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Thread: Ukraine, Russia and Crimea situation

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    Re: Ukraine, Russia and Crimea situation

    Quote Originally Posted by j1979 View Post
    If Russia can offer Crimea an IN referendum when Crimea is not Russian Territory, why can't it offer a OUT referendum in Chechnya that is a Russian Federation subject?
    So the result of the protests, an elected official was ousted.

    That official had asked for help from Russia, and ultimately it has decided to just provide at most paramilitary policing.

    I'm reminded of the problems with democracy in somewhere like Thailand. In Thailand (gross simplification time!) you've got a divide between the rich in Cities (Bangkok, Chaing Mai) and those who are dirt poor in the countryside. The dirt poor types want the less democratic royalist government, those in the city want the more democratic government.

    They fight and fight about who it should be. The cities are very density populated, where as the countryside is sparse. If you allow just equal weight on a citizens vote, the city dwellers win, if you allow weighting on geographic region, the country folk win.

    It isn't black and white. It isn't simple.

    Now my understanding in Ukraine is there are more than two major parties with opposing views.

    Cat had links which are somewhat verifiable. Your response is my friends, I know better, I've been there etc.
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    Re: Ukraine, Russia and Crimea situation

    Quote Originally Posted by j1979 View Post
    What has that got to do with it? I can pull up links on racist attacks not involving football from any EU county or ex CIS country. It makes no difference.

    The most blatant racism I ever experienced in my life was in southern Spain. Other people will have diffent experiences.

    So FUD off and find start a new thread if you want. Im sure if i was going off topic, it would be pointed out.
    But lets look at your OP.

    Quote Originally Posted by j1979 View Post
    1. WWI. Russia deemed that they could not afford to see Sarajevo humiliated by the Germans - Now Russia seems to be suggesting that they can't afford to see Russian speaking Ukrainians take a back seat politically and they see this as US/EU sponsored humiliation.
    Yes,you mean all the divide and conquer antics the UK and other superpowers did in the last 100 years??

    Or the creation of Israel to appease all the poor Jewish people killed by the Nazis?? Of course screw the Palestinians there beforehand.

    The UK invaded Northern Ireland and annexed it,in support of helping Protestants because they were being targetted.

    Plenty of examples out there. Why stop at Russia?

    Ignore the others right?? Got you.

    Throughout history powerful countries have invaded and changed governments to their liking.

    Is it horrible? Yes,but too many countries do it.

    Go around to any part of the world and ask people who the worst country for them is??

    It is usually their neighbour and especially the powerful ones.

    Taiwan and China and Pakistan and India all come to mind.

    Quote Originally Posted by j1979 View Post
    2. Economy. WWII the Germans had a terrible economy, a bad economy with a bad leader looks outwards. Russia's economy is heavily based on natural resources, but thats it. Read what you like but, the boom times are well and truly over and although not in terrible shape, they aren't as rolling in it as they like to perceive, and the wealth gap in Russia is huge.
    You mean like the fact the US and many European countries are bankrupt or need massive loans to survive on. Most of the world has economic problems and there are massive wealth inequalities in many countries like the US for example.

    Russia went from a centrally planned economy to a free market one,and it an economic collapse in the late 90s. Compared to then the country is in far better shape.

    But a country having problems during the worst recession in global history for decades?? Never.

    Even China is mucking around with its own currency too,to make sure it keeps growing.


    Quote Originally Posted by j1979 View Post
    3. A Psychopathic leader with an Ego. over 160 Journalist have been murdered in Russia since Putin took over, lucky journalists get sent to court. another 200 have be "accidentally" killed in crossfire while reporting.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...lled_in_Russia
    Yes,terrible isn't it?

    Funny how Russia is not top of the list in the last year:

    http://www.policymic.com/articles/78...or-journalists

    Wait India is above it. I expect Sri Lanka is too.

    Lets look at numbers jailed:

    http://www.theguardian.com/media/gre...-safety-turkey

    According to a special report by Elana Beiser, CPJ's editorial director, Turkey was the world's leading jailer of journalists for the second year running, followed closely by Iran and China

    Quote Originally Posted by j1979 View Post
    4. Strained relations. the Russian / West relationship has been strained in recent years. Syria , Iran and smaller fall outs litvinenko etc.

    5. Political Insults. There were a fair few swipes from Germany and vice versa, before the declaration of war finally happened.
    Putins body language to EU and US leaders is terrible, he always seems to be uptight at these meetings. All my Russian friends are saying that the Olympic ring mistake at Sochi, was on purpose... the ring that didn't open is supposed to represent America according to friends on vk.com
    And?? China has an on and off relationship with the west for the last 60+ years. Forgotten the yellow peril comments even a few decades ago??

    Even India has had political fallout with the US on several occasions.

    Plus the 1980 and 1984 Olympics had worse retaliations than Sochi.

    News flash as countries with different needs fall out with other countries with different needs.

    The world is usually one big happy family with everyone agreeing.

    Only those pesky Russians.

    Not.

    Quote Originally Posted by j1979 View Post
    6. censorship, propaganda, and bending spines. Russia passed a new law only yesterday. They can now ban any website without reason. State TV is full of propaganda, if you want a watered down version turn to Russia today on freeview.
    You mean like the censorship and spying in multiple countries around the world? Visit Asia and Africa and it will open your eyes.

    Or the fact we have censorship even in a liberal country like here,or the fact we are being spied upon at every chance:

    http://www.theguardian.com/world/201...internet-yahoo

    I like how China was mocked for the Great Firewall. Looks like our intelligence agencies didn't really care in reality.

    Quote Originally Posted by j1979 View Post
    7. Didn't Hitler stage the Olympics just before WWII?
    Really??

    Last edited by CAT-THE-FIFTH; 02-03-2014 at 01:59 PM.

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    Re: Ukraine, Russia and Crimea situation

    Quote Originally Posted by CAT-THE-FIFTH View Post
    Yawn. Its funny when not all the links were about football.

    It seems you are so biased,you deflect all negativity about the Ukraine from everyone.

    Its easy to blame external countries,but most of the problems in the Ukraine are down to a weak political elite,plus general corruption and racism in the country as a whole.

    Its the corruption in the country which has lead to its problems. The fault of its own people.

    Its happened in South America,Africa,Asia,etc. The Ukraine has 23 years of independence,and still has metric ton of problems.

    All you have poxy nationalists fighting among themselves looking for enemies.

    By running to the Russians or the EU and US,the country is always going to be under the thumb of some more powerful country. It really needs less nationalism and more patriotism and people who generally care more about the country and all its different peoples,than currying favour with external forces or hating on different kinds of people.

    Powerful countries only help weaker ones to help themselves and will exploit them. Its the reason why Europe and US sit on nearly 2/3 of the world's wealth alone,with barely 1 billion people out of the 7+ billion people on this planet.
    Listen , and listen good. My in-laws are in Crimea occupied illegally by Russian troops. The war could start at any time. You called me paranoid for suggesting we could get to this point 3 months ago. But I could foresee what would happen. Because I know the history well.

    Every time Ukraine has had a pro western government since it's independence it has been sabotaged by Russia.

    Ukraine has the right to democratic elections that will be held on May 25th.

    Why do you think Russia has the right to step in ? tell me why they have the right? and don't start talking about US, UK, EU foreign policy.

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    Re: Ukraine, Russia and Crimea situation

    Quote Originally Posted by CAT-THE-FIFTH View Post
    The UK invaded Northern Ireland and annexed it,in support of helping Protestants because they were being targetted.
    the UK went into NI in the 1960`s to help the poor catholics who were being targeted - but thanks to 1 or 10 heavy handed operations , turned them against the brits.

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    Senior Member j1979's Avatar
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    Re: Ukraine, Russia and Crimea situation

    Quote Originally Posted by TheAnimus View Post
    So the result of the protests, an elected official was ousted.

    That official had asked for help from Russia, and ultimately it has decided to just provide at most paramilitary policing.

    I'm reminded of the problems with democracy in somewhere like Thailand. In Thailand (gross simplification time!) you've got a divide between the rich in Cities (Bangkok, Chaing Mai) and those who are dirt poor in the countryside. The dirt poor types want the less democratic royalist government, those in the city want the more democratic government.

    They fight and fight about who it should be. The cities are very density populated, where as the countryside is sparse. If you allow just equal weight on a citizens vote, the city dwellers win, if you allow weighting on geographic region, the country folk win.

    It isn't black and white. It isn't simple.

    Now my understanding in Ukraine is there are more than two major parties with opposing views.

    Cat had links which are somewhat verifiable. Your response is my friends, I know better, I've been there etc.

    That official (the new "Crimean PM") was placed there by Russian special forces!

    Not after 3 months of peaceful protest that was ended after the president banned protests and also banned people from wearing protective clothing. followed by clearing the protest and when they didn't move open fire on them.

    Now all Russia should do is wait for the democratic elections on May 25th.

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    Re: Ukraine, Russia and Crimea situation

    Quote Originally Posted by GoNz0 View Post
    After moderators have stepped in. I was enjoying this thread. :-)
    There's been no stomping on what can be said about the thread subject. Merely how it can be said.

    If it's said without personalising it and lobbying veiled insults or derogatory remarks, we actually get a far better discussion of the actual issues. The other way, we get a brief flamefest that not only shuts down the actual topic, but puts everybody else off posting.

    So if what you were enjoying was flaming, well, there are plenty of places on the net where you can find it. Here, however, we expect members to treat each other with at least reasonable courtesy. One snippy remark is likeky to provoke a response in the same tone, and what follows is often a descent into flaming,

    Also, nowhere, absolutely nowhere on earth, is there 'free speech'. There are ALWAYS limits. Breaching some of them will get you sued, or arrested, and even jailed, even in countries where a relatively high degree of free speech is constitutionally guaranteed. There are rules, even there. As there are here.

    So no, we haven't censored anything here. We just expect a reasonable level of politeness, because when two or three people start to get a bit heated, it doesn't just wreck the thread for them but for all other members, and for visitors seeing it before joining.

    If you want a debate, even argument, over the issues, then feel free. But for handbags at dawn, this is the wrong site.

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    Senior Member j1979's Avatar
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    Re: Ukraine, Russia and Crimea situation

    Quote Originally Posted by CAT-THE-FIFTH View Post
    But lets look at your OP.



    Yes,you mean all the divide and conquer antics the UK and other superpowers did in the last 100 years??

    Or the creation of Israel to appease all the poor Jewish people killed by the Nazis?? Of course screw the Palestinians there beforehand.

    The UK invaded Northern Ireland and annexed it,in support of helping Protestants because they were being targetted.

    Plenty of examples out there. Why stop at Russia?

    Ignore the others right?? Got you.

    Throughout history powerful countries have invaded and changed governments to their liking.

    Is it horrible? Yes,but too many countries do it.

    Go around to any part of the world and ask people who the worst country for them is??

    It is usually their neighbour and especially the powerful ones.

    Taiwan and China and Pakistan and India all come to mind.



    You mean like the fact the US and many European countries are bankrupt or need massive loans to survive on. Most of the world has economic problems and there are massive wealth inequalities in many countries like the US for example.

    Russia went from a centrally planned economy to a free market one,and it an economic collapse in the late 90s. Compared to then the country is in far better shape.

    But a country having problems during the worst recession in global history for decades?? Never.

    Even China is mucking around with its own currency too,to make sure it keeps growing.




    Yes,terrible isn't it?

    Funny how Russia is not top of the list in the last year:

    http://www.policymic.com/articles/78...or-journalists

    Wait India is above it. I expect Sri Lanka is too.

    Lets look at numbers jailed:

    http://www.theguardian.com/media/gre...-safety-turkey






    And?? China has an on and off relationship with the west for the last 60+ years. Forgotten the yellow peril comments even a few decades ago??

    Even India has had political fallout with the US on several occasions.

    Plus the 1980 and 1984 Olympics had worse retaliations than Sochi.

    News flash as countries with different needs fall out with other countries with different needs.

    The world is usually one big happy family with everyone agreeing.

    Only those pesky Russians.

    Not.



    You mean like the censorship and spying in multiple countries around the world? Visit Asia and Africa and it will open your eyes.

    Or the fact we have censorship even in a liberal country like here,or the fact we are being spied upon at every chance:

    http://www.theguardian.com/world/201...internet-yahoo

    I like how China was mocked for the Great Firewall. Looks like our intelligence agencies didn't really care in reality.



    Really??



    Go away ! stop spreading FUD.

    How many UK journalist are killed in the UK since the break up of the USSR? 1 (Jill Dando)

    How many Russian journalists are killed in NON WAR ZONES in Russia ? 160.


    STOP GOING OFF TOPIC

    China ?? what has that got to do with Ukraine?
    Sri Lanka??

    Start you own thread! MOD PLEASE

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    Re: Ukraine, Russia and Crimea situation

    Ukranian heavy armour is heading south - this will go to a shooting war and get messy.

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    Senior Member j1979's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Saracen View Post
    There's been no stomping on what can be said about the thread subject. Merely how it can be said.

    If it's said without personalising it and lobbying veiled insults or derogatory remarks, we actually get a far better discussion of the actual issues. The other way, we get a brief flamefest that not only shuts down the actual topic, but puts everybody else off posting.

    So if what you were enjoying was flaming, well, there are plenty of places on the net where you can find it. Here, however, we expect members to treat each other with at least reasonable courtesy. One snippy remark is likeky to provoke a response in the same tone, and what follows is often a descent into flaming,

    Also, nowhere, absolutely nowhere on earth, is there 'free speech'. There are ALWAYS limits. Breaching some of them will get you sued, or arrested, and even jailed, even in countries where a relatively high degree of free speech is constitutionally guaranteed. There are rules, even there. As there are here.

    So no, we haven't censored anything here. We just expect a reasonable level of politeness, because when two or three people start to get a bit heated, it doesn't just wreck the thread for them but for all other members, and for visitors seeing it before joining.

    If you want a debate, even argument, over the issues, then feel free. But for handbags at dawn, this is the wrong site.

    When I went off topic a new thread was started!

    so please start a thread for "CAT-THE-FIFTH" on other counties foreign policy!

    Quote Originally Posted by CAT-THE-FIFTH View Post



    Go back to your armchair! and read the daily mail

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    Re: Ukraine, Russia and Crimea situation

    Quote Originally Posted by j1979 View Post
    Listen , and listen good. My in-laws are in Crimea occupied illegally by Russian troops. The war could start at any time. You called me paranoid for suggesting we could get to this point 3 months ago. But I could foresee what would happen. Because I know the history well.

    Every time Ukraine has had a pro western government since it's independence it has been sabotaged by Russia.

    Ukraine has the right to democratic elections that will be held on May 25th.

    Why do you think Russia has the right to step in ? tell me why they have the right? and don't start talking about US, UK, EU foreign policy.
    I know its a **** situation and I hope your relatives are OK,but the problem is there are voices who want the Russians there or at the very least want their support. If they get ignored,the country could slide into civil war.

    You seem to keep ignoring what these people are saying,and I am not the only one saying it.

    It will make what happens now,look like nothing.


    I know people from that part of the world,and they talk about the corruption which is almost part of everyday life.

    I lived in another country which had a horrible civil war,and it had plenty of foreign poking(three European powers before and India after) for 100s of years,and people were blaiming everyone else for their ills. In the end after 60 years there are still problems. Its the corruption is the problem. People are more worried with lining their own pockets,instead of helping their own countries.

    Most of these people use nationalist hyperbole to stir up the masses to deflect from the own internal problems. Its these lot who end up being influenced by other countries. I have seen enough of it too hate nationalist rhetoric,because it ends up excluding people and creating enemies.

    We need more patriotic people,not nationalists as it tends to be more inclusive.

    What I am seeing in the Ukraine is far too much nationalist rhetoric.

    Regarding why Russia wants to do what it does:

    Of course the Russians also have an economic reason for their actions too - gas pipelines to Europe pass through the Ukraine too. The Russian Black Sea fleet is stationed on Ukranian soil too,and even though there are longterm agreements to keep it until 2042,it is quite possible the new government might want to change that. That would mean the Russians would loose access to the Mediterranean Sea,and their support for Syria has partly been to keep the naval resupply base at Tartarus.

    For Russia there would be a loss of naval power projection in that part of the world,ie,Europe and indeed the middle east and Asia via the Suez canal. It would take years to build another naval base to replace the one they use currently.

    That and with many people in the Russian-Ukranian border regions,appearing to be more likely to be pro-Russian it seems we can see why the Russians are trying to play hardball.
    The reason why I mention our actions,is not because what Russia does is right,its because we have done the same. I think it is slightly misleading to portray what Russia is trying to do as unique to countries they are interested in. You seem to repeatedly want to do it,ie,WW3.

    Remember,Iran is the way it is today,due to overthrow of their democratically elected prime minister in the 1950s,who was replaced by the Shah of Iran,who was eventually deposed and replace by the religious lot,who backstabbed a lot of the liberals who supported them.

    So that is the last 60 years of Iran screwed over by the US and UK,plus weaknesses in its own rule. Its not an isolated case.

    We have done the same with horrible consequences.

    If you are going to go on about WW3,then trying to stop people mentioning the actions of other countries,seems like you are trying to push something too hard.

    Quote Originally Posted by j1979 View Post
    Go back to your armchair! and read the daily mail
    Quote Originally Posted by j1979 View Post
    We are only 40 odd years away from the planned Invasion of Manchester
    http://s1.ibtimes.com/sites/www.ibti...3/maidan-3.jpg
    I think you might have read a bit too much of it!
    Last edited by CAT-THE-FIFTH; 02-03-2014 at 02:26 PM.

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    Re: Ukraine, Russia and Crimea situation

    Quote Originally Posted by j1979 View Post
    Go away ! stop spreading FUD.

    How many UK journalist are killed in the UK since the break up of the USSR? 1 (Jill Dando)

    How many Russian journalists are killed in NON WAR ZONES in Russia ? 160.


    STOP GOING OFF TOPIC

    China ?? what has that got to do with Ukraine?
    Sri Lanka??

    Start you own thread! MOD PLEASE
    Sometimes I hate moderating.

    I've just finished explaining why we don't censor what people can say, and now we're asked to censor what people can say.

    I've read what Cat said, carefully, and several times. I can't see where he's broken rules.

    j1979, I can see that this thread matters to you, and apparently for very personal reasons. And believe me, I feel for anybody with friends or family in any zone of unrest, or worse, especially one as tense, uncertain and fast-moving as Ukraine and Crimea.

    But we can't and won't shut down reasoned argument without good reason. Partly, that's going to be obvious rule breaks (and I can't see any) and sometimes it'll be for other reasons that mods cannot always explain. For instance, there have been occasions when, quite literally, thread content has resulted in discussions between respective sets of solicitors. Yes, really. And, in cases like that, we MAY not be able to explain why we shut things down.

    But, by and large, with rare exceptions, we won't try to censor or constrain people expressing views, or making an argument.

    I can't see any reason to edit, or close, the thread. Maybe another mod will see something I don't, but meantime, all I can suggest is if you think something is off-topic, don't respond to it.

    But I'm not about to explain why we don't censor, and then minutes later, start censoring without extremely good reason.

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    Re: Ukraine, Russia and Crimea situation

    Quote Originally Posted by j1979 View Post
    Go away ! stop spreading FUD.

    How many UK journalist are killed in the UK since the break up of the USSR? 1 (Jill Dando)

    How many Russian journalists are killed in NON WAR ZONES in Russia ? 160.


    STOP GOING OFF TOPIC

    China ?? what has that got to do with Ukraine?
    Sri Lanka??

    Start you own thread! MOD PLEASE
    Quote Originally Posted by j1979 View Post
    When I went off topic a new thread was started!

    so please start a thread for "CAT-THE-FIFTH" on other counties foreign policy!
    India is not a war zone. Neither is Sri Lanka. Neither is Iran,China or Turkey.

    Wait if j1979 does not get his way,it means everyone must stop posting in his thread.

    Everyone must agree.

    Quote Originally Posted by TheAnimus View Post
    So the result of the protests, an elected official was ousted.

    That official had asked for help from Russia, and ultimately it has decided to just provide at most paramilitary policing.

    I'm reminded of the problems with democracy in somewhere like Thailand. In Thailand (gross simplification time!) you've got a divide between the rich in Cities (Bangkok, Chaing Mai) and those who are dirt poor in the countryside. The dirt poor types want the less democratic royalist government, those in the city want the more democratic government.

    They fight and fight about who it should be. The cities are very density populated, where as the countryside is sparse. If you allow just equal weight on a citizens vote, the city dwellers win, if you allow weighting on geographic region, the country folk win.

    It isn't black and white. It isn't simple.

    Now my understanding in Ukraine is there are more than two major parties with opposing views.

    Cat had links which are somewhat verifiable. Your response is my friends, I know better, I've been there etc.
    It seems I must be the only one spreading FUD it seems!!

    But honestly,you j1979 you can have this thread.

    I held back in the last one,on purpose BTW.

    You can keep posting your fantasies of WW3 and invasions of Manchester by the Russians.

    Maybe that is what I found a tad annoying.

    If even came to that the whole world would be destroyed by MAD.
    Last edited by CAT-THE-FIFTH; 02-03-2014 at 02:36 PM.

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    Re: Ukraine, Russia and Crimea situation

    Quote Originally Posted by CAT-THE-FIFTH View Post
    I know its a **** situation and I hope your relatives are OK,but the problem is there are voices who want the Russians there or at the very least want their support. If they get ignored,your country could slide into civil war.
    Ok yes you are 100% correct. And I suspect about 60 - 70% of Crimean feel the same. But there is also a proportion of the Crimean population that would like the US and EU forces there too.


    I am just very aware of how the Russians are using this voice to justify what they are doing. they need to step back.. but now reports are that 6000 more are on the way.

    my original point iin this thread were somewhat tongue in cheek especially about the Olympics before world war. But at the moment Im so scarred about what will happen, I can hardly see the screen for the tears in my eyes.

    Im blubbering like a child as I type because I know when Russia go to war it's carnage and I'm totally helpless. The people I know and love are on the brink, and I personally blame Putin.

    I apologise if I have offended you.

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    Re: Ukraine, Russia and Crimea situation

    Quote Originally Posted by CAT-THE-FIFTH View Post
    India is not a war zone. Neither is Sri Lanka. Neither is Iran,China or Turkey.

    Wait if j1979 does not get his way,it means everyone must stop posting in his thread.

    Everyone must agree.
    Sorry to re-escilate

    but comparing these countries are not relent in my mind, because you are comparing the West to Russia in foreign policy.

    so if comparing journalist deaths you need to also compare the West to Russia... not some other non related country.


    Also back on topic. I personally think there will be a big backlash for this. There are a lot of Ukrainians in US, Canada, Australia, Germany many other EU counties. Turkey have interested in Crimea especially.

    Putin needs to swallow his pride. That's all this conflict needs.
    Last edited by j1979; 02-03-2014 at 02:43 PM.

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    Re: Ukraine, Russia and Crimea situation

    Quote Originally Posted by j1979 View Post
    Ok yes you are 100% correct. And I suspect about 60 - 70% of Crimean feel the same. But there is also a proportion of the Crimean population that would like the US and EU forces there too.


    I am just very aware of how the Russians are using this voice to justify what they are doing. they need to step back.. but now reports are that 6000 more are on the way.

    my original point iin this thread were somewhat tongue in cheek especially about the Olympics before world war. But at the moment Im so scarred about what will happen, I can hardly see the screen for the tears in my eyes.

    Im blubbering like a child as I type because I know when Russia go to war it's carnage and I'm totally helpless. The people I know and love are on the brink, and I personally blame Putin.

    I apologise if I have offended you.
    And given that, I will if you wish close this thread, temporarily at least.

    Everybody feels for anyone there, or in some ways worse, with loved ones there.

    But, we cannot control people making arguments, even when people don't like some of it.

    The thread stays open if you want it to, but we can't force people to agree with you. Is discussing this right now a good idea? It looks like it's just adding to the stress you're under??

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    Re: Ukraine, Russia and Crimea situation

    Quote Originally Posted by j1979 View Post
    Ok yes you are 100% correct. And I suspect about 60 - 70% of Crimean feel the same. But there is also a proportion of the Crimean population that would like the US and EU forces there too.


    I am just very aware of how the Russians are using this voice to justify what they are doing. they need to step back.. but now reports are that 6000 more are on the way.

    my original point iin this thread were somewhat tongue in cheek especially about the Olympics before world war. But at the moment Im so scarred about what will happen, I can hardly see the screen for the tears in my eyes.

    Im blubbering like a child as I type because I know when Russia go to war it's carnage and I'm totally helpless. The people I know and love are on the brink, and I personally blame Putin.

    I apologise if I have offended you.
    Far enough and TBH I have a feeling we will need to agree to disagree on a number of points.

    But like I said there are many in Russia who lost loved ones in Chechnya and many who will never be able to the bury bodies of their loved ones.

    So I expect many people don't want any kind of war on both sides.

    Plus I think its no point engaging in a shouting match anymore.

    So I apologise if I came across as brash or uncaring about the situation you are in.

    Its not so nice living in a situation where everyday might be your last or the last for your loved ones. Been through that before,so I can sympathise with you at least in that regard.

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