Israel/Gaza Conflict

[neonplanet40]

Am I missing something or is there no thread for this? I checked in 'Question Time' as well and nothing. Usually something big like this (Just like Russia and the Ukraine) gets loads of posts!

Either way, it would appear that Israel has hit another UN school shelter overnight:

BBC Link (Although the BBC's coverage has been quite biased towards Israel): http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-28628682

Regarding the conflict: I won't take sides but my sympathies are firmly with the people living in Gaza and not at all with the Israeli's. At the end of the day these people have been displaced from there home after Israel was handed a country due to guilt and sympathy over the Holocaust. So obviously that doesn't happen without a group popping up that will fight until they get their 'country' back. And then for Israel to consistently push those borders further out = even less sympathy from the International Community.

From what Israel has 'perpetrated' over the past 25 years or so, it is obvious that they learned nothing from the Holocaust. For a people (by this I mean Jews) to be treated in such a terrible manner by the Nazis I would have thought that Israel would try much harder with diplomacy than use force to murder a majority of civilians, It appears to me they wont be happy until there is no-one but Israelis left in the Gaza strip.

Of course I sympathize with the rocket attacks by Hamas (however this appears to be pure desperation by this organisation). The patriot missiles are usually more than enough to cope with this anyway. So resorting to a full military incursion with air attacks, navy attacks and artillery really does wash away my sympathy for them. They treats the Gazans like dirt which is what I find so hard to believe given that many Israelis still remember the Holocaust (as does the world). It seems to me that the situation here is little better. Of course, the numbers of people affected were nothing like the Holocaust but I still believe there are some parallels with discrimination etc.

I am equally outraged by the international communities silence as well as the UK's. If this was Russia attacking the Ukraine (Oh wait that already happened!) there would be outrage (which there has!). But the killing of women and children isn't such a big deal. It makes me sick to think I live in a country and international community which easily condemns attacks and deaths such as these because they are Muslim and in a country/area of little consequence. Lets be honest, that's why no-one is bothered. Hamas is a terrorist group (I am not so sure about this - one mans terrorist is another mans freedom fighter, but anyway) so the US will do little an the rest will follow the US. For anybody to speak against Israel, they are called anti-Semitic.

Overall, I try to keep a balanced viewpoint on a conflict such as this but I find it very hard due to the hypocritical nature of the international community. It helps me realise that despite massive world wars and international/local/domestic conflicts, the governments (and the people as they vote them in) of this world have learnt absolutely nothing of their past and continue to repeat it over and over again.

I really hope the conflict ends soon, however, due to the Israeli embargo where the people can't breath without Israel saying so (a bit like the Jews who were housed in specific parts of the cities with huge walls before the Nazis built the concentration camps (like I said, I see parallels which is what makes me sad) I doubt it will make a difference. Israel has annihilated pretty much every standing public building and infrastructure in Gaza that it is hard to see how they can realistically recover.

And this brings me to my final point. How exactly does Israel expect to 'rid itself' of Hamas? For every bomb they drop and family they kill, relatives join. They have absolutely nothing to live for but revenge.

This was one of my more long winded posts it seems so apologies. I try to be impartial but I do find it hard.

[BobF64]

Am I missing something or is there no thread for this? I checked in 'Question Time' as well and nothing. Usually something big like this (Just like Russia and the Ukraine) gets loads of posts!

All negative, albeit probably justified, comments about Israeli actions tend to be branded either "anti-Semitic" or are rapidly withdrawn, as keeps happening when politicians and "celebs" mention anything against Israel or for Gaza.

[Saracen]

...

Regarding the conflict: I won't take sides but my sympathies are firmly with the people living in Gaza and not at all with the Israeli's.

Erm .....

I try to be impartial but I do find it hard.

No? Surely not. I struggle to believe that, from reading that post.


I feel sorry for innocent people, wherever they are, caught in the middle of armed conflict, being it this one, or Syria, or .... well, loads of places over the years.

As for this conflict, among the combatants, and I stress combatants not civilians, I don't have much sympathy for either. A pox on both their houses.

[neonplanet40]

I did say I found it hard

I just think the whole situation is one-sided which makes an impartial opinion particularly hard.

[Saracen]

I did say I found it hard

I just think the whole situation is one-sided which makes an impartial opinion particularly hard.

The casualties are one-sided for sure.

I'm not really interested in discussing this at length, not least because it's an apparently intractable problem that I've been watching news reports about for, oh, 50 years, and not a lot has changed. And I'm not sure I see any realistic prospect of much changing in the future either.

So here's a quick view of why I find it hard to take sides.

Israel hits a UN school, or from reports I see, hits just outside one. Why? Well, I've seen a couple of reports of reporters observing Hamas launches from the immediate vicinity of such places in the past, and even the UN has reported three instances of either fire originating from close to such facilities, or weapons found stored in them.

So, who's at fault? If, for arguments sake, mortars originate from immediately outside, ballistic computers track the flight, determine the origin and return fire. I don't know about IDF capabilities but the US are certainly capable of hitting such batteries extremely fast, and pretty accurately. But no such ordance is 100% accurate.

Which begs the question .... why has Hamas fired from so close to safe havens? Why not site rocket lauchers firing against Israel outside densely populated areas, when they KNOW Israel has vounter-artillery capabilities, not to mention drones and fighter aircraft? Could it be that they want international sympathy and pressure from the resulting casualties?

Hamas wants the blockade lifted. Yet, when supplies of concrete products were supplied, they were used to help build those tunnels. And given the naval blockade, and deteriorated relations with Egypt now the Muslim Brotherhood is out of power, and getting supplies across that border is FAR harder, the odds are the first thing they'll do with a lowered blockade is seek re re-arm militarily.

It takes two sides to productively talk, and I can't see any signs, over years and years, that Hamas has any interest in any peace with Israel. They just want it destroyed, like their charter says.

Like I say, my view on the combatants is, a pox on both their houses. Why? Because Israel is causing disproportionate civilian casualties, and Hamas is deliberately and cynically provoking it, for publicity and sympathy.

[scicrazy]

The UK is somewhat responsible for the political geography in the region. Just as it took Israel to mention NATO, and others', past history of bombing civilians for whatever excuse, no one on that side wants to open old wounds. Still doesn't excuse the attacking of UN facilities that couldn't possibly be Hamas locations. Nor Hamas for rocket attacks.

tl;dr Everyone's got things they regret doing in hindsight, but until someone actually tries, and keeps going with it, to do things right/different despite past events, history will repeat.

[Infinite]

Israel hits a UN school, or from reports I see, hits just outside one. Why? Well, I've seen a couple of reports of reporters observing Hamas launches from the immediate vicinity of such places in the past, and even the UN has reported three instances of either fire originating from close to such facilities, or weapons found stored in them.

This.

Gaza crisis: Deadly strike 'at UN school in Rafah' BBC

Then you read the first line and says

"At least 10 people have been killed in a strike near a UN-run school housing Palestinians displaced by the Gaza conflict, medics say."

Stirring much?

[neonplanet40]

The death of over 1700 civilians is hardly stirring. Also, looking at the pictures from other news outlets it appears that NEAR is actually at the entrance where people were possibly queuing for food.

[wasabi]

Erm .....

No? Surely not. I struggle to believe that, from reading that post.


I feel sorry for innocent people, wherever they are, caught in the middle of armed conflict, being it this one, or Syria, or .... well, loads of places over the years.

As for this conflict, among the combatants, and I stress combatants not civilians, I don't have much sympathy for either. A pox on both their houses.

r
Are there really that many true civilians in all this? What percentage of people living there don't really take a side? Is a teenager throwing rocks at Israeli patrols a combatant or not? What about those building tunnels? Or young Israelis doing national service? Or the relatives of those who go out making attacks who socially approve of the actions? Or those who allow people to fire RPGs from their bedroom window? Or those moving into heavily defended houses right on the borders?

The concept of civilian / combatant is also conceptually ant-Israeli in this case. They have an army and national service, their opponents don't. I doubt you really believe that the young (male?) citizens of Gaza should form an army and march out to war? i.e. it subverts the discussion by claiming the Israeli army kills civilians.

[OilSheikh]

Well, no one on the forum is from Palestine, so nothing has been said. On the Ukraine thread, we had someone from Ukraine or someone who thinks he is Ukrainian as his wife is from Ukraine ( never understood this ! ) and he kept on posting.

[Mblaster]

From what I've read, the disproportionate number of deaths between the sides is not through a lack of effort by Hamas, but largely because Israel has one of/the best missile defence systems in the world, with early warnings going out to civilians and bomb shelters provided for them to safely hide. Where as Hamas encourage the civilians to stay put during attacks.

Also, Hamas have a history of operating in civilian areas (see here). If they cared about their own civilians they wouldn't be doing that.

This is starting to look like a pro-Israel post, however I'm not fussed who wins as I don't know enough about the history to have an opinion on who is 'right', I just think that the high number of civilian deaths are as much Hamas's fault as they are Israel.

[peterb]

My sympathies lie with the ordinary Palestinian and ordinary Israeli who want to go about his lawful business in peace and quiet. Which both have done in the all too brief cease fires in the last few weeks.

But it has been HMAS who (allegedly) have broken each negotiated cease fire, usually within a few hours of it being brokered, and given that HAmAS seeks the destruction of Israel in its entirety, I have some sympathy for the Israeli Government in seeking to defend its territory.

There is question of the legitimacy of HAMAS as a representative of the Palestinian people. The Government is exercised by the Palestinian Authority, which is distinct (at least in name and function) from HAMAS.

From HAMs's point of view, any negotiation between the PA and Israel which allows the recognition and coexistence of each other (which IMHO is the only way peace can ever be brought to the region) runs counter to its charter, so any ceasefire runs counter to its aims.

[drone567]

I think it's alot more complex than anyone person can comprehend, incl me. I know the Jews origianally had a homeland in the area. I believe they were conquered and enslaved by the Egyptians. Which led to them being dispersed around the world. They were always persecuted; I beleve a king in the middle ages threw all the jews out of England, rather than repay their loans. Pogroms across Europe ,Russia, and finally the Holocaust. So it would seem sensible to give them back their homelands. Jews actually started buying scrubland from Palastinians(or Arabs) in the 1920's. It's Iran who are behind most of the hatred. I believe there should be two states declared, and that pressure should be put on other countries to accept that. Unfortunately because of all the deaths and feuding, it will require someone of Mandela's vision, and ability to forgive, to bring peace.

[TheAnimus]

What makes you English? Or Scottish? Or Yorkshirish?

We've been conquered so many times, in the last ~2000 years we've been Italian, Scandinavian, Celtic, Germanic hell even French. But we still have our identity based on our geographic location, not our racial heritage.

In nomadic cultures, the geography is odd, because whilst the land that makes up the "nation" has changed hands many times, the people who live there were not conquered and assimilated in the same way. Genetically, I'm probably more scandi than say celt, I think, light hair, tall, hmm I want to profile my DNA now..... But compare it with how certain other 'people' define their identity, religious, often with rules about marriage that prevents intermixing.

Israel was lost, conquered completely, generations ago, yet because of the nomadic culture the identity was not, the cultures were not mixed.

So when we decided to carve up the land, and give some to one group, we created a problem, but things got worse, when this new state was attacked, they countered, very successfully. Again identity as it is, both sides feel they are the right people for that space, yet equal sharing is alien to many because of the lack of identity.

This to me is the root of the issue, you've got people who feel no shared common ground, who both feel they've been robbed by the other.

I'll be honest, I do find it often harsh how Israel gets derided by many for it's lack of causalities, this is due more to their defensive investments, very impressive missile defence, warning system and large number of public bunkers. Meanwhile in Palestine things are not so rosy, the rockets are fired, weapons stock pilled in and around 'soft' targets. Just like in Vietnam, a war of attrition soon blinds both sides to fair play. The Palestinians indiscriminately kill Israelis, the Israelis indiscriminately and far more effectively kill the Palestinians. I think it's hard to ask the stronger side, to show restraint whilst rockets are fired, tunnels are dug. However I do think they have a responsibility to prevent the illegal growth of their settlements and the like however.

My solution? It involves interment for all the 'hard line' elements, so basically a light genocide. I can't see many people on both sides ever agreeing to an option that doesn't un-equivocally favour them. So what options are left?

[Saracen]

r
Are there really that many true civilians in all this? What percentage of people living there don't really take a side? ...

I take the point, but .... eldery men and women, in their 80s and 90s? Pregnant women? Three-year old kids? Etc.

But, of course, that sort of "collateral damage" is exactly the sort that has international media types wringing their hands?

Part of the reason I somewhat detach from this conflict is this.

If Hamas put on uniforms, and faced the IDF across a conventional battlefield, it'd be one of the shortest military confrontations in history. Hamas would get flattened. So they don't do that. Thy launch missiles from crowded areas, and rely on the 'win' coming from international reaction to casualties when Israel strikes back. And that is a war Israel probably can't win .... though that's not to say they'll lose.

Which gives Israel a problem. Strike back and they get castigated. Don't strike back and Hamas just continues to launch rockets, And what is it now, some 2000 since this current conflict started, and 12000 since the last Israeli offence and withdrawal?

I think I can pretty much guarantee that just about any other country would be reacting very firmly to 14000 rockets. What would the US do if 14000 rockets had been fired from Mexico, or Cuba? What would France do if the UK had fired 14000 rockets, or vice versa? We'd be at war. How would Putin react to 14, let alone 14000 tockets from Ukraine? Odds are troops would be over the border 10 minutes after they finished breakfast. What country would put up with it?

Adter decades of intense international effort, including from repeated US presidents, what actual progress has there been in getting any solution sorted? From what I can tell. Naff-all. Zip. Nowt. Not-a-bleeping-thing.

What's that definition of stupidity? Keep repeating the same actions and expecting different results?

Hamas is not going to stop firing rockets until, first, the blockade is lifted, which is a step towards their objective of the destruction of the state of Israel. And Israel is not going to lift the blockade until it sees a credible way of ensuring it's own security, which it can't do given Hamas' objective of its destruction.

We have two directly opposing and apparently intractable opponents, both of whom have non-negotiable fundamental positions, and peace cannot exist with both sets of preconditions. Since I can't see Israel ever deciding to commit national suicide, it seems to me that either Hamas is going to have give up on destroying Israel, and actually talk about some sort of two-state solution, or the killing will go on, flaring up and settling down, repeatedly, ad nauseum.

It takes both sides being prepared to deal to get any chance if peace. If it wasn't for that stunning sight of Gerry Adams and Martin McGuiness sitting down and actually working with Ian Paisley, I'd say Israel and the Palestinians have no chance at all. As it is, I'd say very little chance, and none at all unless Hamas gives up tryjng to destroy Israel and accepts there's going to have to be talk, and compromise, or the blood will continue to flow.

One thing I am absolutely sure of. Beyond expressing horror at civilian deaths, and calling for humanitarian help, there's not much we, the UK, can do. We don't exercise much influence with Israel, have none at all with Hamas, and indeed for historical reasons don't really have any grounds for even moral indignation, never mind getting involved.

[abaxas]

No point getting involved as there is no real answer.

The answer will only come when there is a victor, and they'll choose it.

(currently my money is on Israel)