So Jesus took a wife

[fuddam]

I've caught up on this thread, and there was a point where it was brought back to a matter of belief. ik9000 talked about evidence. These seem to be contradictory, but....

to repeat something I've said before, on many threads, as Christians we do not follow a book. We follow Christ. (Of course, like ik9000, and others here, I believe the Bible to be correct, accurate, relevant and without error.)

The point is, no matter how many times someone wishes to denigrate the text itself, the fundamental evidence is in the HERE AND NOW. The very real evidence of Christ's impact on MY life, *now*. Yes, I know someone will now jump on the bandwagon of subjectivity, claiming that I'm hearing little voices, am deluded, hallucinating etc, but that is as useful, in this case, as claiming (eg) love is bogus, since they've never experienced it. They can't see love, hear it, taste it, prove it/disprove it other than claim it is all down to chemical reactions. So they throw it out as fiction.

When you accept Christ's absolutely tangible love, in your own life, and experience the release from guilt, from death, etc, you cross over the divide. No, not some brainwashing, sorry.

So, yes, it happens on a personal level, but that is the case for all relationships. The point is that THAT is the difference - we do not hold to an ancient text out of wishful thinking; it is based on what is happening in our lives NOW.

[TheAnimus]

When you accept Christ's absolutely tangible love, in your own life, and experience the release from guilt, from death, etc, you cross over the divide. No, not some brainwashing, sorry.

Systematic effort to destroy an individual's former loyalties and beliefs and to substitute loyalty to a new ideology or power.

You see why to an outsider it is just the two sides of the same coin?

Then you apply an updated with game theory version of pascals wager, this fixes the main flaw it has of exclusive monotheism.


So no one doubts that there was someone who was named something which translates as Jesus, hell its a popular name to this day in many Latin American countries.

What people doubt is that he is the son of god, some think he was just a prophet, but there is no real evidence that was the case.

So we can in all probability say, many Jesus will have been married, many will have died alone. Any evidence that one of them was the sun of 'god' is hard, particularly due to the complete lack of evidence for god.

[Dingo]

All this talk about poor being oppressed in religious countries etc etc. Has anyone who follows that line actually noticed that the richest, most prosperous country on earth is the US, *the* most overtly Christian country? just sayin'.

and following pretty close by are the European biggies. Ho hum.

And your premise for it being the most overtly Christian country would be what exactly?....are you basing that assumption on televised bible bashing programmes or do you have numbers to prove it....and what are you classing as a christian as it seems that, having been christened as a child, then I too am a christian!!.........but of course I had no choice or free will in that decision did I as the Church had deemed that i was either christened or, we are back to it again, punished (not me directly of course) .......my parents would be seen as different, non compliant, dangerous even and not one of the "flock".
You should also take into account that regardless of how rich a country allegedly is, that the wealth in those countries is normally held by less than 10% of the population, meaning poverty is widespread.
http://www.census.gov/hhes/www/poverty/about/overview/ giving ample opportunity for the christian groups to distribute welfare and set about recruitment drives in the name of the Saviour.


Anyway I digress, my own personal choice for the most overtly christian country would be Malta where there is a church on virtually every corner and apparently most of them actually believe strongly enough to partake of the religion rather than pay lip service..............http://theologica.ning.com/profiles/...-christians-in


You can find many examples if you care to look at the declining popularity of christianity in western nations over the last ten years, but, coincidentally, you are also likely to find there will be an increase in the next few years as the worldwide recession takes hold. Not, as you might imagine because of a religious resurgence, but because in times of hardship, stress and poverty people look for salvation for want of a better word, big hugs would be more accurate, and that makes them perfect prey!!.

[Zak33]

Has anyone who follows that line actually noticed that the richest, most prosperous country on earth is the US, *the* most overtly Christian country?

the most Christian Country? now you're off on the wild side of assumption.

To me.. the Most Christian Country would be those where everyone is Christian....not where the highest number are Christian

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christianity_by_country

Filter that list into % of Christian.....

Pitcairn Islands (details) 50 100.0%
Vatican City (details) 2,800 100.0%
Romania (details) 20,930,000 99.5%
Papua New Guinea (details) 6,800,000 99.2%
Greece (details) 11,204,000 99.1%
Ecuador (details) 14,099,000 99.0%
Armenia (details) 3,250,000 98.7%
Equatorial Guinea (details) 683,000 98.6%
East Timor (details) 1,152,000 98.4%
American Samoa (details) 70,000 98.3%
Moldova (details) 3,503,000 98.3%
Malta (details) 408,000 98.0%
Venezuela (details) 28,340,000 98.0%
Colombia (details) 44,502,000 97.6%
Zambia (details) 12,939,000 97.6%
Guatemala (details) 14,018,000 97.5%
Mexico (details) 107,095,000 97.5%
Grenada (details) 101,000 97.3%
Bolivia (details) 9,730,000 97.0%
Puerto Rico (details) 3,878,000 97.0%
San Marino (details) 31,000 97.0%
Paraguay (details) 6,260,000 96.9%
Greenland (details) 55,000 96.6%
Bahamas (details) 350,000 96.3%
British Virgin Islands (details) 23,000 96.0%
Poland (details) 36,526,000 95.7%
Congo, Democratic Republic of (details) 68,558,000 95.6%
Micronesia, Federated States of (details) 106,000 95.4%
Dominican Republic (details) 9,734,000 95.2%
Barbados (details) 244,000 95.0%
Cape Verde (details) 487,000 95.0%
Iceland (details) 300,000 95.0%
Portugal (details) 10,110,000[30] 94.7%
Seychelles (details) 80,000 94.7%
Cook Islands (details) 19,000 94.3%
Falkland Islands (details) 3,000 94.3%
Ireland (details) 4,220,000 94.1%
Faroe Islands (details) 46,000 94.0%
Peru (details) 27,635,000 93.8%
Rwanda (details) 9,619,000 93.6%
Serbia (details) 9,138,000 93.5%
Philippines (details) 90,530,000 93.1%
Argentina (details) 37,561,000 92.7%
Croatia (details) 4,107,000 92.6%
Panama (details) 3,057,000 92.0%
Italy (details) 54,386,000 91.5%
Ukraine (details) 41,973,000 91.5%
Congo, Republic of (details) 3,409,000 90.7%
Anguilla (details) 15,000 90.5%
Brazil (details) 175,501,000 90.4%
Aruba (details) 98,000 90.1%
Andorra (details) 78,000 90.0%
Angola (details) 17,094,000 90.0%
Lesotho (details) 1,876,000 90.0%
Namibia (details) 1,991,000 90.0%

[Zak33]

so.. Greece, Armenia... Poland.. all more Christian than the US

[Zak33]

Rwanda... Serbia....

[Zak33]

in % terms... I see Spain as more Christian than India for example
India (details) 40,113,000 4.1%
Spain (details) 38,568,000 79.2%

even though there are more Chistians IN India....

[TheAnimus]

All this talk about poor being oppressed in religious countries etc etc. Has anyone who follows that line actually noticed that the richest, most prosperous country on earth is the US, *the* most overtly Christian country?

Everyone else has jumped on how that is simply untrue.

What I'd propose is your example actually hurts the integrity of your believes, as the US was founded after all as a place for people escaping religious persecution. In fact you'd see a decline in religious believes and prosperity for the simple reason when live is good no one needs believes in god.

[pollaxe]

When you accept Christ's absolutely tangible love, in your own life, and experience the release from guilt, from death, etc, you cross over the divide. No, not some brainwashing, sorry.

So, yes, it happens on a personal level, but that is the case for all relationships. The point is that THAT is the difference - we do not hold to an ancient text out of wishful thinking; it is based on what is happening in our lives NOW.

I don't seek to stamp on your beliefs here but I have to ask, do you not think people felt the same way towards Zeus, Apollo, Thor, Mithras, Cybele and all the others?

[MadduckUK]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1t6np...feature=g-vrec

[CAT-THE-FIFTH]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1t6np...feature=g-vrec

[Zak33]

I'm now going to do the honourable thing... and without being a changeling, nor a devious little so-and-so... and more important...not being a believer.....


I'm gonna change sides.

Because, the ONE thing that I'm very pleased to see.. to find in depth and tangible quality, is the honest strength of the argument that our in-house-Christians offer.

Galant in particular... is galant tbh

[Zak33]

/deep breath.

I can't ignore my belief in dinosaur bones, nor my moderate understanding of evolution.

But I CAN believe in my own trust of certain things:

I got married (civil ceremony and not a Church) and I was GUTTED to not be allowed music with religious connotations: not because the WORDS mean truth to me.. but because I love them. And if I love them, surely the person who wrote them, aimed those words at his/her god, and believed them to be praising a lord on high somehow.

right now I have the Wells Cathedral Choir (notable for the girls singing too) playing on my speakers. "The Lamb", a Christmas piece as it goes, but so beautiful as to make a man weep if he felt a tad sad.

Cathedral..... choir. .. Cathedral..... one of my favourite trips is to a Cathedral. Architecture is 1/4 of the trip... the rest is....... not bricks and mortar.

This is hard... but it's all true.

I didn't mind Harvest festival at school. I sang in the choir. I enjoyed it to be honest. So did my life long mate SAOFG..... he's a non believing big arsed builder now who plays Eve... but he sang really well. In a choir.

the thing is... it didn't hurt me. nor him.

[Zak33]

I don't seek to stamp on your beliefs here but I have to ask, do you not think people felt the same way towards Zeus, Apollo, Thor, Mithras, Cybele and all the others?

Pollaxe... I think they DID believe that of Zeus.. Apollo... Mercury.... Aphrodite.... Neptune.

But... scientists honestly thought the world was flat.. that rats were created from rotting grain... that bleeding you would heal you... that leech's were always a good idea!

Religion has moved on I think.. and it fits today for the people who want it to fit.

O Magnum mysterium is playing now......


O magnum mysterium,
et admirabile sacramentum,
ut animalia viderent Dominum natum,
jacentem in praesepio!
Beata Virgo, cujus viscera
meruerunt portare
Dominum Christum.
Alleluia.

or


O great mystery,
and wonderful sacrament,
that animals should see the new-born Lord,
lying in a manger!
Blessed is the Virgin whose womb
was worthy to bear
Christ the Lord.
Alleluia!

it's easier to deal with in Latin, because it ... fits.

the beauty hurts.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9y9yM53TowA this one is Westminster.. not Wells.. but if your heart moves no further today than this... allow it this scant move towards a response from the Matins of Christmas

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/O_Magnum_Mysterium

[TeePee]

What I'd propose is your example actually hurts the integrity of your believes, as the US was founded after all as a place for people escaping religious persecution.

Careful with that one..

The Puritans came here not to escape persecution, but to persecute.

They thought that the Church of England was too lenient toward other religions, particularly Catholicism, and allowing such things as Games on Sundays and Crucifixes in churches were seen as being overly popish.

They came to the US with the express purpose of setting up a theocratic government, and did indeed persecute anyone who did not share their beliefs. The most well known being Mary Dyer, who was executed for being a Quaker.

While 17th Century Europe wasn't exactly a happy place for anyone, the 'fleeing persecution' myth is a classic example of revisionist history.

[MadduckUK]

Zak are you drunk again