LinkBack URL
About LinkBacksBolding my own. Remember, it was a British extremist who killed the US journalist. It is as much our own as someone else's problem.Originally Posted by drone567
Bolding my own. Remember, it was a British extremist who killed the US journalist. It is as much our own as someone else's problem.
I agree with kalniel that the problem is more serious than just leaving them to their own devices to sort their own problems out, this Islamic State has threatened other nations around the world (not just "the west").
Most the areas being "liberated" are mountainous, from what I have seen, and as such those communities are more vulnerable than average because by choice the people living there don't want to be a part of the larger order of the fragmented nation in which they happen to live. Over millennia people choose to live in places that best suit their desires; people moving towards, or very far up, mountains are often people that are actively trying to get away from the civilising force that creates cities and with them states to help control the larger regions (Tibet is a prime example of this). This leads to a lower ability to defend themselves against outside attack. I know I dislike the way in which governments exert control over their citizens and I also happen to like mountainous regions, both of this country and the one I come from. I'm not so sure that it is a coincidence that I feel that way on both counts; I sympathise with these communities that are getting invaded by a radical group wishing to exert control through archaic laws and then claim their interpretation of the Muslim faith to be the correct and only way it should be interpreted.
I dislike dogmatism as much as extremists hate me because I can't tolerate intolerance. Highly convoluted sentence I know but I struggle to find better words to describe my disdain for what is happening. I have a special place in my heart for this conflict because a good friend of mine from University is Kurdish and his homeland is the one being invaded at the moment. It really pisses me off that a group, any group for that matter, thinks it is acceptable to behave like this in the 21st century. It pains me to see it happening when we should be over this nonsense by now, as a species I mean. A part of me wants to see Team America style justice get served but another part knows that will only make things worse. Unfortunately I have no idea what wouldn't make things worse at this point, but I feel that letting the situation continue to unfold without doing anything is worse than trying something and getting that wrong.
I heard so called educated people bleating on about the radicalisation of UK muslim youngsters.
If I saw an unarmed man handcuffed being beheaded by a masked butcher with no sense of humanity.
Ask yourself!, would any human being be radicalised and want to do this?.
Radicalisation is an assumption that all muslim youngsters are brain dead and do not realise that to join
the butchers association like islamic state means killing for the sake of cowardly and inhuman gratification,then I believe that the religion is nothing more than an anarchist world ending and dangerous excuse for pedophilia,sadism and bloodletting.
I believe the Muslim religion is akin to any Mafia in its make up.
Uncles, cousins,and extended members of a family will conduct honour killings if the mother or father has any compunction.
The koran states that its fine to deceive your enemy (the kufaar meaning an (enemy) anyone who is not a Muslim!).
Anyone who wants to join a group who cut off the heads of children and push them onto poles for all to see deserve to
be put in a blender and not pandered to or deradicalised as some idiots put it.
Last edited by elgnid0; 24-08-2014 at 11:38 PM.
I ain't religious but they are alike to the anti Christ
JABULANI NONKE
No it was a Muslim british extremist!,Muslim being the bloodletting inhuman animal that moved here(or his/her relative to escape that which is inhuman and animalistic) only to carry on in perfect safety to change that society that they yearn for.
This is anarchy at its best and my own belief is that the Muslim religion is self destructive and deserves the recognition of the insect cockroach in its idea.
May we all see the end of cancer,hunger and the Muslim faith, (FAITH) in Brackets.
Last edited by elgnid0; 25-08-2014 at 11:40 PM. Reason: spelling
Another edit for punctuation perhaps? I somewhat agree with your sentiment, yet expressing it crudely panders to the fluffy left's 'ignore the Daily Mail reader' disparaging thread of argument.
Not sure if there are many people remaining, that are willing to argue the liberal point of view towards Islam. I think many can see that Islam is by it's very nature a religion that breeds a supremacist mind set. The wording of the Qu'ran is very deliberate in it's (them and us) approach, more so than the other Semitic religions of born in the middle east. That's not something most true left wing liberals should be arguing for in my opinion.
To go slightly off topic, sorry, but i feel it's relevant. Sunni Muslim extremists from Chechnya / Russia are no longer denying their involvement in Donetsk and Lugansk in Ukraine.
And someone has released the video claiming the "Islamic State of Donbass and Lugansk"
What is slightly more worrying than the Chechen fighters is that at least one of the fighters fighting in Ukraine is from Afghanistan. And the aid convoy from Russia actually carried back hundreds of bodies back to Chechnya / Russia. Not sure what percentage are Muslim fighting in Ukraine against the Ukrainian government, but they are using "the fight against the west" as a large recruitment drive for jihadists.
This is not a local Iraqi problem, this is a global problem. The west needs to pull it's finger out, and Obama, Cameron, Merkel, Hollande & other western world leaders need to wake up fast.
I'm not so sure the leaders need to wake up, they've been using extremism as an excuse to control oil reserves for decades now. They are well aware of the situation but I think they are wary of the public backlash of launching another war, even if the threat to humanity of not doing so is well documented. The public, me included, do not want to see the situation addressed by declaring war and obliterating the problem as has been done in the past. Perhaps that isn't true, it could also be that the economic situation doesn't allow for increased spending on war when we are crippling existing services at home. Either way it is unlikely that the UN or any member nations will make a big decision to take decisive action against the problem and I don't think that is a bad thing to be honest. The problem is varied and difficult to understand so running in guns blazing to destroy the problem is unlikely to solve it, it could easily make things much worse.
On the topic of the religion being used as justification for this terrible situation, it is likely to cause more people to be discouraged from being part of a religion than it is to give the religion strength. The people being displaced is far greater than the people joining the IS to fight against, what ever they have decided to fight against really. What will be interesting to see around the world is what other Muslims start doing in response to this. The largest Muslim population within a country has decided to defend non-muslim structures within it because they value human history which was nice to read about.
I can understand why Muslims are more likely to become extremists because their religion wants you to identify with the religion before your obvious membership of the human race. Your identity within the religion, at least from what I have read, is to first be a Muslim and second be a human being which is backwards to me and can cause serious issues in thinking when impressionable people take that view. The disconnect between what these extremists believe and what reality dictates is most concerning to me. Your identity should be, first and foremost, that you are a member of the human race which might not be that appealing considering the destruction we cause everywhere we go. To treat other humans as if they are less than human, less than an animal even, is to remove yourself from the same category as them which is a very devastating state of mind to be in as we are witnessing. Having said that my upbringing might not of been as dictatorial as what I have described but Christianity doesn't stop you from viewing it as your first and most important identity. I actively rejected it because of the lack of answers it gave but if you already take the view of your identity being "Christian" or "Muslim" or any other religion as something you are before a human then it can be very difficult to disagree with the view put forward by religious teachers with regards to other humans being unworthy of living. It is hard to tolerate other people's point of view when you feel superior to them and don't see them as equals to yourself.
I actively dislike people that take the view that they are above other humans because they hold a different point of view which they feel is superior. It seems that this war is not a war of humans but one of thought. The winning of the war will be the changing of minds, showing others that behaving in an aggressive manner to other humans is not acceptable. It is unfortunate that countries still have religious identities which will make this a much more dangerous battle because of the difference in ideology. Due to this distinction, that I feel is accurate, I would like to see a more measured approach to this problem than what governments have done in the past. The economic situation might encourage that for other reasons but hopefully it shows that other options can be helpful.
Disagree. One of the biggest problems we have is not enough liberalism. The subject can't be robustly discussed in public in case you get hung out to dry for hate speech.
Personally, I think we either need to commit to crushing them or stay the heck out - the usual proportionate dabbling would only make things worse.
Last edited by wasabi; 26-08-2014 at 12:40 PM.
Completely unrelated ... Emirati fighters used Egyptian air bases to attack rebels in Libya. Certainly didn't see that coming. A lot of Emirates and Etihad aircrafts must have been hit recently by the rebels.
And, US is sad that no one told them. ROFL
US is more upset that they USA supplied equipment in the attack...
IMO the situation is boiling over - yes use extremnism for going after resources , but they tried that once - and once the `allies` pulled out of Iraq , it left this vacuum
maybe Assad should have just gassed ISIS anyway
I'm not sure who they would declare war against. As for the west controlling oil, well yes, it's the main strategic resource used to wage war. But there have been plenty of operations made in countries that have little oil but do have extremists, so oil is a main factor in western intervention, but the deciding factor is extremism. Hitler knew it, as did Churchill and Roosevelt, remove access to oil and a mechanized army can't make offensive moves, not only that but an unmovable army is much easier to destroy.
So from my point of view extremism is not an excuse to control oil but more a necessity.
Where are you getting the stats for the numbers joining IS vs the displaced? I'm pretty sure IS are not doing a census, and if they were I doubt we would have access. So although you may be right and I really hope you are, Im not sure if we know this for sure.
I have no doubt there is a mass of decent people within both Iraq and Syria, that will fight to protect their own and other groups from this evil. Yet maybe you have underestimated the IS threat, lets take the most liberal of Sunni Muslim countries in the world (Turkey). Although they do not support ISIS, they are not currently willing to help stop them. In fact they were one of the countries that initially supported them, after all they are Sunnis and they are fighting Assad. How much of the support is due to them fighting Assad and how much due to them being Sunnis is the main question there.
We have not taken a poll in the UK on IS support, and I doubt people would be honest about their true feelings, but visit a Muslim forum and the same theme resonates. The vast majority seem to support ISIS aims but some are dubious of their tactics.
I highlighted that sentence, because it's best descries my views too. I believe all people are equal, no one is better than anyone else, but if any person or group of people think they are superior and somehow special, then they become a focus for my opposition.
I believe there is no way of reaching these people, you can't reach out to them because to them you are a lesser person. You are not a Muslim and they don't want to listen to a second class citizen. The Nobel Qu'ran could well be the most popular version of the Qu'ran in the UK and the EU, it's also the most hateful.
The west can't just undo 100's of years of what is essentially the nurturing of extreme religious nationalism. Even if the current wave of this Wahhabi funded jihad is combated, the resting point of Islam over other religions is still one of, superiority in most Muslims minds in my opinion.
Liberalism where? Within Islam or within western society.
I agree with the problem of discussing it being a major problem. If we decide not to crush them, which seems to be the Obama policy, then what next?
Like you pointed out proportionate dabbling make things worse, yet Obama seems to fight a war like a taking a course of antibiotics without finishing the bottle. He takes a few pills till the symptoms start to disappear then decides he's cured. If you don't take a full course of antibiotics, the bacteria grow and the ones that are left have become much stronger.
Well, I do not know what is considered a "liberal view", and you are kind of right that I do feel like (nor have the time to) argue my points on Islam. We've had this discussion years ago, we had opposing views ago, and the IS hasn't changed my view. I am obviously against what the IS is doing, but I still do not believe their behaviour is representative of the Muslim around the world. Lots more I could say but it would probably be recycling things we have already expressed in the past.
No stats for numbers joining or leaving IS, it was a hunch I feel is correct on small and large scale within our culture which was directly applied to this situation. I agree with you, j1979. The fact that people are hesitant to support the tactics is what I am using for my inference. People are starting to notice that despite the goals being admirable the actions taken to achieve them are not and as such should not be supported. I don't think people accept that the end justifies the means anymore, at least not generally. We are slowly coming to the realisation that using means unjustifiable by themselves is not acceptable. This ties in with the last part of both our comments, people are beginning to view actions or behaviour that is aggressive as treating people as something other than people. Slowly but surely we are waking up to the fact that we are the same species and should be treated equal to each other, treating some people as more equal than others is not acceptable anymore. As this happens more and more our identity slowly moves towards that of being human first and what ever religious group chosen second. Acting like the worlds police force by going in a getting rid of the problem only serves to breed more hatred towards us because we are then treating them as if they are less than human as well, it is a vicious circle.
As members of the group "the west" we have a seriously damaged image in that region because of our constant meddling in their affairs. Therefore I feel the way in which we meddle with their affairs this time will make a significant difference to whether the next group that gets into power blames us for their problems or not. The history of conflict in the region is long and complicated, which was linked to previously with the 27 maps of the region, and treating the problem as something simple with us going in to fix it will only make their claims of "the west" making things worse stronger. Fighting them will make things worse for the region, no matter how we do it. Leaving the situation to develop on its own is also bad for the region so I wouldn't advocate for that to be done either. I would be very happy to spend money and resources to help communities evacuate from the conflict that don't want to be a part of the Islamic State and set up some defenses for them to maintain their own little territories independant of the IS.
I think taking the approach of helping those that want the help and not directly engaging the IS gives people of the region a much better impression of our intentions and shows that despite disagreeing with what is happening we aren't the police force of the world. We are happy to help but it is the choice of the locals as to whether they want/need the help and their desires should be what encourages and motivates our actions, not getting rid of the problem.
A Question - why are we not seeing an ultra right wing Christian `army` rising in response to this?
There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)
Posting Permissions
Reply With Quote