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Thread: Christmas comes early for UKIP

  1. #33
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    Re: Christmas comes early for UKIP

    Quote Originally Posted by kalniel View Post
    That's up to the UK to decide. The EU doesn't tell member states how to raise their contributions.
    The money has been raised already, the UK isn't going to come up with a new tax between now and December 1st. What changes is that the UK government has less to spend. It is a fact that the poor benefit more from government spending than the rich and therefore the poor have the most to lose.

    Quote Originally Posted by kalniel View Post
    I don't think the EU was set up to protect the poor.
    Actually it was. Not the sole objective of course, but certainly one of the central aims.

    Quote Originally Posted by kalniel View Post
    So you would turn down an offer that's better for your own country, simply because another country would also benefit even more?
    What offer am I turning down?
    I'd turn down paying £1.7bn quite happily.

  2. #34
    Banhammer in peace PeterB kalniel's Avatar
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    Re: Christmas comes early for UKIP

    Quote Originally Posted by Willzzz View Post
    The money has been raised already, the UK isn't going to come up with a new tax between now and December 1st.
    Then why assume that they will cut spending either? As always, variation in the income vs spending is covered by borrowing more or less. Whose to say that there won't be some arrangement that'll enable us to defer payment in real terms via lending.

    What changes is that the UK government has less to spend. It is a fact that the poor benefit more from government spending than the rich and therefore the poor have the most to lose.
    The govt. chooses how it raises it money and what proportion it gets from tax vs spending, not the EU.

    What offer am I turning down?
    I'd turn down paying £1.7bn quite happily.
    Even if that meant throwing away a net gain of say £10bn somewhere else? That wouldn't make sense.

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    Re: Christmas comes early for UKIP

    @Saracen

    The trouble with the concept of fairness is that no-one can define what it means.

    Some people think it means treating everyone equally, others think it means making allowances for every difference. Realistically we go for some form of compromise where major differences are accounted for but smaller differences are ignored. Of course this still leaves a lot of scope for disagreement on which differences should count and how much they should count by.

    I haven't even touched upon the "fairness" of this latest development. I've pointed out that it will likely hurt the poor more and that many regard the existing contributions as unfair. The EU even admits this in the form of the UK rebate.

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    Re: Christmas comes early for UKIP

    Borrowing more is the very last thing the government wants to be doing right now. The UK cannot afford more debt.

    The government cannot choose how it raises the money if the payment is suddenly sprung upon it. To be able to choose you have to be able to plan ahead.

    If there was a convincing argument that there would be a £10bn gain then that would be fair enough. However that would very hard to do.

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    Re: Christmas comes early for UKIP

    Has it really been 'sprung' upon us? Either someone at the EU needs a kicking or someone at No 11 needs a kicking.

    Meanwhile. Drove round Northern Crete on hols in Sept. Very nice it was too. Every other lovely new road was proudly EU funded. Come back to UK to congested potholed gridlock hell. What goes around isn't coming around.

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    Re: Christmas comes early for UKIP

    Quote Originally Posted by Willzzz View Post
    @Saracen

    The trouble with the concept of fairness is that no-one can define what it means.

    Some people think it means treating everyone equally, others think it means making allowances for every difference. Realistically we go for some form of compromise where major differences are accounted for but smaller differences are ignored. Of course this still leaves a lot of scope for disagreement on which differences should count and how much they should count by.

    I haven't even touched upon the "fairness" of this latest development. I've pointed out that it will likely hurt the poor more and that many regard the existing contributions as unfair. The EU even admits this in the form of the UK rebate.
    Agreed, but surely any sensible basis for assessment of economic performance means you include the same things in every country, and crunch the numbers in the same way.

    The "fairness" should come in how you determine what to do with pots of money the EU has to dish out, so, grants, structural funding, etc.

    Bear in mind, the EU largely takes with one hand and gives out with the other. Even the big net contributors, like the UK, get quite a large proportion of contributions made back in funding of various types.

    So, everybody's economy should be assessed by including the same things, excluding the same things, and running the numbers in an identical fashion. You can then be "fair" in how you divvy up the pie. And surely, THAT is where fairness gets decided, not in biasing calculations by using a different basis for stats. If you want to use stats for comparative purposes, you have to use the same basis everywhere.

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    Re: Christmas comes early for UKIP

    That's exactly what I meant when I said Germany get a better deal than us. Despite being a rich country and contributing a lot they get an awful lot more back than we do.

    The UK and the Netherlands are already the two countries who are worst off, this latest development, even thought it may be fair in terms of contributions is just pouring salt on the wound.

  8. #40
    Banhammer in peace PeterB kalniel's Avatar
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    Re: Christmas comes early for UKIP

    Quote Originally Posted by Willzzz View Post
    That's exactly what I meant when I said Germany get a better deal than us. Despite being a rich country and contributing a lot they get an awful lot more back than we do.
    In what way? I'd argue it's probably the opposite as we get a very generous rebate. Germany, France and Italy likely pay quite a lot more than we do.

    The UK and the Netherlands are already the two countries who are worst off, this latest development, even thought it may be fair in terms of contributions is just pouring salt on the wound.
    Are we talking about the same EU here? The UK is one of the richer countries in the EU, it's nowhere near the bottom two. I think we're on track to be basically the second richest soon, if we're not already.

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    Re: Christmas comes early for UKIP

    Worst off in terms of funding received / contributions made.

    Yes we probably are on track to become the second richest the way France is going.

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    Re: Christmas comes early for UKIP

    Quote Originally Posted by Willzzz View Post
    Worst off in terms of funding received / contributions made.

    Yes we probably are on track to become the second richest the way France is going.
    We are, consistently, one of the larger net contributors, yes. And that's despite getting the highly contentious rebate. Or rather, we are in absolute terms. But tyen, we're also one of the largest, population-wise, with (IIRC) Germany the largest (80m-ish) and with us at about 63m, we're a hair smaller than France. But the Dutch could make a compelling argument for being the most hard done by, if you look at net contribution/rebate, per capita .... as a Dutch friend regularly reminds me.

    The Dutch also got hit hardest by this 'recalculation', in per capita terms. Though not by a lot.

    The point I was making, though, is that those with the biggest bill to pay are those that, due to calculation inconsistencies, have got away with underpaying by the most.

    It seems to me there's two comoletely different issues :-

    1) Does the UK get value for money from the EU, being a huge net contributor? I'm inclined to think not, but it's an argument beyond the scope of this thread.

    2) Is this 'recalculation', and the bill it gives us, "fair"?

    And on 2), if it's come about by finally reconciling the different ways EU member states do their stats, then yeah, it's fair. We all ought to be measuring our economies on the ssme, consistent basis. And weren't.

    I do wonder, though .... we've been in the Common Market/EEC/EU for north of 40 flaming years. Has it REALLY taken Brussels that long to notice they don't measure economies the same way accross the 'union', and do something about it? If so, it's utter, rank incompetence.

  11. #43
    HEXUS.Metal Knoxville's Avatar
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    Re: Christmas comes early for UKIP

    Quote Originally Posted by wasabi View Post
    Just a trashy ad hominem attack on those who are anti-EU. 'people with no attention span and a largely mediocre education that have grown up believing Daily Mail headlines'

    If I said 'self-righteous trendy naive fools with a low IQ induced by headbanging who havn't paid any attention to political events beyond BBC brainwashing', that would be rude, but of a similar level of political debate. So please stop it.
    Actually the interviews I heard were on Planet Rock not the BBC, however clearly I misunderstood the well thought out and unassailable logic presented by those being interviewed, perhaps it's all the headbanging I do on the A38 on my way home

    It appears my can of cats is open and the pigeons are everywhere... It was not my intention to make sweeping generalisations about people that are anit-EU, however I do feel that the description I gave sums up 99% of all UKIP and BNP supporters I have ever heard string together a sentence and I will defend that generalisation to the hilt based on personal experience.

    They don't understand why they're against the EU, they just are because "what do we pay them for?" and you know what, nobody ever explained what exactly we pay money into it for at my school either so if someone has some salient points to make about it I will happily listen.

    What I won't do is sit and force a smile while more and more voters gravitate towards political parties that will do more harm than good with any modicum of power that they end up with because they agree with one item on the agenda and don't bother reading the rest. Which is exactly what I see happening amongst my peers. It worries me that a vote can be bought with a few pictures of Spitfires and British Bulldogs, a bit of Europe bashing and the promise that all those Johnny foreigners that have been stealing your jobs will be shipped home. These are people I wouldn't trust with a loaded potato gun let alone a nation and I dislike seeing them with more ammuntion than they already have regardless of where it comes from.

  12. #44
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    Re: Christmas comes early for UKIP

    Quote Originally Posted by Knoxville View Post
    Actually the interviews I heard were on Planet Rock not the BBC, however clearly I misunderstood the well thought out and unassailable logic presented by those being interviewed, perhaps it's all the headbanging I do on the A38 on my way home

    It appears my can of cats is open and the pigeons are everywhere... It was not my intention to make sweeping generalisations about people that are anit-EU, however I do feel that the description I gave sums up 99% of all UKIP and BNP supporters I have ever heard string together a sentence and I will defend that generalisation to the hilt based on personal experience.

    They don't understand why they're against the EU, they just are because "what do we pay them for?" and you know what, nobody ever explained what exactly we pay money into it for at my school either so if someone has some salient points to make about it I will happily listen.

    What I won't do is sit and force a smile while more and more voters gravitate towards political parties that will do more harm than good with any modicum of power that they end up with because they agree with one item on the agenda and don't bother reading the rest. Which is exactly what I see happening amongst my peers. It worries me that a vote can be bought with a few pictures of Spitfires and British Bulldogs, a bit of Europe bashing and the promise that all those Johnny foreigners that have been stealing your jobs will be shipped home. These are people I wouldn't trust with a loaded potato gun let alone a nation and I dislike seeing them with more ammuntion than they already have regardless of where it comes from.
    Most people that vote for UKIP arn't doing so as they really think it's a wise choice for UKIP to have power. They are doing so as they don't like the EU, just as someone doesn't like the EU, and holds a different opinion to you. Doesn't make them racist BNP supporters now does it!
    People don't like the EU as it's a massive waste of money and those that hold the power are completly unacountable to the people of Europe.
    If we had a referendum in the EU (like we were promised a number of times) then UKIPs political force would dissapear. Whichever way the vote went.
    If the vote was to stay in europe UKIPs whole reason for being would be undermined, and if the vote was to leave then most sensible voters would go back normal polotics.
    But as very large numbers of the population are anti EU (not all racists believe it or not!), and are being ignored and have been for years then UKIP will continue to do well.
    If the conservatives want to win the general election then they just need to push the EU referendum forward to before the general election. I still don't think there will be a referendum on the EU despite the promises.
    Even if we do get a vote it'll no doubt be like Ireland and referendums will keep coming untill there's the vote that polotitions want, or like Portugal & any other coutry that were given the vote and voted no they'll just be ignored.
    The EU is just about the most corrupt and undemocratic political organisation going. How anyone can think that is a good idea is beyond me.

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    Re: Christmas comes early for UKIP

    Knox, people voting for UKIP do so for a variety of reasons. There may be one core issue, there may be several, or it might be a variety of factors. Putting it all down to either bigoted anti-immigration or irrational anti-EU views misses the point. There are many reasons for wanting out of the EU, and by no means all if them are even economic.

    And yet another group are starting to vote UKIP precusely because they aren't the other two main parties.

    However you cut it, all sorts of disparate groups vote UKIP for different reasons. In the past, UKIP support came primarily from those with Tory inclinations. THAT is no longer true. For instance, there is a substantial body of opinion in the Midlands and North, in traditionally Labour heartland, that DO blame Labour for dropping us in our current mess (whatever fatuoys drivel Labour politicuans keep coming up with to deflect blame), and that don't see the current Labour team, or party, as credible. Mostly, they couldn't bring themselves to vote Tory, and UKIP are finally presenting a vaguely electorally credible alternative that isn't either Labour or Tory.

    There's yet another group that historically don't vote. Their logic is simple. Only one of the two main parties can end up running the system, because our 'democracy' is loaded so as to rig it that way. And they don't see any major difference between Labour and Tories. All that changes is the names of the elitist lying scumbags running the country, and whether you vote or not, and whatever the vote, the conjuring trick that us our democracy used to ensure you got one bunch of liars or another.

    Election results are telling us, again and again, that there just might be a credible alternative that, even if it can't win and end up as government, CAN drive change, and by virtue of threatening the two-party status quo, can get those elitist lying scumbags to actually LISTEN to the people for a change.

    I very likely will vote UKIP next May. Why? A number of reasons. One is I want a referendum on the EU. I want a full, frank, reasonably rational adult debate, not the peurile and patronising drivel that all three current main parties dish out in the secure knowledge that we, the people, get a vote. And then, I want the people to decide, in or out.

    Right now, we are subject to EU laws, EU rules, and paying a substantial amount of money to be in an EU that we, the people, have NEVER been asked if we wanted to be in. I've had one company telling me I can't work the hours I want to work because an EU bureaucracy the people of this country have never voted for decided I can't.

    Wanting a referendum doesn't even mean you want to leave the EU. It does mwan you want the people to make that call, not the egotistical lying scumbags that, whether Labour or Tory, run the country.

    Labour promised a referendum, then reneged on it. The Tories did too, but managed to find a way to weasel out, blaming it on LibDem coalition partners.

    Yet now, we have legislation suppisedly ensuring we get one before more 'major' powers are transferred, yet closer examination shows existing EU treaties, mainly Lisbon, provide for a LOT of future 'integration' to be done by administrative orders, not requiring referenda-triggering treaty change. Our current 'guarantee' is, in large part, yet another conjuring trick, that at the very least merely kicks the can that is letting US decide further down the road.

    But, since UKIP won the Euro elections, taking first place, and has taken one Tory seat, looks like taking another in about three weeks, and gave Labour a REALLY big scare by very nearly nicking a Labour seat out from under a stonking great majority in a safe seat.

    Take that Labour near loss. The Labour/UKIP marhin was what, 400-ish votes. And the Tories got 2500 votes. So, imagine re-running that same election now. Or next May. Any real Tory fans thi king strategically will realise that the main battle next May is still Tory/Labour. So, if you support Tories, do you vote Tory in that seat and see Labour win, helping yo put Miliband in power? Or, perhaps, do you vote UKIP, not because you want UKIP but because one less Labour seat makes Tory government at Westminster more likely. If 500 of those 2500 Tiry votes had gone UKIP, Labour would have lost.

    Which brings me to one of the non-EU reasons I might vote UKIP - to get my local candidates, Tory and Labour, tp pay more flaming attention to their constityents, to shake up the fat and lazy, cozy conspiracy where Tory and Labour hand the reigns of power back and forth every few years, and where both kargely ignore voters, certainly other than when they come cap in hand, smiling and kissing babies, every five years. I want to give the smug, patronising little turds a flaming good scare. That alone, in this highly marginal seat, is a good reason to vote UKIP - to break up the two-party compkacency and get a local MP to start listening to the people he or she is supposed to represent.

    The dismissive way you've twice now dismissed UKIP voters m7sses a couple of major points. First, UKIP's success SO FAR has both Laboyr and Tory leaderships scrabbling around trying to work out what to do about it. Well, good. That alone is a victory for people over politicians.

    Second, UKIP are taking voters from Tory, from Labour and from non-voters. Who would have believed ANY political party could pull that off, could seduce large numbers from historically both Labour and Tory heartlands, and the terminally disenchanted. It should tell you that, never mind policies, UKIP are hitting a chord with lots of people utterly fed up with the status quo.

    Think about that Euro election result. When was the last time any UK national election was won by anybody other than Labour or Tory? IIRC, it was 1904. 110 years.

    And the last opinion poll (granted, just one poll) put Tory and Labour neck and neck on 30%, and UKIP on 19%. UKIP have also been getting a substantial increase in donated funding, such that they now look capable of seriously funding and fighting their top 100 target seats, instead of the top 20 they had been planning. And there's still several months to go.

    UKIP certainly have the Tory leadership reacting to them. I wouldn't be at all surprised if Cameron's hard-line stance on this £1.7bn EU charge wasn't largely about UKIP supporters, and trying to tempt some back. Ditto Labour. Do they DARE pay it, or support paying it? Right before not only a very controversial by-election, but a few months before a General Election?

    Both parties can predict how well-received paying it will be with the people, in large part because the politicians have avoided giving us a say in joining or not. Both parties are running scared of UKIP, because they KNOW, from recent by-election results, that UKIP are very capable of takings seats of noth of them. That alone is one hoid reason to vote UKIP - to get Tory and Labour leadership to pay attention to us instead of just paying us lip-service. Threaten an MPs seat, his/her job, their passport to their position of power and privilege, especially for ministers, and you couldn't get their more rapt and undivided attention if you had their gonads in a vice and were closing the jaws. And if you have MPs and minister's attention, they'll ensure you have the party leadership's full attention too.

    There are many reasons for voting UKIP, not least that you consider it the least worst option. And a very significant proportion of the population appear more than willing to do jyst that. They aren't all ignorant and uneducated idiots that don't know any better.

    Maybe it's as simple as wanting a referendum, and having had several decades of not getting one by voting any other way. Or maybe it's one of a lot of other reasons.

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