1600 W maximum on vacuum cleaners from from Sept!

[Noxvayl]

The spanish drink coffee though, I have seen it first hand. There must be a better way that they have found that we don't know about...

[peterb]

I'd not thought of that Pete...you're right. In fact... Now I think about it....I've been in Spain and seen no kettle in some places!

The spanish drink coffee though, I have seen it first hand. There must be a better way that they have found that we don't know about...

Yes, but coffee doesn't require water to be boiling. I did propose a theory that kettle power was one of the reasons hot tea (as opposed to that abomination, ready mixed iced 'tea') isn't widely drunk in America.

http://forums.hexus.net/pc-hardware-...drink-tea.html

[SeriousSam]

Interestingly the Irish now drink more tea per head than us Brits, around 2Kg per head annually, with only the Saudi's consuming more. Oh and the main reason tea in the US tastes terrible is that a lot of it comes from Argentina and is processed in a different way to Africa / India. Plus the variety of "clones" used are more suited to making Iced Tea.

As for temperature then as posted tea requires as close to boiling water as you can manage, whereas coffee realistically just needs it to be over 90C in the case of instant and 95C for ground etc.

Still the most important factor is your choice of biscuit, as there are "rules" for what goes with what as well e.g. ginger biscuits with Kenyan Tea...

[Noxvayl]

That would have been a nice thread to post in peterb; I have a high voltage electrical engineer as an uncle so I was the kid who asked awkward questions during science class about why we weren't learning that electricity flows through the surface of a material, not the centre. The larger the surface area the better the conduction, and the better the conductor the less heat is wasted during conduction. Very interesting to me and I badger my uncle about the details of these things on a semi-regular basis. My uncles information about electricity is part of the reason I have used Gigabyte boards for so long, because they introduced the thicker copper layer on their boards which they theorised helped with heat; it was making things much easier for the electricity on the board which was why the heat was reduced; they probably knew that already but I liked the idea.

Back to tea though... I don't drink much tea, coffee or any hot beverages for that matter. My mouth tends to react badly to temperatures that are too far away from my mouth's temperature. My dental history has revealed to me that I have a larger than average sensory nerve that feeds my mouth; luckily my system loves anesthetic though, the pain is worse for me but only for a very short time.

I find beverages that deviate from my mouth temperature too much to be less than enjoyable to consume and as such I find ways to avoid them or make them in a way that gets them to a temperature I like as soon as possible. This results in me making tea by squeezing the tea bag with a spoon and using water that isn't fully boiled to reduce the time I wait and the time I stir. It might help to note I only drink tea, Lemon and Ginger from Twinings with local honey, when I am sick and as such I treat it like medicine; get it over a done with as soon as possible, not a pleasurable experience many other people find tea to be.

I think you are right with your tea theory, at least in saying that it is simply too much effort and there are far more interesting things for Americans, and this goes for the rest of the world too, than perfecting a cup of tea. The UK seems to have a wide range of preferences for diverse range of things, all of which are delved into with great detail; unfortunately not many of these things are of interest to others, but immigrants sure as hell like your weather

Getting back to the subject of power usage, it would seem to me that because you like making the perfect cup of tea, and need water as hot as possible, that your preference for getting water to the temperature you want would be valued more than the time taken to get there. Either way the power usage should be similar because the temperature is the same so requires the same energy whether it is used in 15 seconds or 50. I would imagine the choice of voltage to be separate, but helpful, in the quest for the quickest time to boil water but that seems to be a minor part of the tea making equation if slight differences in oxygen within the water and temperature are as important as has been made out in some posts...

Time seems to be the most important factor for people that aren't tea purists rather than those who aren't so the power kettles used seems to be unrelated to the preferences of the users and more to do with choices about power delivery within the countries network. As mentioned some places have less kettles than expected.

I never thought I could write that much about tea... what has gotten in to me. Someone help.

[watercooled]

That would have been a nice thread to post in peterb; I have a high voltage electrical engineer as an uncle so I was the kid who asked awkward questions during science class about why we weren't learning that electricity flows through the surface of a material, not the centre. The larger the surface area the better the conduction, and the better the conductor the less heat is wasted during conduction.

The skin effect is a phenomenon which applies to AC current and the depth decreases as frequency increases. It's part of the reason HV cables are often made of separate, insulated strands and/or have a more conductive outer layer with a less conductive centre for strength, often aluminium-steel. It's also why you often see multiple cables ran in parallel rather than one huge cable.

[peterb]

The skin effect is a phenomenon which applies to AC current and the depth decreases as frequency increases. It's part of the reason HV cables are often made of separate, insulated strands and/or have a more conductive outer layer with a less conductive centre for strength, often aluminium-steel. It's also why you often see multiple cables ran in parallel rather than one huge cable.

Indeed - an exponential decrease as you move towards the centre of the conductor, IIRC

There is a good description here:

http://www.marcspages.co.uk/pq/3250.htm

The theory also applies to mechanical power transmission. A ship's propellor shaft (for example) is often a hollow tube, because in practice little torque is transmitted though the centre of the a solid shaft. Making the shaft hollow significantly reduces the mass, while having negligible effect on the power transmission characteristics. (Mechanical engineers will recall that power = torque x angular velocity)

Back to tea though... I don't drink much tea, coffee or any hot beverages for that matter. My mouth tends to react badly to temperatures that are too far away from my mouth's temperature. My dental history has revealed to me that I have a larger than average sensory nerve that feeds my mouth; luckily my system loves anesthetic though, the pain is worse for me but only for a very short time.

That sounds very uncomfortable - and I guess not much you can do - other than avoid very hot or very cold drinks - but at least you should be OK with a perfectly poured pint of real ale, and a glass of red wine!

never thought I could write that much about tea... what has gotten in to me. Someone help.

That's the HEXUS effect - gets UNDER your skin! From EU directives on vacuum cleaners to power transmission in ships, via vacuum kettles, tea making and dental problems!

[Top_gun]

However....re boiling a kettle really is a bad idea for your electricity bill.... That's common sense

But to have a kettle be really low powered and take longer than it does now would wind me up a treat!!

Actually it's energy inefficient to have a a kettle with a low powered element because it increases the time for heat being lost to surroundings as the water boils. A higher powered kettle will boil water quicker and this reduces the time for heat being lost to the surroundings.

No need to worry Zak, the EU has no plans to limit power on kettles despite what the media are saying. Hopefully thick film element kettles will result in faster boiling times and reducing your electricity bill.

Following on from my comments earlier about kettle efficiency - I have just seen this...

http://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B00IS3LFHI?psc=1

It seems it's one of those products which is over-engineered to be of any use for me on a daily basis. A complete waste of money to be honest. I wasn't exactly inspired to put this on my wants list after reading through the various model reviews.

Any energy saving is negated after boiling more water than needed. I tend to have a cup of tea every 2/3 hours and the product does not even guarantee freshly boiled water quality for this duration. The product is low powered when compared to my kettle which means it's unlikely to boil water quicker than mine. Some reviewers suggests this product is actually annoying to use.

I think I stick to my current kettle where I can boil a cup of water, with the right optimum temperature for tea, in less than a minute and save myself £60/70.

[peterb]

I think I stick to my current kettle where I can boil a cup of water, with the right optimum temperature for tea, in less than a minute and save myself £60/70.

And I can completely sympathise with that - sometimes convenience and a perceived better result are worth paying a little more for (in energy terms). However - because the kettle is insulated - the losses attributed to a lower power element and longer heating times will be compensated for by the reduced heat loss. I suspect the return on investment against the purchase price will be quite long though.

With regard to the heating element, an immersed element will be more efficient because the heat is being conducted straight into the water. There will be the thermal mass of the element body to consider, but that is quite low, given the relatively low thermal capacity of most metals.

Any external element, conventional or otherwise still has to pass the heat generated through the body of the kettle before it heats the water. A printed element may transfer its heat faster through a greater surface area, but I suspect that the difference in heating times would be negligible. Thick film elements seem (to me) to have an... er.... 'element' of marketing hype.

but the bottom line is that it takes a finite amount of energy to heat a finite amount of water a given amount. The only ways to reduce energy consumption are to

heat less water,

or

reduce the temperature difference between start and end points (so preheating water with say solar thermal panel)

or

reducing heat loss during the heating process (which is what the vacuum kettle does)

And the last method is really the only one that increases efficiency - if you measure efficiency as the ratio of theoretical energy required to boil the given mass of water by a specified amount to actual energy used to boil the same mass of water by the same amount.

[ik9000]

my kettle broke this weekend. I think it's a sign.

[DanceswithUnix]

My thermostat is a mechanical one but it's recent and works well

Honeywell job. I like their basic turny knob thermostat

I have this one: http://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B003DTK0S...005151_M3_dp_1

I believe the way is works is now pretty standard, but is something like this...

The central heating is turned on and off on a 15 minute cycle. The duty cycle of how long it is on is varied as the thermostat sees fit. In the first couple of days it learns the thermal inertia of the house, so it can better predict how to ramp the duty cycle up and down. The upside of this, no hysteresis. The mechanical one I replaced was ancient so the central heating came on a couple of degrees under the point you set it to, and by the time it went off again there was enough heat in the system that it would overshoot by another couple of degrees, so I was always either too hot or too cold.

Now the temperature in the winter is rock solid. Quality of life thing, I really am a convert.

Has another nice feature, if you turn the heating off at the thermostat and there is a really cold snap, if it detects the temperature dropping below freezing point then it will fire up the heating just enough to avoid any pipes bursting.

[DanceswithUnix]

As for sound converting into heat, this is true, but in the real world an HiFi system producing sound isn't likely to replace my central heating on a cold winter day for sure.

Pah, sounds like you need a bigger HiFi

Oh blimey, I hope they don't start trying to regulate that. For some people class-A amplifiers (massively wasteful, and really do impact your home heating) are like a religion. Coupled with the idea that you should never turn them off else they lose thermal equilibrium...

[Top_gun]

Pah, sounds like you need a bigger HiFi

Oh blimey, I hope they don't start trying to regulate that. For some people class-A amplifiers (massively wasteful, and really do impact your home heating) are like a religion. Coupled with the idea that you should never turn them off else they lose thermal equilibrium...

Amplifiers are one of the products being considered for regulation by the EU. I do have mixed feelings. Part of me craves energy efficiency but not at the expense of sound quality.

[peterb]

Amplifiers are one of the products being considered for regulation by the EU. I do have mixed feelings. Part of me craves energy efficiency but not at the expense of sound quality.

But that is currently your choice, just as it was with vacuum cleaners. The EU directives are restricting your freedom to choose.

[ik9000]

But that is currently your choice, just as it was with vacuum cleaners. The EU directives are restricting your freedom to choose.

except for abortion of course. Apparently we should all have the right to choose that! FFS

[DanceswithUnix]

Amplifiers are one of the products being considered for regulation by the EU. I do have mixed feelings. Part of me craves energy efficiency but not at the expense of sound quality.

Common theme here isn't it. I don't want a more efficient vacuum cleaner at the expense of quality.

But that is currently your choice, just as it was with vacuum cleaners. The EU directives are restricting your freedom to choose.

Absolutely. If they mandate class D for amplifiers that could send me into voting UKIP.

[kalniel]

So how about the alternative?: Whack bigger taxes on electricity usage. Then you have the choice to run a lower power devise for longer, or a higher powered one for shorter, or an efficient one, or an inefficient one if you so wish - you'll just be subsidising the tax burden on those who chose to be more efficient.