Since no one else has..

[Lucio]

... I thought I'd get the thread started on the recent European treaty going into force.

I'm not as well read on this subject as I'd like, but my gut feeling is that Ireland's recent decision to vote "Yes" to the treaty is possibly the worst thing that could happen for us here in the UK. We're already a marginalised nation, with few natural resources and whilst we've been able to coast the last 100 years on the backs of a global Empire, that time has run out.

I'm trying not to be a doom & gloom merchant, but as an individual, I've never seen anything good to come out of Europe. At least with the UK politics you can sometimes see a ray of hope, but European ones seem to be entirely about placating France and Germany's wishes, two countries with a history of dominating whenever they got the chance.

[peterb]

I thought this summed it up pretty well...



But I think that what really annoys me is that originally the EU was an economic community (the EEC) - one that lowered trade barriers, and that is how it was sold when the UK had a referendum on the subject - about joining the treaty of Rome. No mention then of Political Union, or the creation of a European Superstate.

If that was the intention then, the British people were comprehensively lied to by the politicians of the dfay (so no change there then.)

[Barrichello]

EU Democracy for you.

[Englander]

As with Lucio, I'm similarly under-read on the subject and a visit to wikipedia turned out to simply confuse me. So, anyone willing to explain what the main points of the Lisbon Treaty are in a brief paragraph?

Being only 17, I haven't had a lot of say in this whole EU business (being too young to vote), but from what I understand, we were told that it would provide a wonderful economic advantage. Then, gradually, it has become more and more political to the point where (if Nigel Farage is to be believed) we don't even make most of our own laws anymore. It is for this reason that I shall most likely be voting for UKIP at the next election (my birthday is on Christmas Day, and it really doesn't look likely that Brown will hold the election before then) so that we can have a referendum on staying in the EU, now that we actually know what it's all about. That said, how have we done out of the EU, economically, since we've joined? All I seem to hear about are the extortionate annual costs of being a member all going to subsidise the French farmers.

[Lucio]

As far as I can work out, this treaty is the start of the Federal States of Europe, whereby member countries have their own government that is subservient to the Federal one. In effect, with the establishment of a European President, we've gone from being a bunch of countries trying to work together to being an explict group of Federal states under a President.

[Englander]

As far as I can work out, this treaty is the start of the Federal States of Europe, whereby member countries have their own government that is subservient to the Federal one. In effect, with the establishment of a European President, we've gone from being a bunch of countries trying to work together to being an explict group of Federal states under a President.

Could it essentially be likened to the American system and now the European countries are akin to the different States? (well, assuming the pro-EU people get their way)

Sort of, although the States forming the USA are encouraged to be diverse, to the extent that how they raise taxes is up to there own legislature. The EU parliament wants to harmonise taxation across Europe (a long term goal) and eventaully build a superstate, which to my mind is rather more than a Federal State. But I guess that the "Federal States of Europe" would be a milestone on that road.

[peterb]

Briefly.

The EU was conceived as the European Economic Community to abolish trade tariffs and protectionism, and was preceded by EFTA (European Free Trade Association. Erope was in economic devastation after the second world war. Britain still had the remnants of an empitre and many of our natural resources came from outside the EU.

Germany was divided, France humiliated, Italy defeated and there was a drive to rebuild the Eropean nations and free trade was seen to be the method. The initail set up was enshrined in the Treaty of Rome.

Britain initially declined to join (it would have meant turnimng our backs on the empire) and subsequent attempts were blocked by General De gaulle (France). Eventually under Edward Heath Britain fid join following a referendum in 1975.

Since then the EEC (as it was - European Economic Community) became the EC *European Community), and the EU. (European Union) Successive treaties (Notably the Maastricht treaty) have established the European parliament and a law/regulation making body (democratically elected) to which member states agrre (by signing the various treaties) to be bound.

The last major step was the creation of the European constitution. A constitution inplies a nation state, and provisions in the constitution allowed for European Foreign Policy, European System of Justice which would extend the already considerable State like powers that the EU has, and which have supremacy in many areas over our own Parliamentary legislation - in other words we would secede Soverignty to the European State.

In the face of opposition, (all nations had to ratify this, and many held a referendum - as was promised to the British peopkle by this Government) the Constitution was shelved and it became the Lisbon Treaty. Some say that it is the Constitution in all but name, others claim that it is not. However some nations have ratified it - including Britain, although no referendum was held (because the Government claims it is not the constitution). Ireland originally rekjected the treaty, but (as that was not the answer wanted!) the referendum has been held again, just 18 months later, and a yes vote has been otained.

The EU is not all bad - some legislation has been helpful, particularly consumer rights, but other legislation has not. The problem is the "one hat fits all" approach in failing to recognise culteral differences and tradition. Britain is particularly zealous in adopting EU directives, other countries tend to pay lip service to them.

One example of the loss of soverignty (the right to govern our ourelves) is in jurispriudence. The highest court is not the House of Lords (or theSupreme court from last week) but the European Court, sitting in Strasburg.

A VERY brief (and incomplete!) summary