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Thread: Ukraine, Russia and Crimea situation

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    Re: Ukraine, Russia and Crimea situation

    Quote Originally Posted by TheAnimus View Post
    Democracy is overrated, as if it stops people with strong opinions who feel unfairly mistreated taking direct action.
    Thats because there arent any democracies, just countries with democratic elections.

    Tyranny by Majority is what countries like the UK and US actually have.

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    Senior Member j1979's Avatar
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    Re: Ukraine, Russia and Crimea situation

    Quote Originally Posted by TheAnimus View Post
    I give up completely.

    Finally

    Quote Originally Posted by TheAnimus View Post
    I'm mean I've mentioned say Holodomor, I am aware why many hate Putin. But you appear to be completely wilful of ignoring, some like the guy. That to some, the protests where the terrorist criminals, you make it sound as if the protests weren't violent at all....

    It makes it very complex. Russia are not doing anything the rest of the world hasn't done in many other nations. Some want them, others do not. This is no different to many other nations. Democracy is overrated, as if it stops people with strong opinions who feel unfairly mistreated taking direct action.
    Yes many like the guy. many like the guy no mater what. But a lot are being spoon fed bull.

    They are showing lies on the TV


    Russian flag raised in Kharkiv

    This guy is Russian from Moscow! he's not born in Ukraine and he only came over the boarder to cause trouble.

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    Senior Member j1979's Avatar
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    Re: Ukraine, Russia and Crimea situation

    and as for the question of a referendum in Crimea?

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crimea

    Ethnic groups from (2001)

    58.32% Russians
    24.32% Ukrainians
    12.10% Crimean Tatars

    Are you sure Russia would win? not all ethnic Russians are so keen to join the motherland.


    In other news Poland still deny sending troops and tanks to Ukraine. This was taken today apparently. close to the Ukrainian boarder in Poland.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-NQyq6sSNGs


    EDIT:

    some people are saying that the Polish are mobilising to Kaliningrad and Ukraine
    Last edited by j1979; 03-03-2014 at 02:17 AM.

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    Senior Member j1979's Avatar
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    Re: Ukraine, Russia and Crimea situation

    Russians on VK.com are saying Russian anti war protesters in Moscow given 30,000 ruble fine or 15 days in prison.

    http://www.channelnewsasia.com/news/...r/1017688.html

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    Senior Member j1979's Avatar
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    Re: Ukraine, Russia and Crimea situation

    Quote Originally Posted by TheAnimus View Post
    I'm close to giving up here. We are only seeing one side.

    Let's say, you lived in the country and where pro Putin. You'd seen the president you voted for displaced after violent protests. Now the regulating strong power arrive, which are one you are in favour of. It's good.

    Just for the record, I'm not pro-putin.

    So... From the internets.



    Points out the hypocrisy.

    These troupes aren't welcomed?





    It's a quagmire. Some people want Putin. Others do not. It won't end well. But you can't simply blame this on Russia. Some people want to be Russian. If you ignore their views, well you are no better than those you disagree with.
    By the way all your pictures are from Russian .ru websites, but thanks for your informed views.

    Ukrainian websites are .ua or .com.ua

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    Re: Ukraine, Russia and Crimea situation

    Quote Originally Posted by j1979 View Post
    By way all your pictures are from Russian .ru websites, but thanks for your informed views.
    And there have been similar scenes shot by Western news crews.

    The point is, SOME in Crimea welcome Russian troops. Some don't. There is more than one point of view.

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    Senior Member j1979's Avatar
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    Re: Ukraine, Russia and Crimea situation


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    Senior Member j1979's Avatar
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    Re: Ukraine, Russia and Crimea situation

    Quote Originally Posted by Saracen View Post
    And there have been similar scenes shot by Western news crews.

    The point is, SOME in Crimea welcome Russian troops. Some don't. There is more than one point of view.

    Yes there is more than 1 point of view. I started to warn of this in December! and was shot down in flames branded as paranoid. A few photos of pro Russian supporters in the heart of Sevastopol / Simferopol, does not in any way justify this man to invade.

    I am trying to get the animus to concede that, these pro-russian supporters are not an excuse to send troops to another country.

    Now look what is happening. Look at the similarities with Georgia.

    1. Russian "Separatists" AKA Russki special forces take over Crimea.

    2. Then install a new Pro-russian leader that asks for assistance and TV channels change to Pro-Russian.

    3. They are showing riots from Kiev as if it were Crimea on Russian TV.

    4. They then force Ukrainian military leaders to quit and install new Pro-Russian leaders that switch sides (how convenient)

    5. Then they stir unrest until the Ukrainian government farts, and he has his justification for war.

    6. Then invade

    7. Blood Bath.


    As per the article I have just pointed out. He is arming Syria from Sevastopol. that's why he is doing this! It's got nothing to do with protecting Russian's they will be fair game to Putin. They will be slaughtered if they get in the way no matter what language they speak.

    I am warning everyone, he is the greatest danger to peace in Europe and the world since Hitler.

    http://www.forbes.com/sites/gregsate...n-into-crimea/

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    Re: Ukraine, Russia and Crimea situation

    Quote Originally Posted by j1979 View Post
    Yes there is more than 1 point of view. I started to warn of this in December! and was shot down in flames branded as paranoid. A few photos of pro Russian supporters in the heart of Sevastopol / Simferopol, does not in any way justify this man to invade.

    I am trying to get the animus to concede that, these pro-russian supporters are not an excuse to send troops to another country.

    Now look what is happening. Look at the similarities with Georgia.

    1. Russian "Separatists" AKA Russki special forces take over Crimea.

    2. Then install a new Pro-russian leader that asks for assistance and TV channels change to Pro-Russian.

    3. They are showing riots from Kiev as if it were Crimea on Russian TV.

    4. They then force Ukrainian military leaders to quit and install new Pro-Russian leaders that switch sides (how convenient)

    5. Then they stir unrest until the Ukrainian government farts, and he has his justification for war.

    6. Then invade

    7. Blood Bath.


    As per the article I have just pointed out. He is arming Syria from Sevastopol. that's why he is doing this! It's got nothing to do with protecting Russian's they will be fair game to Putin. They will be slaughtered if they get in the way no matter what language they speak.

    I am warning everyone, he is the greatest danger to peace in Europe and the world since Hitler.

    http://www.forbes.com/sites/gregsate...n-into-crimea/
    Perhaps so. But the point is, there's more than one view on this. As the Spanish government about Gibraltar and you'll get a different view from the UK government. Ask Argentina about the Falklands/Malvinas and you'll get a different view from that of the UK. Ask the Spanish government about the Basque country, or Catalonia, and you'll get a very different view from separatists as independence-seekers in either. And you'll get different views on Northern Ireland, depending on who you ask, and we're just about to hold a referendum over Scotland.

    Put any reasonably large group of people together and you won't get agreement on what toppings to put on a pizza, let alone who owns what territory, or who the government should be.

    And we won't even get into India and Pakistan over Kashmir, let alone the seething cauldron of Israel/Palestine.

    And, from the Russian/Putin view, Crimea is properly part of Russia, with a large Russian population, and the elected President has been ousted by mob rule.

    I'm not saying I agree with that, and certainly not approving of Russian troops taking over. BUT .... there is more than one viewpoint.

    The danger is that Western powers see this entirely as naked aggression, but that Putin/Russia see it as protecting their own .... much like the UK did when we went to war with Argentina over the Falklands.

    My concern is, frankly, not whether Russia/Putin are bullying aggressors or a protection force for their people, but that we are where we are, and the issue now is how to handle it. How best to deal with this without getting loads of people, whoever they support, killed.

    One way is the chest-banging, tub-thumping way of calling Putin names, and issuing all sorts of threats. Do you really think he's going to cover in fear at vague threats from Kerry? Or is he going to dig his heels in? Or go further?

    Do you really think the US is going to put everything on the line, either militarily or even economically with Russia over Ukraine? Bear in mind, Obama's infamous "pivot". Obama is FAR more concerned with the Pacific than Europe. So, he'll make a few noises, maybe make a few gestures, but if push comes to shove, is he going to war? Well, time may prove me wrong, but I'd say, hell, no.

    Moreover, after his red lines were ignored by Assad in Syria, Putin pretty much knows Obama is all hot air.

    To my mind, a better way forward might just be to try to actually listen to Putin, hear what Russia is saying and try to see it as he sees it. Then, and probably only then, are diplomats going to stand any chance of finding a solution that reverses Russian occupation, in a way both sides will accept. But frankly, it's a long shot at this point.

    Putin has tossed the dice, and my reading of the guy is that he's not about to fold at a bit of bluster from either the EU or US. He KNEW that would come. But does he care? I doubt it.

    So, unless the West, US, etc are prepared for what could be an extremely expensive and bloody showdown, and quite possibly war, the best option is to try to talk Putin out of Ukraine, not to bluster and threaten him out, because my bet is he'll entrench, or go further, if we do that.

    Putin said something recently about it being time the West "respected" Russia. By which I think he meant, LISTEN more, lecture and preach less. If we always automatically assume we're somehow morally superior and constantly chastise him over, for instance, human rights, then he's not going to take it well. Nobody likes being constantly talked down to like an ignorant, barbarian redneck, and that pretty much is how the West treats Russia.

    If we want a blood-free resolution, we need to spend more time listening, and trying to understand how it looks from Russia, post the Soviet collapse, and less time patronising and condescending to Putin.

    I don't like him, and regard him as a thug and dictator .... but he is popular in Russia, and like it or not, he's in power, seems to be FAR more securely in power than either Cameron or Obama could dream of, and again, like it or not, has boots on the ground in Crimea and both the muscle, and apparently willpower, to make it stick.

    And we have to deal with that, as the situation is, not as we wish it were.

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    Re: Ukraine, Russia and Crimea situation

    Quote Originally Posted by BobF64 View Post
    Thats because there arent any democracies, just countries with democratic elections.

    Tyranny by Majority is what countries like the UK and US actually have.
    The US is a Constitutional Republic.

    The Constitution limits what the Tyranny of the Majority can do. For example, even if the majority of the people in a town want it, the local school cannot force students to practice one religion. Nor can the majority vote for gun control, or for allowing random searches of people's homes.

    At least in theory. Of course there are votes to be won by politicians who push these limits.

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    Senior Member j1979's Avatar
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    Re: Ukraine, Russia and Crimea situation

    There needs to be a multilateral threat for a declaration of war on Russia.

    here's why

    Ukraine agreed to give up it's nuclear deterrent in exchange for the agreement that it's boarders would be maintained. This was singed by UK, USA and Russia, in 1994 as part of the Budapest memorandum.

    Now what that all 3 counties have broken this agreement, they have no validity in asking other states to give up their nuclear weapons or stop perusing a nuclear program.

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    Re: Ukraine, Russia and Crimea situation

    Quote Originally Posted by Saracen View Post

    And, from the Russian/Putin view, Crimea is properly part of Russia, with a large Russian population, and the elected President has been ousted by mob rule.

    Mob rule? It was not mob rule it was Russian special forces.

    And do you really think they are there to protect the citizens? They are surrounding military installations, infrastructure installations, media buildings. they are building a bridge as we speak in Kerch and have a full invasion force ready.

    They don't give a **** about the people! Besides which only just over half are ethnic Russians. All the news is coming out of Simferopol and Sevastopol, not the rest of Crimea.

    They are there to protect military assets so that they can keep supplying Assad in Syria. The "people" are just his BS justification.
    Last edited by j1979; 03-03-2014 at 03:06 PM.

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    Re: Ukraine, Russia and Crimea situation

    Moscow are now saying that economic and political maneuvering by the west is unacceptable. They are isolating themselves with just China showing some support.

    So the people like the animus who have Russian sympathies, what would be your stance if Russia move to other areas outside of Crimea?

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    Re: Ukraine, Russia and Crimea situation

    Quote Originally Posted by j1979 View Post
    Moscow are now saying that economic and political maneuvering by the west is unacceptable. They are isolating themselves with just China showing some support.

    So the people like the animus who have Russian sympathies, what would be your stance if Russia move to other areas outside of Crimea?
    But, as it stands, they are not doing that yet. And if they do, they will find any areas that are not predominately Pro-Russian hard to control. Crimera is completely different to say West Ukraine. And, whilst I don’t want to speak for TheAnimus (God Forbid!), I see nothing in his posts that would suggest he a Russian sympathiser. What I think he was trying to demonstrate was that there are 2 sides of the debate and both of them can be argued reasonably that they have a certain degree of merit in some way or another. That’s entirely different from him saying Putin and/or Russia are right.

    Let’s be pragmatic here, Crimera, or at least a substantial part of Crimera, will not be part of the Ukraine much longer one way or the other, IMO. Part of any peace deal, with or without war, will need to include part or all of Crimera to be ceded, to Russia or as an Independent state that will in all probability, align itself with Moscow. It’s inconceivable that Russia would be doing what they are doing in Crimera without substantial support from the people there.

    On one hand you are being highly critical of the Russians involvement, but on the other seem to support the toppling of, in the eyes of most neutral observers at least, a fairly elected Government in Ukraine, simply because they aligned themselves with a state you don’t like. You want the west, who love preaching to everyone else about democracy, rule of law and ‘International Standards’, to intervene, but where was the condemnation from the West of the overthrow of a democratically elected government? It’s exactly these double standards that Russia are able to point to, and say it’s one rule for one and another for others, that gives a certain legitimacy to their actions and hostility to the West.

    Now before you accuse me of being Pro-Russian or Pro-Putin, let me say this. I am not. I really do wish the Ukraine Government had chosen to move closer to the EU rather than Russia (although we may have found a similar situation regarding Crimera). In fact, I wish that there had been an different outcome in the 2010 Elections. I deplore Putin, and how he governs, but he does have sizable support from Russians, and those who identify themselves as Russians outside of Russia. Any declaration of war on Russia would simply force Putin’s hand which would be good for no one. I firmly believe that this can, with Crimera being ceded, be resolved peacefully.

    All that said, I sincerely do hope that your friends and family are safe.

  16. #95
    Senior Member j1979's Avatar
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    Re: Ukraine, Russia and Crimea situation

    Quote Originally Posted by opel80uk View Post
    But, as it stands, they are not doing that yet. And if they do, they will find any areas that are not predominately Pro-Russian hard to control. Crimera is completely different to say West Ukraine. And, whilst I don’t want to speak for TheAnimus (God Forbid!), I see nothing in his posts that would suggest he a Russian sympathiser. What I think he was trying to demonstrate was that there are 2 sides of the debate and both of them can be argued reasonably that they have a certain degree of merit in some way or another. That’s entirely different from him saying Putin and/or Russia are right.

    Let’s be pragmatic here, Crimera, or at least a substantial part of Crimera, will not be part of the Ukraine much longer one way or the other, IMO. Part of any peace deal, with or without war, will need to include part or all of Crimera to be ceded, to Russia or as an Independent state that will in all probability, align itself with Moscow. It’s inconceivable that Russia would be doing what they are doing in Crimera without substantial support from the people there.

    On one hand you are being highly critical of the Russians involvement, but on the other seem to support the toppling of, in the eyes of most neutral observers at least, a fairly elected Government in Ukraine, simply because they aligned themselves with a state you don’t like. You want the west, who love preaching to everyone else about democracy, rule of law and ‘International Standards’, to intervene, but where was the condemnation from the West of the overthrow of a democratically elected government? It’s exactly these double standards that Russia are able to point to, and say it’s one rule for one and another for others, that gives a certain legitimacy to their actions and hostility to the West.

    Now before you accuse me of being Pro-Russian or Pro-Putin, let me say this. I am not. I really do wish the Ukraine Government had chosen to move closer to the EU rather than Russia (although we may have found a similar situation regarding Crimera). In fact, I wish that there had been an different outcome in the 2010 Elections. I deplore Putin, and how he governs, but he does have sizable support from Russians, and those who identify themselves as Russians outside of Russia. Any declaration of war on Russia would simply force Putin’s hand which would be good for no one. I firmly believe that this can, with Crimera being ceded, be resolved peacefully.

    All that said, I sincerely do hope that your friends and family are safe.
    What I am trying to point out are these points.

    1. Do not confuse Russian speakers with Pro-Russain supporters!

    2. Russia has on it's TV stations reports of terrorist riots in Simferopol and showing pictures from Kiev the week before.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-EhoDRsvSfU

    3. Russian speaking areas in the East are not as clear cut as Russia wants you to believe. Take Kharkiv, the rich live in the city center and the poor in the surrounding areas. The rich are Russian and the Ukrainians are generally poorer.
    http://www.rferl.org/content/ukraine.../25279292.html

    4. Russian citizens are going to Kharkiv / Donestk to cause these unrests

    5. Power changes in Crimea are not people by mob rule, this is Russian special forces.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-uNJ3HR64Eo

    6. Russia are arresting anti-war citizens in Moscow. 30,000 ruble fine or 15 days in prision if you protest.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I-R5DZyuUFk

    7. They are planning to attack no mater what.
    https://www.facebook.com/pages/Crime...75826859358461

    JUST IN ... RUSSIA WILL ATTACK UKRAINIAN SOLDIERS IN THEIR OWN BASES UNLESS THEY SURRENDER!!!

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    Senior Member j1979's Avatar
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    Re: Ukraine, Russia and Crimea situation

    Putin is Hitler and all the appeasers need to listen up!

    We need to go to war ! before it's too late

    Putin will attack now, unless Ukrainian soldiers surrender!

    Breaking News

    Russia's Black Sea Fleet has given Ukrainian forces in Crimea until 5:00 local time (03:00 GMT) on Tuesday to surrender or face an all-out assault, according to Ukrainian defence ministry sources quoted by Interfax-Ukraine news agency. "If by 5am tomorrow morning they do not surrender a real assault will begin on units and sections of the Ukrainian armed forces all over Crimea," defence ministry officials are quoted as saying. So far there is no further confirmation of the ultimatum from other sources.


    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-26413953
    Last edited by j1979; 03-03-2014 at 04:41 PM.

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