People thinking that they are saving money from more energy efficient products

[CAT-THE-FIFTH]

Graphics cards are an interesting issue because they're an interesting exercise in understanding the difference between maximum, mean, median and mode current draw. Peak, sleep mode, how it behaves when just web browsing, how it behaves in SLI, all important issues.

Yes,but even in the worst case scenarios,the power consumption calculations tend to be overrated at times and that is with very intensive FPS games,with no hard FPS cap which review sites use. Most reviews don't tend to test more than one game for power consumption let alone different parts of a game.

Very few sites go into detail about power draw anyway - at least TPU bothers to try and isolate card power consumption using a decent voltmeter and TH,is actually doing dynamic power measurements too. Interestingly they found that some of the newer boost systems actually do end up boosting factionally and massively over rated TDP(with high peak power consumption),but clock down quickly. This means that using a normal plugin meter might not be enough,as they cannot register these peaks quickly enough.

However I still think the power requirements for most systems are overrated anyway during normal gaming scenarios. For example - look at something like the Hexus at the wall power consumption measurements. Even with a highend card,and a overclocked Core i7 4770K,they are seeing under 400W at the wall.

Which is supported by what Valve was powering their prototype SteamBoxes off which uses a Geforce Titan and a Core i7 4770 - a SFF Silverstone 450W PSU. Not even a full sized PSU.

Even with my current system(Xeon E3 1230 V2 and a pre-overclocked GTX660),I am lucky to see beyond 200W peak power consumption(I used two different meters to verify). So slower cards like the GTX750TI and HD7850 will be even less,and they are since I had an HD7850 at hand to test for a few weeks.

But you can kind of tell companies know that - look at the prebuilt PCs from Lenovo,HP,etc with GTX660/R9 270 level cards - they are not shipping with massive PSUs themselves.

To put it in context the vast majority of highend single GPU cards,ie,the GTX780TI,GTX780,Geforce Titan,R9 290 and R9 290X tend to be lower than HD6970 level power consumption and lower than GTX570 and GTX580 cards at least going from the TPU figures.

[DanceswithUnix]

Here is an interesting one...

People are happy (Cat might even say too enthusiastic ) to buy products that are efficient and energy saving. But here is an idea for knowing how close to brownout the grid is atm:

http://www.dynamicdemand.co.uk/grid.htm

So what I am wondering is, while people are happy to pay for energy efficiency that will have a positive effect (even if small) on their energy bill, would people pay more for products that will work for the greater good but with no benefit to themselves? For example, a washing machine with a button that tells it to start washing when electricity is plentiful.

[TheAnimus]

http://www.gridwatch.templar.co.uk/

Nicer effect!

I think that Economy7 style pricing might come into force more. The fact we've the electric kettle rush during soaps and the like, I almost feel it's unfair I'm paying for that. Maybe we could see in an IoT future, having a far more granular charging schedule for power.

[CAT-THE-FIFTH]

Here is an interesting one...

People are happy (Cat might even say too enthusiastic ) to buy products that are efficient and energy saving. But here is an idea for knowing how close to brownout the grid is atm:

http://www.dynamicdemand.co.uk/grid.htm

So what I am wondering is, while people are happy to pay for energy efficiency that will have a positive effect (even if small) on their energy bill, would people pay more for products that will work for the greater good but with no benefit to themselves? For example, a washing machine with a button that tells it to start washing when electricity is plentiful.

Yes,but what is missed out is that when the electrical generation was privatised,a number of "surplus" power stations were shut down,and there has been a slowdown in the number of newer plants being built.

Also as with a lot of things - simply switching a TV or computer off if you intend to not use it for more than an hour,means no power drawn. Heck,even a cheapo sub £100 tablet would do for a few years for general web-browsing and e-mail for example,saving the 40W to 100W load load power consumption of a desktop.

Making a 10 to 15 minute walk to your shops instead of driving there,saves money and reduces the fuel load and so on.

Do you need that 60" TV,why not use a smaller 32" one which consumes less power??

[DanceswithUnix]

Do you need that 60" TV,why not use a smaller 32" one which consumes less power??

When I bought my last TV the price difference from 32" to 47" wasn't that huge, so I got the 47". It was the right choice.

Best for the environment? Well if I had bought the 32" then I think I wouldn't bother watching it as much because it wouldn't be as enjoyable, so lots of power would indeed be saved, but then I would read more books. You can run a TV for quite a long time for the cost of a £5 paperback, and no idea what the energy input is for the whole pulping printing & binding process so perhaps the world is better off with my overly large TV, but life just isn't that simple so I don't know.

[TooNice]

One of the thing I wonder a little, is why CAT seems to care this much. Don't get me wrong, I have no problem with the thread at all, and the point of general discussion is to random stuff. It is obvious that people will choose to replace the old with the new for all kinds of reasons. Some may be logical, e.g. old stuff broke/on the way to be broken, so need new stuff anyway. Other reasons may be less so, e.g. just want something shiny (as long as they can afford it, why not - I seem to remember a member with a thing for pen, watches and other things and probably have things that costs more than most spend on a TV; I myself had a projector which I could have lived without / am doing without, but it sure was good when I had it). Perhaps they really are bad at maths. Or perhaps they didn't bother -doing- the maths. Either way, I really don't have a problem with any of this. Someone not good at maths can still live a reasonable life if their chosen career doesn't make much use of it, and they don't run into a con-artist. They may not be as wealthy as they might be, but they will live just fine. As for those who do not bother doing the maths, they probably aren't that desperate to save money anyway. Let them contribute to the economy. While I am more the type who like to work out every little number in other to "optimise" my saving, My parents basically said that while it is good that I do little things to save up to a few hundred a year doing, I should think of ways on how to *earn* an extra few thousands instead. Easier said than done perhaps, but reflecting on that, the time I have spent, say, on posting on forums or looking that discount coupon etc. may indeed have costed me time I could have spent trying to generate income.. if that is my main goal.

Also, for what it's worth, I do not really know many people (anyone on top of my head) who replaced one device for a more efficient device -solely- because it is labelled as efficient. Within my circle, it is usually a case of replacing something that is in need of replacing or a combination of reasons which may include saving money as one factor, but not sole factor. And I do know more than a few people like myself who aren't trying to change the world but do a little here and there for the environment. Well, our views are indeed influenced by the people we meet, and I do not claim the people I know are the general population.

I very much doubt this electrical waste provides meaningful ambient heat. Try switching off your central heating and see how far you get on a cold winter day!

Hmm, my PC is on 24/7 for various reasons and central heating stays off whenever I live by myself (no flatmates). Even when I was in the North of Scotland. My freakishly high tolerance to low temperatures definitely makes a difference, and while I could probably manage without the PC on, I am perfectly comfortable (as opposed to 'can handle') the increased ambient temperature my PC provides.

[kalniel]

One of the thing I wonder a little, is why CAT seems to care this much.

Does he need a reason? This is a technology forum

[TooNice]

I think that the later part of discussion about efficiency / people do is indeed interesting and expected on a tech forum. But the initial premises is that some people may be thinking that they are saving money buying certain products, when in fact they aren't. But a lot of people are doing things that I consider illogical (drinking, smoking amongst the very common things), but as long as they don't hurt anyone other than themselves, I don't let bother me. They live their lives, I live mine - things would be boring if everyone behave exactly the same way.. even in regards to money. Looking at the effort/length of his post, this topic must be more than a passing thought. Is seeing people "waste" money a pet peeve of his?

[CAT-THE-FIFTH]

I think that the later part of discussion about efficiency / people do is indeed interesting and expected on a tech forum. But the initial premises is that some people may be thinking saving money buying certain products, when in fact they aren't. But a lot of people are doing things that I consider illogical (drinking, smoking amongst the very common things), but as long as they don't hurt anyone other than themselves, it is not something I let bother me. Their live their lives, I live mine - things would be boring if everyone behave exactly the same way.. even in regards to money. Looking at the effort/length of his post, this topic must be more than a passing thought. Is seeing people "waste" money a pet peeve of his?

Actually I disagree - I have seen people sidegrading for electricity usage before especially on forums,or paying significantly more to save power. I should know - I have actually gone into threads and have had to do it for a few years now.

I give you a simple example - graphics cards.

That R9 290 vs GTX970 one I mentioned too was an example. First comment in the thread with the main reason for choosing the latter - you are saving power. Then another chap later on said you would need a smaller PSU. Mike01 in this thread is running a Xeon E3 1230 V3(basically a Core i7 4770) and a R9 290 off a 450W PSU.....!

That was when the projected differences in up front costs could be as much as £60 to £85 between the cards.

The same went with people telling others to buy slower GTX750TI cards over faster GTX660/R9 270 cards when they were a similar price at one point,since the former "saved" power. Except I did the calculations for that too and showed it was miniscule too,expecially since the GTX660/R9 270 cards was quicker and would last longer between upgrades,and at the budget end you are far more limited by card processing power than actual power consumption.

People buying low power CPUs over normal ones when they are slower and not really any more efficient per watt. Like the Intel S series CPUs,which are not really worth the premium in lower performance over a "normal" one.

Low voltage RAM,which is hardly saving power over higher voltage stuff and so on.

Paying over the odds for a Gold rated PSU over a Bronze one or a Platimum one over a Gold one and so on.

But the problem is when people make vague statements like,pay more since you "save power" to people asking for advice but its not based on them doing the maths to back it up.

If they even bothered to try and do the maths,at least it would make more sense.

That is just with computers with their massive built-in obsolescence.

Even with cars,people fretting over replacing their "old" car with one that does 5MPG more,but spending a few grand in the process,and still not keeping it for more than a few years. Yes,I have bumped into such people before.

At least with certain household things like insulation,double glazing,etc it actually adds monetary value to the home and they are longer term purchases.

Even solar panels.

[TooNice]

Admittedly it has been a few years since I have used a desktop, and I only get back to speed whenever I need to buy a new computer nowadays. Still, prior to moving almost exclusively to laptop (for mobility more than any other reason), I was pretty much into (near) silent computing. So I was pretty much in the business of spending more for less of everything including the all important (to me) noise. And if I were to settle (still moving around) for long enough to get a desktop, I would probably go for the same approach again.

For what it's worth, I think that the fact that you actively stay on top of those things all the time is great and for any build that requires efficiency in terms of bang for buck, I would certainly listen to your input. I suppose that perhaps the hardware enthusiast side of me has pretty much died and it doesn't really bother me if someone wants to argue for hardware A or hardware B anymore. If someone think hardware A is the best thing ever, even when I find the argument suspect, fine go for it. Whereas I recall a time when I would get into arguments about hardware I had no intent on buying but crunching numbers on a spreadsheet just to support my arguments.

[CAT-THE-FIFTH]

Well,OTH I would say that the effiency improvements have helped one area though -gaming laptops. So,TBH,you could probably get away with a laptop now over a desktop but at a price.

[CAT-THE-FIFTH]

Power consumption "savings" strike again in this thread:

http://forums.hexus.net/graphics-car...x-670-a-2.html

[DanceswithUnix]

I admire your tenacity with this stuff Cat, but some people just cannot be argued with using mere facts and logic and your sourcerous maths.

This should amuse you, we have all been there...

(Edit: Just re-watched this, it is slightly sweary)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kGex0kLgNok

[watercooled]

The funny thing is, it seems the non-reference 970 power consumption may be higher than reference 780.

http://www.techpowerup.com/reviews/P...Stream/23.html

Of course it will vary from card to card, but there's by no means a 'ridiculous' difference.

[Top_gun]

I admire your tenacity with this stuff Cat, but some people just cannot be argued with using mere facts and logic and your sourcerous maths.

This should amuse you, we have all been there...

(Edit: Just re-watched this, it is slightly sweary)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kGex0kLgNok

This is a highly inappropriate behaviour depicting innocent forum members as not being intelligent. I can see no basis for this claim. At the end of the day, it's their money and they can choose what ever products they wish to buy. They saw value in the 970 card as they wanted performance per watt. They were not interested in knowing the price of everything. In fact the person justified his purchase by getting a five year warranty.

[pp05]

Why are people so gullible to "energy effiency" marketing??

I see people paying MORE for more energy efficient things,thinking they are saving money but in reality they are spending more over time,since:
1.)The savings in power are not really enough to offset the higher cost of the product overall
2.)People tend to think since they are using something more energy efficient they can use it more,but end up still spending more overall
3.)Concentrate on the WRONG appliances/products to save energy on

In many cases,your usage habits are more important regarding energy costs,than actually the product itself.

Is it people just buying these products so that they feel "better" about contributing to the environment or is that people are just poor at maths??

Is the media at fault for not informing people better??

It does seem like people are paying upfront for some future savings. You would only ever get near the savings if you use the product a lot, it doesn't break down in all the time you use it and the price of energy stays constant or increases.

If you're on a meter, then it may have some impact by choosing a better appliance. The main one is the fridge. How soon you would benefit from it I don't know. Because the thing that no one takes into account is quality. Are you saving energy and thereby money without giving up too much in terms of quality?