The Iraqi Nightmare

[Galant]

Level 3 Emergency declared by UN

1.2 million internally displaced
Genocidal attacks on Yazidis - many apparently murdered, raped, many more fleeing and many of those dying of thirst/exposure, including children. Humanitarian help being begged. Other minorities have already fled/are fleeing.
Elimination/exile of Christians - Mohammed-era tax being levied as in Syria, Christian homes and businesses being marked, 'Convert, leave or die'. Reports of beheadings, crucifixions, and even worse. Mosul is without Christians for the first time in two-thousand years.

The USA, via air-strikes and action by Special Forces are reporting they have broken the siege on Mount Sinjar where many Yazidis had fled.
The UK have apparently sent in the SAS in order to scout before an evacuation attempt.

The plain goal of ISIS (now IS, apparently) is the formation of a hard-line Islamic State, essentially a new Islamic nation-state under Sharia law.

A former Australian army officer warned about a 100-year war against radical Islam - "Former Army chief Peter Leahy warned last weekend that the war against Islamic terrorism could last 100 years. And on Monday he said any doubts he might have had were removed by the image of the seven-year-old Australian holding up the severed head: “That child could live to be 70, and that is most of the rest of this century.”"

[wasabi]

Religion. A force for good.

[kalniel]

Religion. A force for good.

Generalisation. A way to enlightenment.

[Galant]

Religion. A force for good.

Might I request that we focus on this specific situation rather than religion in general, please?

[wasabi]

Might I request that we focus on this specific situation rather than religion in general, please?

Other minorities have already fled/are fleeing.
Elimination/exile of Christians - Mohammed-era tax being levied as in Syria, Christian homes and businesses being marked, 'Convert, leave or die'. Reports of beheadings, crucifixions, and even worse. Mosul is without Christians for the first time in two-thousand years.




The plain goal of ISIS (now IS, apparently) is the formation of a hard-line Islamic State, essentially a new Islamic nation-state under Shia law.

A former Australian army officer warned about a 100-year war against radical Islam - [URL="http://www.theaustralian.com.au/news/features/the-rise-and-rise-ofnbspradical-islam/story-e6frg6z6-1227023581640"]"Former Army chief Peter Leahy warned last weekend that the war against Islamic terrorism could last 100 years.

Why? Elephant in the room. If i mention one particular relgiion I'll get in trouble for being .....phobic.

[Galant]

Why? Elephant in the room. If i mention one particular relgiion I'll get in trouble for being .....phobic.

Not as far as I'm concerned. Addressing the specific causes/nature/solutions for this problem would be entirely on topic and necessary - what good would it do to discuss things only in the most general terms? Point and counter-point can be productive, but massive generalisations generally aren't.

[aramil]

Addressing the specific causes/nature/solutions for this problem would be entirely on topic and necessary

We (the west) will not go in with any sort of final plan, that would solve and put an actual end to this. And as the surrounding states seem to want to let this play out, what choice is there?

Remove everyone who wants to leave and then leave them to it. Hoping they will at some point want to come to the table of nations, and not try to kill us all. (if they don't all kill themselves in the process) *a lot of people will die.

Or

Kill every single ISIS member and anyone who would join/strongly sympathise(and would do something about it) with them wherever they are. (as you would not want to just move the problem elsewhere) * a lot of people will die.

There is a lot of "we must do something" but not a lot of actual substance / solutions.

In the end we are either at war or not and should treat it as such (as we used to),meaning you have to accept people will die In a war. There is no cosy middle ground.

Or everyone in that area sits down, and it is talked out to an acceptable resolution for all......

Really don't think there will be a solution any time soon.

[TheAnimus]

Not as far as I'm concerned. Addressing the specific causes/nature/solutions for this problem would be entirely on topic and necessary - what good would it do to discuss things only in the most general terms? Point and counter-point can be productive, but massive generalisations generally aren't.

What do you think the underlying reasons are?

Myself I think it's their identity, which is part of the religious make up, which also really helpfully, people often get their morals from.

I'd say that this would not be happening in this shape or form were it not for the religious drivers behind it.

[kalniel]

I'd say that this would not be happening in this shape or form were it not for the religious drivers behind it.

But instead just in another form like militia or sectarianism, tribalism or so on.

As for solutions, it's the usual - education & reduction of poverty, disease etc.

[j1979]

[
The plain goal of ISIS (now IS, apparently) is the formation of a hard-line Islamic State, essentially a new Islamic nation-state under Shia law.

I think that's an unfortunate typo, an easy mistake to make though. Extreme hard line Sharia law is the aim. As they hate the shia's and being Shia Muslim / Christian or other sect in northern Iraq is akin to being Jewish in Nazi Germany right now.


ISIS is funded predominantly by European and Saudi Sunni Muslims that are part of, or sympathetic to the Saudi Wahhabi movement.

Why? Elephant in the room. If i mention one particular relgiion I'll get in trouble for being .....phobic.

It's not a Phobia when they are beheading pretty much everyone they find, not just opponents, but women, children, the elderly. I have seen some truly horrific videos. I won't post links as I don't want anyone to witness them. A Phobia is an irrational fear, someone scared of tigers would not be called Ailurophobic in my opinion.

I'm not scared of Muslims, but I am of Jihaddists, the problem is I can't tell the difference until I get to know that person.

The Shia Islam of Iran looks very modern and progressive in comparison to this religious nihilism that is Wahhabism. Remember that 95% of the Muslims in Britain are Sunni too, and some of them support ISIS, so tend to have blinkers on when seeing the vision of the middle east. General feeling amongst Sunnis is that they are happy for the west to take out Assad, yet not happy for them to fight the Taliban.

To generalize would be to say..."Muslims of the UK oppose western intervention while Sunnis are running the show." Yet it does seem that black and white to me. There are a lot of ISIS supporters in the UK imho, and it's all about being Sunni.


Some interesting reads...
http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/...y-9602312.html

http://english.alarabiya.net/en/view...Hezbollah.html

Yahoo top answer. "shia's are not Muslims" this is what worries me.
https://uk.answers.yahoo.com/questio...5165948AA4XKpm

[Galant]

I think that's an unfortunate typo

Good catch. Thanks. Corrected.

[Galant]

What do you think the underlying reasons are?

Myself I think it's their identity, which is part of the religious make up, which also really helpfully, people often get their morals from.

I'd say that this would not be happening in this shape or form were it not for the religious drivers behind it.

Putting it too simply, specific middle-eastern cultural background/tribalism and specific Islamic belief. (As opposed to the general notion of being religious).

I'd agree that this specific issues wouldn't exist except for the specific religious drivers behind it. If you're trying to say that being religious always leads to this sort of nightmare then I'd say you're wrong. However, as I said, I don't want to get sidetracked onto the 'religion in general is bad' debate. You're free to believe that but I see that as a separate issue and would rather focus my energies on this specific situation.

[Smudger]

If you're fair, they're only following what their book tells them, which is kill or convert the unbeliever. Much the same as the Bible, Torah, etc.

[kalniel]

If you're fair, they're only following what their book tells them, which is kill or convert the unbeliever. Much the same as the Bible, Torah, etc.

It's not what the book is telling them, or we'd have all Muslims killing people, and according to you, all Christians and Jews doing the same. So somewhere in the line there is a disagreement in what you think the books say, and what the people who actually study/read the books think they say, suggesting that we're the ones in need of education as much as the extremists.

[Galant]

If you're fair, they're only following what their book tells them, which is kill or convert the unbeliever. Much the same as the Bible, Torah, etc.

I didn't say they weren't - although some would dispute that.
I don't think that's only what they're doing. I think there's more tied up in it, but it's certainly a big part of it.

The question is how do we deal with this? What should the world do in the face of something which seeks not only to eliminate these various people in their region but which desires to continue such a march onward?

What about the refugees? There are calls for the UK to provide asylum for displaced Christians and others fleeing for their lives.

What 'started' in Syria (not really, but you know) has now moved into Iraq.

How involved should the world be in stopping this - and how?

[Smudger]

It's not what the book is telling them, or we'd have all Muslims killing people, and according to you, all Christians and Jews doing the same. So somewhere in the line there is a disagreement in what you think the books say, and what the people who actually study/read the books think they say, suggesting that we're the ones in need of education as much as the extremists.

Deutoronomy 17 would appear to disagree. And Surah 9:5 in the Quran