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Thread: People thinking that they are saving money from more energy efficient products

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    People thinking that they are saving money from more energy efficient products

    Why are people so gullible to "energy effiency" marketing??

    I see people paying MORE for more energy efficient things,thinking they are saving money but in reality they are spending more over time,since:
    1.)The savings in power are not really enough to offset the higher cost of the product overall
    2.)People tend to think since they are using something more energy efficient they can use it more,but end up still spending more overall
    3.)Concentrate on the WRONG appliances/products to save energy on

    In many cases,your usage habits are more important regarding energy costs,than actually the product itself.

    Is it people just buying these products so that they feel "better" about contributing to the environment or is that people are just poor at maths??

    Is the media at fault for not informing people better??

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    Re: People thinking that they are saving money from more energy efficient products

    get solar panels on roof = use when the sun is shing = profit.


    or do as my neighbour does , work when its sunny then complain they don't save much money when they are home in the DARK.

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    Re: People thinking that they are saving money from more energy efficient products

    There is a general misunderstanding between power and energy. There is a tendency in some areas to think the two are the same, when of course they aren't! Energy=power*time

    The simple example is heating a cup of water. I can use a 3Kw kettle for (say) 3 minutes, which will consume 150Wh of energy. Or I can use an "energy efficient" 1.5Kw kettle...but it will take 6 minutes. Result, unsurprisingly, is 150Wh - not more energy efficient for the consumer whose cost is exactly the same.

    That is not the whole story of course. Reducing power consumption (as opposed to energy consumption) reduces energy losses in the distribution system, and can reduce the overall demand for installed generating capacity.

    I have recently installed solar panels, (link here http://forums.hexus.net/home-garden-...lar_cells.html) so matching my power demand to my instantaneous power generation has taken on a greater significance.

    In the example above, if I am generating 1.5Kw, using a 3Kw kettle for three minutes means I will consume (and pay for) 75wh of energy - the rest of the energy coming from the panels. But if I use a 1.5 Kw kettle, it will take six minutes, but as all the energy is being generated by me, it will cost me nothing. So the game for me is to minimise the power taken from the grid, i and smooth my power consumption across the day. But my overall energy consumption will be broadly the same.

    And I see the sun is shining, so after a quick look at my solar generation meter, I shall be putting on the washing machine!
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    Re: People thinking that they are saving money from more energy efficient products

    Yes,but many of the people think by spending more on energy efficient products they will actually save money overall.

    Look at something like computers for example - I see people go on about how they will spend more on a energy efficient CPU or GPU,but then overclock it,use a 5000W PSU,not consider any of the other parts of the rig and then keep said rig on 24/7 just because they CBA to switch the PC on. Someone with a less efficient rig who just uses it when they need to use it will probably use less electricity over the year.

    Same with plasma TVs against LCD ones. I know people with plasmas who will only switch it on when they watch TV but then switch it off. There are people who will use an LCD and then just keep it on,or on standby instead(since it consumes less power).

    Cars are more of the same thing. People spend disportionately more to get that extra 5MPG extra,but it will take them years to get that money back in fuel savings,and then drive to the shops instead since they CBA to walk for 10 minutes just to get a loaf of bread.

    Usage habits are FAR more important than actual consumption ratings.
    Last edited by CAT-THE-FIFTH; 03-10-2014 at 10:26 AM.

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    Re: People thinking that they are saving money from more energy efficient products

    Quote Originally Posted by CAT-THE-FIFTH View Post
    use a 5000W PSU
    that part wont effect it though CAT.. in might even use less electricity as it maybe more efficient.. though as you say.. it would have cost them lots more to buy

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    Re: People thinking that they are saving money from more energy efficient products

    Quote Originally Posted by CAT-THE-FIFTH View Post
    Why are people so gullible to "energy effiency" marketing??

    I see people paying MORE for more energy efficient things,thinking they are saving money but in reality they are spending more over time,since:
    1.)The savings in power are not really enough to offset the higher cost of the product overall
    2.)People tend to think since they are using something more energy efficient they can use it more,but end up still spending more overall
    3.)Concentrate on the WRONG appliances/products to save energy on

    In many cases,your usage habits are more important regarding energy costs,than actually the product itself.

    Is it people just buying these products so that they feel "better" about contributing to the environment or is that people are just poor at maths??

    Is the media at fault for not informing people better??
    Are you suggesting that "energy efficient" devices aren't, or that for SOME devices, it's a con, a marketing ploy? I assume it's the latter. If so, I agree.

    There's also two linked, but separate issues :-

    - does a device save energy. I.e. do a specific job using less energy?
    - is it a sensible "investment" in financial terms alone?

    There are occasions when the answer is 'yes' to both, but others where it's 'yes' to the first, but may be 'no' to the second.

    I replaced a freezer a year or so back. The old one used about 130w, with the 'motor' running, and in ran quite a lot, due to relatively poor insulation, and a faulty door seal. The replacement uses about 20w, runs a LOT less because it's far more thermally efficient .... despite being about 40% bigger.

    Now THAT is energy efficient, without doubt. But whether changing is worth doing on money grounds alone is another matter. I did run the numbers at the time, and it was going to "pay off", but it was going to take quite a while to do it, so it largely depends how long the freezer lasts. The old one was about 20 years, and if the new one lasts that long, it'll pay for itself. Also, of course, I had to make assumptions about both the future cost of electricity (I assumed today's cost was fixed, though in reality, I expect it to rise) and about the lost interest from using the capital cost (about £450) to buy a freezer, rather than sitting in a savings account).

    I had to replace that freezer anyway, but yes, it's energy efficient, and yes, it's eventually financially viable, and certainly was because I had to change it anyway. I've changed quite a few light bulbs. They're ALMOST all worth it financially, and all energy-saving in that they light the areas using less energy, than incandescent.

    But none of that means that cynical manufacturers are slapping "energy efficient" labels on anything that moves. The obligation, of course, is on consumers to look at claims a little deeper than "mere marketing puff", and read the specific, detailed claims. And if there aren't any, then you know it's "puff".

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    Re: People thinking that they are saving money from more energy efficient products

    I find the power/energy saving conundrum just moves the older, lower tech, high pwer draw stuff down the economy chain to people who cant realyl afford to buy new.. but then use more power as an outcome

    example: Zak plugs in main power meter to fridge. Fridge uses electricity. Zak works out years cost. Zak looks at new fridge and yearly cost offset against price of new fridge over 5 years.. AND TAKES INTO ACCOUNT HOW MUCH THE OLD FRIDGE WILL SELL ON EBAY FOR


    next owner not likely to look at power use... I don't list it on ebay.. and off they toddle with power hungry monster

    word = not a lot better off tbh.. except that thier old unit that's died goes to the dump and uses no more power.. though needs scrapping

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    Re: People thinking that they are saving money from more energy efficient products

    Oh, and yes, usage habits can indeed make a big difference without spending a penny on new whatever. Someone, Zak I think, posted a thread a couple of years ago about putting a meter (induction-coupled type) on your household supply and learning about your habits. He was right.

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    Re: People thinking that they are saving money from more energy efficient products

    Quote Originally Posted by CAT-THE-FIFTH View Post
    Yes,but many of the people think by spending more on energy efficient products they will actually save money overall.

    Look at something like computers for example - I see people go on about how they will spend more on a energy efficient CPU or GPU,but then overclock it,use a 5000W PSU,not consider any of the other parts of the rig and then keep said rig on 24/7 just because they CBA to switch the PC on. Someone with a less efficient rig who just uses it when they need to use it will probably use less electricity over the year.

    Same with plasma TVs against LCD ones. I know people with plasmas who will only switch it on when they watch TV but then switch it off. There are people who will use an LCD and then just keep it on,or on standby instead(since it consumes less power).

    Cars are more of the same thing. People spend disportionately more to get that extra 5MPG extra,but it will take them years to get that money back in fuel savings,and then drive to the shops instead since they CBA to walk for 10 minutes just to get a loaf of bread.

    Usage habits are FAR more important than actual consumption ratings.
    Cat - your falling into the same trap - you don't consume power - you use or draw power. You consume energy! Energy = power*time. Energy is what you pay for (domestically - factories have a different tariff structure based on VA).
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    Re: People thinking that they are saving money from more energy efficient products

    Quote Originally Posted by Zak33 View Post
    I find the power/energy saving conundrum just moves the older, lower tech, high pwer draw stuff down the economy chain to people who cant realyl afford to buy new.. but then use more power as an outcome

    example: Zak plugs in main power meter to fridge. Fridge uses electricit. Zak works out years cost. Zak looks at new fridge and yearly cost offset against price of new fridge over 5 years.. AND TAKES INTO ACCOUNT HOW MUCH THE OLD FRIDGE WILL SELL ON EBAY FOR


    next owner not likely to look at power use... I don't list it on ebay.. and off they toddle with power hungry monster

    word = not a lot better off tbh.. except that thier old unit that's died goes to the dump and uses no more power.. though needs scrapping
    Quote Originally Posted by Saracen View Post
    Oh, and yes, usage habits can indeed make a big difference without spending a penny on new whatever. Someone, Zak I think, posted a thread a couple of years ago about putting a meter (induction-coupled type) on your household supply and learning about your habits. He was right.
    The problem is people don't seem to get it about usage habits.

    You might have seen me on this forum explain it to people with actual calculations with regards to computers. I will sidegrade/downgrade to XYZ since I want to save money,when in reality it will have taken a few years for them to actually get that money back.

    Its not helped that at least for computers,many of the review websites use stupid things like prime number generation to measure power consumption and then use weird 24/7,365 day calculations to measure money saved. I am not sure whether they are ignorant or just being tabloid like.

    By the time the savings to make sense,they would have upgraded.
    Last edited by CAT-THE-FIFTH; 03-10-2014 at 10:55 AM.

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    Re: People thinking that they are saving money from more energy efficient products

    Quote Originally Posted by peterb View Post
    Cat - your falling into the same trap - you don't consume power - you use or draw power. You consume energy! Energy = power*time. Energy is what you pay for (domestically - factories have a different tariff structure based on VA).
    Yes,you understand what I am going on about though even if I used the wrong terms.

    Example:

    1.)Pay £500 for a device which draws 500W at the wall. Use for 1000 hours a year. Will be replaced in 5 years.

    2.)Pay £250 for a device which draws 700W at the wall. Use for 1000 hours a year. Will be replaced in 5 years.

    Lets assume they have similar performance.

    People will pay for 1.) since they will "save" money.

    But at 18P a kWh,then what is actually saving you money??

    Total cost for first device =£950.

    Total cost for second device= £880.

    The second devices cost £36 a year more,but will cost you less over 5 years.

    Even if you add inflation/energy cost increases,in the end you don't really end up saving money.

    Plus people end probably using HP or CCs,to help spread out costs so probably end up paying even more for the expensive items anyway.

    A lot of electronics won't be used for very long periods anymore,ie, 10 years or so,as either:
    1.)It breaks
    2.)People want more performance
    3.)People want something new
    Last edited by CAT-THE-FIFTH; 03-10-2014 at 10:57 AM.

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    Re: People thinking that they are saving money from more energy efficient products

    Small savings add up. My background load (ie, when I'm asleep) is about 200Watts - and is mainly fridge, freezer and a small low power server. So over 24 hours that adds up to about 5Kwh which is about 80p/day - or £300 year. There isn't a lot I can do to reduce that. However, that 5KWh ultimately ends up as heat, so theoretically my heating bill should reduce slightly. And in fact the room where I have my server low power though it is, doesn't have any other heating in it - at least not normally turned on. And my kitchen probably has a slightly higher background temperature because of the heat chucked out at the back of the appliances - heat pumped out from inside the cabinet, as well as heat consumed by the motor in compressing the working fluid in the heat pump.

    The same goes for your hypothetical 5KW PSU. Ultimately all the energy consumed is converted into heat - it doesn't matter how energy efficient it is - all the energy consumed ends up as heat - think of the computer as a 5KW heater, so - and again in theory) turning off any additional heating in that room should compensate for the heat kicked out by that machine.
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    Re: People thinking that they are saving money from more energy efficient products

    The ones that get me are the 'energy efficient' or 'eco' halogen spotlight bulbs. Use only 35 watts instead of the 60 or even 100 of a 'normal' bulb....

    Having said that, I looked a while back at replacing the cooker hood bulb with something LED or CFL. Back of envelope calculations showed it would take over ten years to pay off obscure and probably not very good LED jobs, given how little the cooker hood lights are on.

    Oh, and people who massive mahoosive US style 'energy efficent' freezers, grrrr... As mad as PC owners with 'gold' efficient PSUs for their insane 1 kilowatt TDP rig?
    Last edited by wasabi; 03-10-2014 at 11:20 AM.

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    Re: People thinking that they are saving money from more energy efficient products

    Quote Originally Posted by CAT-THE-FIFTH View Post
    Yes,you understand what I am going on about though even if I used the wrong terms.
    Yes, indeed, and I'm not having a dig - but it is confusion over terminology that is part of the problem in understanding.

    Quote Originally Posted by CAT-THE-FIFTH View Post
    :

    1.)Pay £500 for a device which draws 500W at the wall. Use for 1000 hours a year. Will be replaced in 5 years.

    2.)Pay £250 for a device which draws 700W at the wall. Use for 1000 hours a year. Will be replaced in 5 years.

    Lets assume they have similar performance.

    People will pay for 1.) since they will "save" money.

    But at 18P a kWh,then what is actually saving you money??

    Total cost for first device =£950.

    Total cost for second device= £880.

    The second devices cost £36 a year more,but will cost you less over 5 years.

    Even if you add inflation/energy cost increases,in the end you don't really end up saving money.

    Plus people end probably using HP or CCs,to help spread out costs so probably end up paying even more for the expensive items anyway.

    A lot of electronics won't be used for very long periods anymore,ie, 10 years or so,as either:
    1.)It breaks
    2.)People want more performance
    3.)People want something new
    That is more a return on investment issue than one of energy consumption - and then if you start looking at the really big picture, you have` to look at the energy costs in the manufacture of the products. But as consumers, we are interested in what we pay - and there may be other factors that drive a purchase decision, running costs may be another. Heaven forbid - even fashion - which to my mind is another artificial construct to drive consumer sales.
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    Re: People thinking that they are saving money from more energy efficient products

    Quote Originally Posted by peterb View Post
    Small savings add up. My background load (ie, when I'm asleep) is about 200Watts - and is mainly fridge, freezer and a small low power server. So over 24 hours that adds up to about 5Kwh which is about 80p/day - or £300 year. There isn't a lot I can do to reduce that. However, that 5KWh ultimately ends up as heat, so theoretically my heating bill should reduce slightly. And in fact the room where I have my server low power though it is, doesn't have any other heating in it - at least not normally turned on. And my kitchen probably has a slightly higher background temperature because of the heat chucked out at the back of the appliances - heat pumped out from inside the cabinet, as well as heat consumed by the motor in compressing the working fluid in the heat pump.

    The same goes for your hypothetical 5KW PSU. Ultimately all the energy consumed is converted into heat - it doesn't matter how energy efficient it is - all the energy consumed ends up as heat - think of the computer as a 5KW heater, so - and again in theory) turning off any additional heating in that room should compensate for the heat kicked out by that machine.
    But small savings don't add up when people are wasting 100s of pounds to get those savings.

    PSUs are the same. The large PSUs are not in their peak effiency curves many of the times,and the rigs don't consume anywhere near what is required. Using a 750W PSU which cost £100 to power a rig which will near see more than 300W is stupid. Instead if they bought a 500W jobbies for £60 with similar effiency then they would probably have saved £40 upfront and the probably have lower leccy costs,as they actual load is right in the most efficient part of the curve for the PSU.

    But then you get people spend £80 to go from a Bronze rated PSU to a Silver PSU when the leccy costs save would take like 5 to 7 years to make any difference,and by taht time you have not saved anything since the part is usually dead or replaced.

    You get the other stupid aspect when people will sidegrade to save like 50W to 60W of power on a single component and would have lost like £100 in the process,then use the most inefficient motherboard which draws 30W more,and so on.

    Quote Originally Posted by peterb View Post
    Yes, indeed, and I'm not having a dig - but it is confusion over terminology that is part of the problem in understanding.



    That is more a return on investment issue than one of energy consumption - and then if you start looking at the really big picture, you have` to look at the energy costs in the manufacture of the products. But as consumers, we are interested in what we pay - and there may be other factors that drive a purchase decision, running costs may be another. Heaven forbid - even fashion - which to my mind is another artificial construct to drive consumer sales.
    Yes,the problem is also always upgrading to new and shiney things consumes more resources in energy and materials consumed.

    Look at those old Kenwood Chef mixers.

    I bet by modern standards they are not efficient.

    But considering that many have lasted 30 to 40 years,who has consumed more energy and spend more over time??

    The person who used that one mixer for 35 years,or the other one who has bought 7 newer,"more advanced" models in the first place??

    Who has wasted more resources overall??
    Last edited by CAT-THE-FIFTH; 03-10-2014 at 11:12 AM.

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    Re: People thinking that they are saving money from more energy efficient products

    Tere is a wider picture though - there are benefits in reducing power draw - not necessarily to the individual, but as a social benefit. I referred to some of the issues involved here http://forums.hexus.net/general-disc...ml#post3379497. Reducing peak current on the national grid can have significant impact on overall power generation efficiency, and hence on global energy consumption. But we aren't metered for those losses (although we ultimately pay for them as part of our overall energy costs)
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