Salmond wants the euro - he also wants the pound whilst Scotland gtet into the EU - best of both worlds.
a discussion I had with a north scotamsn (interestingly , the southern Scotsman are more pro uk I think? tis the north that wants out). he thinks the entire defence `issue` is moot - we already have bases ! where you think they train - I did then mention the entire contracts `thing` to which he waved it off ` they'll work those out`....
I didn't see the actual speech either, so currently all I've seen is quotes, albeit from several different sources, including the BBC and the Guardian.Originally Posted by peterb
I didn't see any "deconstruction" at all, let alone point by point. All I saw was more speculative claims of the costs, an assertion that British firms "won't let" Osborne do that, and a manipulative assertion that it's a "George tax". That ignores, of course, that first, those firms can't stop him, second, Osborne is more concerned with voters than firms, and third, the "George tax" might more fairly be called the "George, Ed and Danny decision". It's clear it's not a George position, or even a Tory position, but that the same decision stands if we have a Labour government, Labour/LD coalition, or another Tory/LD coalition.
Salmond (and George1979) might be right that Westminster "dictat" won't play well in Scotland, and that bodes well for independence. Well, if Scots are really stupid enough to believe that the SNP are an impartial arbiter of what's in the rest of the UK's best interests, and that all three parties are just "bluffing" by unequivocal statements, so be it. There's the door. Don't let it hit you in the ass on the way out. But when it turns out that it wasn't a bluff but that they actually meant exactly what they said, don't be surprised. Fortunately, I don't believe Scots, or anyone else (except perhaps the SNP, though I doubt even they actually believe that line) are that stupid, and while they might vote yes, it won't be because they swallow that hogwash, but for other, perfectly good, reasons, like the desire for seld-determination george1879 referred to.
In other words, the bluster, bombast and utterly unsupported assertion we're used to from him. One more thread in his self-delusion that he can have what he wants because he wants it. Well, maybe he can have independence. What he CAN'T have is either currency union or even EU membership unless third party governments agree to it, that being Westminster in the former case, and some 28 others including the UK in the latter.
So nothing I've seen changes my opinion of either him, or his claims. BUT, I'm fully aware of the dangers of filtering what people said through media outlets, be it the BBC, or newspapers, not least because if the way the SNP filtered what Carney said to make it sound like he supported their case, when he absolutely did not.
So, in short, I still want to see the unexpurgated version of Salmond's speech before reaching a firm personal view.
Erm, not as I understand it.
They wanted the Euro, yes. Past tense. The Euro was great, they wanted the "Celtic Tiger" economies, countries like Ireland and Iceland were their idols, and the pound was "sinking like a stone".
Riiiiight!
They no longer, at least according to SNP Finance Minister, want the Euro. They have, and I quote from today's Sunday Politics, "no intention of joining the Euro". His logic was the Swedish example, as above, about not joining the ERM. Thing is, Maastricht requires, absolutely requires, that they 'commit to joining the euro' and working towards meeting the criteria, including ERM2 membership. If an independent Scotland thinks it can dictate membership terms, including not joining the Euro, to the EU, in outright contravention of Maastricht, it's even more deluded than I thought.
Their logic, frankly, is in tatters.
Oh, and I wondered, earlier, if Barroso would "clarify" his comments and row back from what he said.
Apparently not. Not a bit of it. In fact, he's emphatically reaffirmed he meant exactly what he said. He's confirmed his comments were pre-planned, and NOT a "slip of the tongue".
He's subsequently stated that while Scotland's vote to go independent or not is entirely a matter for the Scottish and British people, he wants the Scottish people to be in no doubt how the EU commission sees things, which is :-
1) Continuing membership is a non-starter.
2) Scotland can apply, subject to the usual processes.
3) For reasons which may well have nothing to do with Scotland's eligibility, it will be "extremely difficult, if not impossible" to get in.
Again, the SNP stance is just that he, like everybody else that disagrees with them is just wrong.
The voters in the referendum will gave to decide who they believe ... and indeed, if they care about currency union or EU membership. As george1979 points out, maybe exercising Scotland's place in the world means being on their own. It certainly could be done. Others do it, and I've no doubt Scotland could do too.
BUT .... isn't the honest thing to then discuss both the advantages and disadvantages of that with the Scottish people? But the SNP refuse to engage with that scenario, maintaining instead that they will, guaranteed, get EU membership and RofUK currency union, because they say so, and no other possibility matters.
All that suggests to me is the SNP want independence, whatever the implications or costs, and don't care if they deceive the people to do it.
I only saw the clip on the BBC website, but Iit struck me that Salmon looked like a man who has suddenly taken a reality pill, and found it distinctly unpalatable, and now trying to hide the taste.
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he looked like a man with no plan B whilst plan A is falling apart around him so he wants to try and BS as much as he can - so he can claim political mileage when it does fall apart.
btw - how can the rest of the UK get a referendum ` can we cut Scotland loose anyway` - if they vote no In September?
well, snp is republican too. just going at it 1 thing at a time. they have a hard enough time doing this already without jump on the euro ship and ditching the queen too at the same time.
snp's argument about euro not a barrier to membership is based on them not really being a new member and the nice chaps over there would make an exception for scotland with some fudge. much like the nice chaps in london will let them have the cake and eat it with the BoE. funny, what government will let some foreigner have a stake or say on their central bank? (unless they are begging for money)
as for a referendum to chuck scotland out. you would think if there was ever such a vote, we would have asked for one to chuck northern ireland out a long time ago.
Scotland not in the EU and not shackled to the pound would a fantastic economically liberated country. I've never had one opportunity to vote on the bureaucratic authoritarian EU. Imagine you could have control over you finances and not have some former Canadian Goldman sach banker with a housing allowance of £5,000 a month setting your interest rates.
http://www.saveoursavers.co.uk/autho...ldron-of-debt/
I'm wary of the figures from saveoursavers.co.uk. For example house price to earnings ratios are way out compared to some other published figures.
For example http://www.economicshelp.org/blog/55...affordability/
Re: voting on the EU, nor have I had a chance at that, and for that matter, not a single citizen/subject in the UK has EVER had such a chance, other than those in government. And until we get one, the resentment is going to simmer, bubble and maybe, boil over. That's why I think, sooner or later, we'll get one.
It's also why I agree that, whatever the outcome, Scots have to decide in or out, and for whatever reason, economic, political or nationalistic. If they want to stay in, great. If not, fair enough. I just hope they don't fall for the SNP line that everyone else is going to take the SNP wishlist of what's in RotUK or EU at face value.
Are you taking this referendum personally or something? Is the people of Scotland exercising their democratic right something that deserves this kind response? I believe the UK (whether Scotland is in it or not) is also about to have their own referendum in 2017 on being part of a larger Union - should that not be allowed either?
sounds like your upset over all of this - why cant the rest of the uk exercise their democratic right and get asked ` do we really still want Scotland with us` in a referendum....
even if you get one, it's still going to linger around if you get a yes to EU. sooner or later, someone will pop up and say... we never voted for that, after eu evolves again.
I think Halloweenjack's point is that this isn't "just" about Scotland. Independence has repercussions on RofUK. Even Salmond admits that. Salmond paints it as a negative effect, and deigns to (in his view) mitigate it by remaining in a currency union (while it suits him) and so on.
There is an alternative view that holds that RofUK would be better off without Scotland, and being dictated to by Salmond is getting up more than a few peoples noses, and therefore would like to be shot of Scotland regardless of the Scottish view.
Any case for a national referendum would, I suggest, lie in the concept that democracy should involve ALL the people affected, which includes the RofUK.
As for the 2017 referendum, that is about staying in a union that has evolved over 35 years, not 350 years, and is somewhat different in concept and construction from that of the Act of Union that created the United Kingdom.
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Not upset - just a little fed up with how this is being portrayed in the media in some quarters - i.e. like in the video I posted before - which then provokes reactions such as yours. By removing all sense from the debate and looking at it rationally it provokes polarized views.
Salmond is not Scotland. He can't dictate anything to the rest of the UK so I don't see your point. Cameron can dictate to Scotland however. The rest of the UK already gets to exercise their democratic right - none of the three main UK political parties want a break up and they are your elected representatives. If you want them to take that view then there is a democratic process available for you to pursue that but there is no appetite amongst the parties for it. And no - the rest of the UK should not have a vote on Scottish independence - that is a preposterous idea as I think you well know.
Should the UK have got a vote during the Commonwealth countries path to independence is that also affected us? Of course not.
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