it's wrong; just that it's understandable why a lot of people wouldn't think of that.

Totally agree.
Its a very fine line to tread between being prosperous and having nothing.
Maybe we are all lucky enough to stay on the right side of that line but it can change in an instant.

The (unabused) welfare state is an amazing concept and one the the world over is jealous of.

[TheAnimus]

I'd like to wade in here and say i think it needs to be scrapped, but replaced with something that is much fairer.

At present, i have about 3 months salary saved (net, i wish gross!).

I wouldn't get any benefits until i'd been un-employed for 3 months. If after that time, i'd yet to find a job, i'd be in arrears on my mortgage and be looking at defaulting.

Personally i'd look at a system which if you've been working for a year, would give you 50% of your net, for the first month, immediately, depending on the circumstances of your job loss.

Perminant un-employment benefit would require people to take part in community projects, even if it just ment they had to get up at 6am.

[Blitzen]

I'd like to wade in here and say i think it needs to be scrapped, but replaced with something that is much fairer.

At present, i have about 3 months salary saved (net, i wish gross!).

I wouldn't get any benefits until i'd been un-employed for 3 months. If after that time, i'd yet to find a job, i'd be in arrears on my mortgage and be looking at defaulting.

Personally i'd look at a system which if you've been working for a year, would give you 50% of your net, for the first month, immediately, depending on the circumstances of your job loss.

Perminant un-employment benefit would require people to take part in community projects, even if it just ment they had to get up at 6am.

I actually agree with that (agreeing with Animus is a fresh experience )
To give people money, housing, etc that have paid little/nothing into the system grieves me aswell. Problems arise though when you have the 'Terminally Unemployed', the 'Terminally Unemployable' and to top it off, the immigrants that cant/wont work for whatever reason.

How would we deal with that?
Some parts of this country are scummy enough without people living in cardboard boxes.

This is what i propose for anyone that has been out of work for more than 9 months.
Anyone that is:
16-25: National Service (archaic but look at the benefits to the country as a whole. And give them a bit of self respect and discipline).
25-60: Voluntary work. Litter picking. Poo scraping. Street sweeping. Why not, that way they earn their dole money.
60+: Voluntary work but not manual labour.

I am going to get SLAUGHTERED for these views but if these people wanted avoid the above, then to MAKE them work would/should do the trick.
9 Months is more than enough time for anyone to find gainful employment. If its not, then the said person has serious issues.

[Barrichello]

I am going to get SLAUGHTERED for these views

au contraire....

I think many people would in fact agree.

I am fed up with the feckless living on our taxes long term.

Yes fair enough it should be there to provide a safety net (only of course if you have been in employment paying tax previously of course)

What annoys me is that if you lose your job, and you have savings you get bugger all dole at first, they expect you to live off that until it runs out. Just remember if you are unlucky enough to lose your job and need to claim yet have a nice sum of savings, maybe think about increasing your SIPP/ISA/or going on a shopping spree.I have heard of the term of "saving for a rainy day" but if you have paid your taxes you should gain the benefit of it straight away. Just seems another case of favouring the financially incompetent and another kick in the face for the Frugal.

[Agent]

but .... William, 21, who served in the Army for three and a half years and went to Iraq and Afghanistan, sleeps in the small second bedroom-
and....
In 2006 the children's father, John Purcell, who was separated from Elizabeth but had been visiting the kids, was stabbed to death. Soon after, William was savagely attacked by local gang members and stabbed several times. After a second attack he stopped straying more than a few feet from the house, and started drinking more and more. It's left William so afraid to go out, he can't sign on.

sounds like this guy needs help not vilifying

Read what I quoted and keep it in context. People who don't get a job because they think writing a CV and handing it out is hard should be chucked in right away for a week - so how long it takes them then to get one sorted.