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Thread: stamp duty overhaul

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    Re: stamp duty overhaul

    Quote Originally Posted by ik9000 View Post
    it's not nimbys. It's dumb ass councils preventing readily developed BROWNFIELD sites currently full of derelict office buildings from being redeveloped because they don't want to lose "commercial areas" despite the fact no-one is using them anyway. I could show you several places around London within the tube zones where large scale developments could go, but councils are blocking them. It is also the farce of letting people buying for "investment" be that overseas investors or buy to let maniacs ahead of normal people who just want somewhere to live. In a housing shortage there ought to be a priority system to home grown buyers who are paying their taxes over rich foreigners pricing everybody else out.
    ik9000, I have no idea where you've got your information from but London is losing industrial land at an alarming rate. What you define as derelict sites may well be hosting valuable businesses. My local council and the GLA made a similar mistake when they assessed a piece of land in my local area to host a tram depot as part of the Crossriver tram project. Fortunate for us, a local campaign helped safeguarded local businesses. Now the area is featured regularly in newspapers and magazines as a place to visit.

    I fully agree with you about overseas investors buying real estate in London which exacerbates the housing crisis and the proliferation of tall buildings that ruins our skyline. There is the issue of social cleansing in the northern part of my local borough. In fact, social cleansing is happening in other parts of London as well.

    Not sure where you got the idea that all councils are against tubes. Currently there is a Bakerloo extension consultation in my local area where the route is likely to pass through two Labour controlled local authorities and one Tory local authority. The Tory local authority is against the idea as it means losing their rail service but the two Labour local authorities are broadly supportive of the extension. I doubt if TfL is considering other tube extensions as all of the lines are full to capacity. However, there is a suggestion that there may be a southern extension to the Victoria line once Crossrail 2 has been completed.

    As for stamp duty, I'd like to see its return to its original format. High stamp duty impedes freedom of movement and economic activity. While it's argued stamp duty raises a certain amount of money, the Treasury would have received the money anyway through economic activity in my opinion. The purpose of raising stamp duty was to stop rising house prices but we all know this has failed and the stamp duty thresholds has not kept pace with house price inflation.

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    Re: stamp duty overhaul

    Top Gun I'm not against tubes. I said within the tube zones. I.e. within zones 1-6. Particularly zone 3-4. And the land is not valuable industrial land. NO-ONE is using old 50s-70s ribbon windowed brick factory buildings in the areas I'm talking about. There is no demand. They are too far from the economic centres and infrastructure routes. Instead they sit empty with squatters trashing what is left and ripping out the copper cables. And it isn't just in London, though that is mainly where I deal with. Far better to build houses on them and not on green field.

    Tube extensions are expensive, particularly going south because of the ground strata that way. More surface gravels and silts and less clay, further out you hit the chalks. There were plans to extend the picadilly south in the 60s/70s. they even built the linking platforms at aldwych though how far south is unclear. Possibly just to waterloo. Now they are most likely to link Aldwych into the DLR maybe. There were also plans to build a deeper northern line with fewer stops and faster trains, but after building a load of the stations they pulled the plug. Its unclear how much of this was due to cost and how much due to its secondary function as atomic shelters being made redundant by the power of the H bomb. Scale model tests in Canada showed the thing would offer no real protection to those! The bits that were built now house a variety of stuff, from archives to undergound switch rooms, and the like.

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    Re: stamp duty overhaul

    ik9000, I know you're not against tubes. What you actually said all councils were against tubes. I've simply made a statement to say this isn't true after hearing your bizzare reasoning.

    I'm well connected with other community planning groups in London so I'd say my understanding of the issues is that much greater than yours. There is evidence of some land owners are deliberately running down industrial land as they know they can make money a killing on building homes at the expense of having a sustainable community. There has to be a balance on industrial land so that people have somewhere to work and facilities to serve the local population and businesses. I would gladly support legislation to take land from these selfish owners and bring it back to community usage.

    London has a particular problem with land banking. Planning permissions have been granted to 200,000 applications but these land owners are simply banking the land and in turn worsening the housing crisis.

    Also, your understanding of building tubes is out of date. The proposed Bakerloo extension will involved drilling through London clay. Modern TBMs are capable of drilling through clay.
    Last edited by Top_gun; 05-12-2014 at 12:36 AM. Reason: Removed a question mark

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    Re: stamp duty overhaul

    Quote Originally Posted by Top_gun View Post
    ik9000, I know you're not against tubes. What you actually said all councils were against tubes.
    No, that is not what I wrote at all. You are quite wrong, and I have already clarified this once before.


    Quote Originally Posted by Top_gun View Post
    I've simply made a statement to say this isn't true after hearing your bizzare reasoning.
    see above. The only bizarre reasoning is yours.



    Quote Originally Posted by Top_gun View Post
    I'm well connected with other community planning groups in London so I'd say my understanding of the issues is that much greater than yours.
    You have no knowledge of my understanding, and it is arrogant to say your "connection" with planning groups is greater than mine when you do not know the facts on which to make such a statement.


    Quote Originally Posted by Top_gun View Post
    There is evidence of some land owners are deliberately running down industrial land as they know they can make money a killing on building homes at the expense of having a sustainable community. There has to be a balance on industrial land so that people have somewhere to work and facilities to serve the local population and businesses. I would gladly support legislation to take land from these selfish owners and bring it back to community usage.
    What evidence? present it. While this may occur, I can also take you to several sights where the owner is trying to develop them and being blocked by the council.

    Quote Originally Posted by Top_gun View Post
    London has a particular problem with land banking. Planning permissions have been granted to 200,000 applications but these land owners are simply banking the land and in turn worsening the housing crisis.
    Not everyone is land banking. It often takes 2 years to get through planning on moderately large scheme, more for really big ones. The Heygate estate and surrounding sister projects have taken the best part of 15 years to get through plannnig. One mans land banking is another mans planning struggle. They are finally on site now though.



    Quote Originally Posted by Top_gun View Post
    Also, your understanding of building tubes is out of date. The proposed Bakerloo extension will involved drilling through London clay. Modern TBMs are capable of drilling through clay.
    Really? Again, my understanding is "out of date"? Did the ground suddenly change while I wasn't looking? Did thousands of years of geological history just turn on a whimsy? Either my understanding is wrong or it's right. It can't be out of date. And I stated the difficulties lied with GRAVELS AND SILTS, then further out CHALKS. Again, try actually reading my posts.

    By the way, take a guess what my job is before you try to advise me on building tube tunnels. Seriously take a long hard guess. TBMs love clay. It's a lot harder in gravels and chalks. If you really ask me nicely I might let you to see one in action.


    Right, that is as much I can care to respond to your rude and spurious post, mainly for the benefit of anyone else reading this thread.

    I am now blocking your posts like I considered doing a few months ago. I gave you the benefit of the doubt then, but I see you are continuing to not read posts properly, and still arrogantly dismiss others just as before. I am now convinced you are not interested in sensible conversations, and am mindful of the Proverb "Like grasping water with the hand is trying to reason with a fool."

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    Re: stamp duty overhaul

    Quote Originally Posted by ik9000 View Post
    It's a lot harder in gravels and chalks. If you really ask me nicely I might let you to see one in action.
    Is it just me thinking "Now that sounds like a day out"?

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    Re: stamp duty overhaul

    Quote Originally Posted by ik9000 View Post
    No, that is not what I wrote at all. You are quite wrong, and I have already clarified this once before.
    Don't bother, it's not worth it, it's like playing chess with a chicken so to speak...

    (also can I see a TBM )
    throw new ArgumentException (String, String, Exception)

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    Re: stamp duty overhaul

    Quote Originally Posted by ik9000 View Post
    No, that is not what I wrote at all. You are quite wrong, and I have already clarified this once before.
    It seems your original remark has disappeared.

    Quote Originally Posted by ik9000 View Post
    see above. The only bizarre reasoning is yours.
    I doubt it.

    Quote Originally Posted by ik9000 View Post
    You have no knowledge of my understanding, and it is arrogant to say your "connection" with planning groups is greater than mine when you do not know the facts on which to make such a statement.
    God forbid, I do not ever want to have your understanding of matters. Yes, I do have connections with planning groups and the information is of very high quality, greater understanding of issues and have political and academic links.


    Quote Originally Posted by ik9000 View Post
    What evidence? present it. While this may occur, I can also take you to several sights where the owner is trying to develop them and being blocked by the council.
    I don't have the exact locations but the information was presented as square metres by a planning academic about a year ago. As for "several sights" rather it should read "several sites" there are local planning policies to protect some industrial land of strategic importance.

    Quote Originally Posted by ik9000 View Post
    Not everyone is land banking. It often takes 2 years to get through planning on moderately large scheme, more for really big ones. The Heygate estate and surrounding sister projects have taken the best part of 15 years to get through plannnig. One mans land banking is another mans planning struggle. They are finally on site now though.
    Here's London Councils talking about the issues of land banking http://www.londoncouncils.gov.uk/new...il.htm?pk=1672 .

    It seems you're very confused over the Heygate estate. Land Lease was signed up as a developer for the Heygate Estate in 2010. Then you have to allow time for evictions and CPOs. That is not the same as planning struggles.

    I know Southwark Council very well and know many of the planners on first name terms. Unfortunately their consultation processes are very long and drawn out affair and it's apparent you're confusing the consultation process with the planning application process.

    Quote Originally Posted by ik9000 View Post
    Really? Again, my understanding is "out of date"? Did the ground suddenly change while I wasn't looking? Did thousands of years of geological history just turn on a whimsy? Either my understanding is wrong or it's right. It can't be out of date. And I stated the difficulties lied with GRAVELS AND SILTS, then further out CHALKS. Again, try actually reading my posts.

    By the way, take a guess what my job is before you try to advise me on building tube tunnels. Seriously take a long hard guess. TBMs love clay. It's a lot harder in gravels and chalks. If you really ask me nicely I might let you to see one in action.
    Better tell TfL with your knowledge then. There is a Bakerloo consultation happening now and ending on 7 December. http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-29422425

    And the area where the extension is passing through is London clay. I very much doubt you're an expert in these matters. Surely someone with an Engineering background ought to know the difference between "sights" and "sites".

    Quote Originally Posted by ik9000 View Post
    Right, that is as much I can care to respond to your rude and spurious post, mainly for the benefit of anyone else reading this thread.

    I am now blocking your posts like I considered doing a few months ago. I gave you the benefit of the doubt then, but I see you are continuing to not read posts properly, and still arrogantly dismiss others just as before. I am now convinced you are not interested in sensible conversations, and am mindful of the Proverb "Like grasping water with the hand is trying to reason with a fool."
    Frankly, you've told me. Like telling me to visit several sights LOL.

    ETA: I only responded to your earlier post as it reminded of a talk given by someone in the Charlton area where some people would talk about developing land into homes and retail without realising what the existing industries were providing valuable services to the rest of London. Fascinating stuff but I very much doubt you'd understand it with your simplistic reasoning skills.
    Last edited by Top_gun; 05-12-2014 at 04:45 PM.

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    Re: stamp duty overhaul

    Quote Originally Posted by Top_gun View Post
    ... but I very much doubt you'd understand it with your simplistic reasoning skills.
    Stop doing that, or I'll stop you. That's not the way we talk here, and you should know it. If it carries on, and I have to review the thread to see who started it, I'll suspend anybody, on either end, that's lobbing insults.

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    Re: stamp duty overhaul

    Sorry, the statement was not intended as an insult but to highlight why they think in the way they do. I've seen it time and time again, especially in my local area, where you'll get people who feel they're on a crusade to clean up their local area only to discover they lack understanding of planning matters, businesses offering value to the community and buildings meriting architectural interest. A local building, assume derelict by people who should have known better (Southwark & GLA), was actually hosting a large number of valuable enterprises.

    As for the TBMs cutting through clay, it's widely known that TBMs are capable of cutting through London clay so I'm extremely surprised by iK9000 statement and his claim. Crossrail uses two types of TBMs. One type capable of cutting through London clay.



    TfL often cited London clay as a reason for not extending the tube into SE London but the argument is no longer valid due to the advancement of TBMs.

    I may have a video, buried in thousands of emails, how a senior British tunnelling expert managed to tunnel through difficult subterranean in other parts of the world. Not sure where the video is as I watched it a few years ago.

    I think the difficulty for iK9000 is that he's against someone who is very knowledgeable. Hence his swift exit from discussions while giving out disparaging personal remarks.

    Councils nowadays are very pro development as they know they can obtain a large amount of money from section 106s and Community Infrastructure Levy. It is these two funding mechanisms which are accelerating the loss of industrial land. So it's very rare for industrial land not being converted to housing unless there's a very good reason. As for tube extensions, TfL (with Treasury agreement) and not councils have the final say if there's going to be an extension.
    Last edited by Top_gun; 05-12-2014 at 08:36 PM. Reason: ETA: last para

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    Re: stamp duty overhaul

    Ok, managed to find the video where the British tunnelling expert gives a lecture. Note his credentials and experience.

    http://royalsociety.tv/rsPlayer.aspx?presentationid=355

    Here's some more information on the Crossrail TBMs and in particular the unusual cutting face which helps it to cut through clay. http://www.londonreconnections.com/2...rossrail-tbms/
    Last edited by Top_gun; 05-12-2014 at 08:59 PM. Reason: added more info on Crossrail TBMs

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    Re: stamp duty overhaul

    Quote Originally Posted by TheAnimus View Post
    (also can I see a TBM )
    There you go:



    They can tunnel through clay you know!

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    Re: stamp duty overhaul

    Here's some more info on the Crossrail TBMs where most of machines are specific to cutting through London clay.

    http://www.crossrail.co.uk/construct...ling-machines/

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    Re: stamp duty overhaul

    Quote Originally Posted by Top_gun View Post
    Here's some more info on the Crossrail TBMs where most of machines are specific to cutting through London clay.

    http://www.crossrail.co.uk/construct...ling-machines/
    It seemed quite clear to me that ik9000 said that tunneling through gravel and silts was the problem. Really, we all seem to be in agreement that tunneling clay isn't a problem. Can we go back to poking politicians please?

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    Re: stamp duty overhaul

    It wasn't clear to me DWL but I'm happy to move on.

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    Re: stamp duty overhaul

    Quote Originally Posted by Top_gun View Post
    Sorry, the statement was not intended as an insult but to highlight why they think in the way they do. I've seen it time and time again, especially in my local area, where you'll get people who feel they're on a crusade to clean up their local area only to discover they lack understanding of planning matters, businesses offering value to the community and buildings meriting architectural interest.

    ....
    It may not have been intended, but then, I suggest a little more attention to exactly what was said, to how you phrase it.

    I only responded to your earlier post as it reminded of a talk given by someone in the Charlton area where some people would talk about developing land into homes and retail without realising what the existing industries were providing valuable services to the rest of London. Fascinating stuff but I very much doubt you'd understand it with your simplistic reasoning skills.
    I am certainly not going to even try to arbitrate on who knows what, or who's right. You two can settle that between you, or not bother. But if you do carry on, it better be without snippy remarks about not "understanding it" due to "simplistic reasoning skills".

    This thread has been a bit tart in tone, several times, and I'd rather not step in, but that remark forces me to draw a line to prevent it getting even tarter.

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    Re: stamp duty overhaul

    Quote Originally Posted by Saracen View Post
    I am certainly not going to even try to arbitrate on who knows what, or who's right. You two can settle that between you, or not bother. But if you do carry on, it better be without snippy remarks about not "understanding it" due to "simplistic reasoning skills".

    This thread has been a bit tart in tone, several times, and I'd rather not step in, but that remark forces me to draw a line to prevent it getting even tarter.
    I thought the remark was the right thing to say in context to my experience & knowledge and iK9000's responses. To strip out the context means another unfair decision towards me. Nor do I expect anyone to arbitrate unless they are able to replicate my experience and knowledge in planning matters relating to London. I shall heed your warning and tread more carefully than usual as it seems my smallest comment attracts attention while other people gets away with their more personal comments towards me.

    iK9000 gave a link to the wiki page for the Heygate Estate as evidence for slow planning process. The reality is that its developer, Land Lease, as yet to submit a full planning application for the site. I know one local site where a developer got full planning consent to build 333 homes 18 months ago but has yet to lay the first brick. The site was fully cleared of housing stock about five years ago so there's no reason why building works couldn't start. The stamp duty overhaul is a white Elephant in providing affordable housing in London since the duty is only a small amount as a proportion of overall cost of housing. As I said before, land banking is one of the main reasons for rise in London's house prices. We're not building homes quickly enough to meet a rising population and that is nothing to do with the planning process.

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