Employment - disciplinary for not meeting sales targets

[wasabi]

So. Wife is on verbal warning for not meeting sales targets. Has worked at company for 10 years. If made redundant would be due 13 months salary. So they're trying to get rid by using disciplinary.

Amount of product she has to sell has roughly halved due to massive cutbacks across company in past two years (50 percent staff made redundant last year), yet targets are 2.5 time higher than 3 years ago. Not surprisingly, targets can't be hit. Also direct line manager is also MD who has not listed to any feedback re sales targets, and who fears losing his job (American holding company).

MD brought in outside consultancy to do 2/3 of wife's job 3 months ago yet would not make her redundant - they are there to 'help' despite taking over job.

Advisors all seem to think if company think targets are doable then she is stuffed. Surely some sense
of 'reasonable' kicks in or companies can just use disciplinary to get rid of staff without paying redundancy?


I'm after real world experience here, not how things should be in fluffbag socialist utopia. Job is gone in 6 to 8 months no matter what. We need is assessment of fighting them in court as they're trying to squirm their way round employment law.

[Lucio]

You need to talk to ACAS or Citizens Advice and seek qualified legal assistance, you should also take the time to familiarise yourself with both the employee handbook and her employement contract to see whether it contains any information about either the disciplinary process, or if it specifically addresses termination of employement due to sales performance.

Even if there is a clause, you may be able to construct a legal case for constructive dismissal in the event that it does occur, but this route is likely to be costly and if the company is winding up, may also result in no payout anyway.

[Kumagoro]

Get signed up with a union as soon as possible so they will pay the legal fees. You have to have been a member for about 6 months though probably. So get in one as soon as and you might get lucky it takes them that long to getting pushed.

[wasabi]

You need to talk to ACAS

Tried them. = vague / useless.

[TheAnimus]

Get signed up with a union as soon as possible so they will pay the legal fees. You have to have been a member for about 6 months though probably. So get in one as soon as and you might get lucky it takes them that long to getting pushed.

Or you could just check your home insurance, to see if you have legal insurance cover, you may well have. Unlike unions, it isn't so nepotistic, plus it's a damned sight cheaper!

[hesham1516]

http://www.citizensadvice.org.uk/ind...-Anchor-search is a good place to start. I have not used them myself, but they have helped my mother alot in recent years. They are also free, so its worth a try.

[Moby-Dick]

Firing someone for not meeting sales targets ? happens quiet a lot. That said there is a distinct procedure they have to follow to do it. Usually a PIP ( performance improvement plan ) has to be put in place - the company has to demonstrate that it has given you the wherewithal to achieve those targets. That said I've also seen situations where someone is paid off to go quietly , quickly and "never darken our door again".

[wasabi]

Firing someone for not meeting sales targets ? happens quiet a lot. That said there is a distinct procedure they have to follow to do it. Usually a PIP ( performance improvement plan ) has to be put in place - the company has to demonstrate that it has given you the wherewithal to achieve those targets. That said I've also seen situations where someone is paid off to go quietly , quickly and "never darken our door again".

Suppose my central query is how can making target 2.5 times higher in 3 years while halving the amount of sellable product AND while making massive chages to what is seallable at all is 'reasonable'? For first 7 years targets were roughly the same (mayber 5 percent increase per annum) and generally were hit, then new boss took over.... Slashed product range, made products less attractive, increased targets. Is 'reasonable' even a qualification in the case? Job is gone, we know that, but most of the people who went last year were made redundant to got the payout. Because she is sales they're tying to play a fast one despite having been there for over 10 years.

[OilSheikh]

Personally, if I had any warning at any workplace, I would first email my HR asking for a reference letter, get it and then just grab my coat and walk out immediately and not even give a resignation letter.

[Moby-Dick]

It depends on where the company is in its growth - for an expanding company 50% year on year target growth isn't unreasonable. I'd kill for a 5% target increase
What additional tools have they been given to achieve those targets ( headcounts / leads etc. ) - is that target a personal one or a team one?


Leaving a job without handing resignation - not a smart idea if you actually want to get paid your commission.

[Jasp]

What established procedures do they have in place regarding not hitting sales targets? normally their is a verbal warning, written followed by a disciplinary, the company also has to show they are giving your wife the tools to achieve the targets that have been set including a course of retraining, if at any point you show improvement the whole thing starts from scratch

[TheAnimus]

I think if you are doing it as redundancy you don't need to do that, you can put them 'at risk' score them on a matrix of some kind against their peers, find their performance is lower, and then get rid of them. If their job has been replaced by an external company, it could make it easier for the firm.

[wasabi]

Currently verbal warning - in 3 months will be first written one. Already they've broken procedure by giving a fixed target as part of verbal warning. The targets are simply unhittable. UK HR department was fired last year so no luck there.

What tools have they given? Apart from outside agancy taking 2/3 of job away and taking a 20 percent cut of all sales for the privilege? She previously asked at last PDP for training in sales and was told she doesn't need it.

The company is clearly in financial trouble. Not investing in new products so nothing to sell - staff halved so less output. Quality of goods dropping so less attractive. Change of direction means moving into new markets but no allowance made for transition. No listening to feedback on kinds of products needed to sell.

7 years of good PDPs. Then 3 years of bad ones under new boss based purely on spiralling unrealistic sales targets during period of contraction and on nothing else. How can this be a disciplinary?

[csgohan4]

This why I hate the private sector, numbers before employees, While I do understand they have books to balance, getting rid of experiance employees for cheaper and less experianced ones who may not be so efficient is counter productive in the long term. It's a short term gain for them.

[opel80uk]

The first thing you need to do is find out whether your Wife’s contract specifically mentions sales targets. If it doesn’t, and your Wife is a permanent employee, then the company will have a hard job getting rid of her on that basis with your Wife having no recourse. If it does mention targets, it’s more complicated, but it still doesn’t mean that the company can do what they like simply because she has not met the targets.

They can start disciplinary procedures against her, but there is strict employment law around this, and your wife is protected by law, to a certain degree. Presumably, the companies discipline procedures will consist of the usual 3 or 4 steps (Verbal warning, formal written warning, final written warning, termination), or something similar, which would comply with employment law and codes of conduct.
At the first (and each) disciplinary stage, there a few things your Wife can do to help her case . Firstly, she should take either a Union Official along or a trusted work colleague. The main reason for this is it means that the company won’t be able to change or invent anything from that meeting, which could be important further down the line.

The reason of a performance related disciplinary is to demonstrate to the employee that their ‘capability’ is not such as to allow them to carry out their job. The capability part is important, because what the company is saying is that internal factors are causing your Wife to not hit her targets (behaviour, effort, interest, ability etc) and which someone can be disciplined for and, if appropriate, eventually fired, and not external factors (unreasonable targets, no market for a product anymore etc, position no longer needed, etc) which an employee is protected from being fired (but not redundant) for. It is important that from every disciplinary meeting your Wife asks for written minutes of what was discussed and what was decided. The company should also put in place a Performance Improvement Plan, or something similar. Copies of this should be kept, and your Wife should voice any objections to any of this at the meeting, with her asking for it to be noted in the minutes. This will come in handy should it go to a tribunal, because you do not want the company to be able to say ‘why didn’t you voice that at the time’.

There is nothing you can do to stop the company dismissing your wife, even if it is unfairly. But you can help your case, should you decide to appeal. TheAnimus is right, a lot of home insurance policies cover legal fees, which might be worth looking into if you don’t have, or don’t want, a Union to avail of. Otherwise you are looking at paying for your own legal advice and/or representation, which can be expensive.

[Unique]

So. Wife is on verbal warning for not meeting sales targets.

is this official warning? when was it given and how long does it remain on her file?

Has worked at company for 10 years. If made redundant would be due 13 months salary. So they're trying to get rid by using disciplinary.

what evidence do you have regarding this / what makes you think this? why would they want to do this?

Amount of product she has to sell has roughly halved due to massive cutbacks across company in past two years

amount of product? don't you mean the product range has been reduced, or is there literally less product available to sell, as in less items manufactured?

(50 percent staff made redundant last year),

so if they made half the staff redundant last year, why didn't they make your wife redundant?

yet targets are 2.5 time higher than 3 years ago. Not surprisingly, targets can't be hit.

why can't the targets be hit?

Also direct line manager is also MD who has not listed to any feedback re sales targets, and who fears losing his job (American holding company).

how do you know this? what evidence do you have?

MD brought in outside consultancy to do 2/3 of wife's job 3 months ago yet would not make her redundant - they are there to 'help' despite taking over job.

so does this mean she has 2/3 less duties to perform, but she's still employed full time, so has 1/3rd of the work and all of the time, so more time available to reach targets?

Advisors all seem to think if company think targets are doable then she is stuffed.

which advisors? do you mean the consultants - if so, have they actually told her this, or what has she been actually told?

Surely some sense
of 'reasonable' kicks in or companies can just use disciplinary to get rid of staff without paying redundancy?

the reasonable element should be considered during the disciplinary hearing. if a company uses a disciplinary process to terminate employment, and the employee believes it's unfair and they have sufficient length of service they can bring a tribunal case. and if the tribunal believes the employer didn't act reasonably in regards to the disciplinary process, they can award against the employer

a number of things come into play, include length of service. to dismiss someone via the disciplinary process for not reaching targets after they have been employed for 10 years (is it the same or similar target related posts through the 10 years or at least for a fair period, or is this a relatively new process to her employment?) would usually mean the disciplinary process would have to stand up to a fair amount of reasonableness. for a start, is it reasonable to dismiss someone after 10 years for simply not reaching targets? how many years has the target process been in place, and has she been reaching them or not. if she has then why not give her more chance in future, if not then why wasn't the disciplinary process used before, or at least something done about it

from the negative picture you paint, it sounds like they are simply going through the motions to follow the process to terminate her employment, in which case it would end up as a tribunal case. however the answers to the other questions I've asked may help shed some light. I'd also suggest not giving up on acas, and trying them again. you will get another person on they phone who may be more helpful

I'm after real world experience here, not how things should be in fluffbag socialist utopia. Job is gone in 6 to 8 months no matter what.

what makes you say this? what evidence do you have?

We need is assessment of fighting them in court as they're trying to squirm their way round employment law.

as mentioned before, I suggest you continue speaking to acas for as much info as you can, unless you want to keep forking out for legal fees, as acas will be involved in an employment tribunal

Suppose my central query is how can making target 2.5 times higher in 3 years while halving the amount of sellable product AND while making massive chages to what is seallable at all is 'reasonable'?

if that's your main point, I'd suggest to not worry to much about it. as that being reasonable or not isn't so important, as is the reasonableness of how any disciplinary is handled

For first 7 years targets were roughly the same (mayber 5 percent increase per annum) and generally were hit, then new boss took over.... Slashed product range, made products less attractive, increased targets. Is 'reasonable' even a qualification in the case?

yes, but in regards to how her employment / dismissal is handled

Job is gone, we know that, but most of the people who went last year were made redundant to got the payout. Because she is sales they're tying to play a fast one despite having been there for over 10 years.

but how do you know that? what evidence do you have? do you have any ideas why they didn't make your wife redundant with the rest of the staff or why they won't do it now? I presume they must have paid off considerable sums to make half the staff redundant, and have sufficient money to afford such a thing. so why do this with your wife? is anyone else in the same boat?

maybe you are worrying about a situation that may not occur

Currently verbal warning - in 3 months will be first written one.

how do you know that? what makes you think this? even if the target isn't achieved it doesn't automatically mean they will continue with the disciplinary process

Already they've broken procedure by giving a fixed target as part of verbal warning.

what procedure, and broken in what way? I can't imagine a procedure regarding sales targets not being allowed to be set in a disciplinary hearing so an explanation would help

The targets are simply unhittable.

how do you know this? isn't there something that can be done to achieve them? marketing, price changes, or something else?

UK HR department was fired last year so no luck there.

who looks after the HR for UK based staff then?

What tools have they given? Apart from outside agancy taking 2/3 of job away and taking a 20 percent cut of all sales for the privilege? She previously asked at last PDP for training in sales and was told she doesn't need it.

if she asks for training for her job and fails the tasks the training could have helped in, then these are valid points to raise in a future disciplinary. she asked for help and it was refused. it works in her favour. if she had received the training however, do you think the targets would have been reached?

The company is clearly in financial trouble.

have you seen the companies accounts?

Not investing in new products so nothing to sell - staff halved so less output.

does this mean less items are being manufactured, so less goods to ship?

Quality of goods dropping so less attractive.

what about the price of goods? you don't mention what type of goods it is, but sometimes a change of market with relevant change of price can be a good thing, but it can take time to get to a profitable stage

Change of direction means moving into new markets but no allowance made for transition.

if they allowed for transition, with the change could they not be successful?

No listening to feedback on kinds of products needed to sell.

7 years of good PDPs. Then 3 years of bad ones under new boss based purely on spiralling unrealistic sales targets during period of contraction and on nothing else. How can this be a disciplinary?

a tribunal will usually look at the disciplinary process and whether it was reasonable or not, taking everything into consideration, including length of service. we only have one side of the story, which is second hand as you are describing something that someone else is going through. acas should be able to help as your wife can call them and give more info than you may want to post online, and get answers straight away. until/unless her employment is terminated there isn't much she can do at the moment apart from trying to reach the targets, and explaining that she is doing everything she can to reasonably reach the targets, including putting herself forward for training