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Thread: Are there any open source devs here that make a living from it?

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    ZaO
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    Are there any open source devs here that make a living from it?

    I sometimes find myself talking in communities that always bang on about how good open source software is. I understand some of the points, and I really love the whole idea of it (and use some of it sometimes). But I don't really understand how anyone could make a living from it. Does anyone here make a decent living from it, without needing another source of income? If so, is it just from donations?? What are your opinions on Open Source software? Sometimes I feel it's the people who just want everything for free all the time who praise it the most. But, maybe I'm missing something here.. If anyone replies - thanks for your time

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    Senior Member Peter Parker's Avatar
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    Re: Are there any open source devs here that make a living from it?

    Am I an open source dev? No. At most I submit the odd github pull request once in a while.

    Do I make a living from it? Sort of ... I make a living from using it, not developing it. Not quite what you meant I suspect. Most of the tools I use and libraries/frameworks/languages I work with are OSS. Modern IT would be vastly worse off without OSS.

    The OpenSSL heartbleed bug exposed the poor funding for OSS devs, and more recently there was a story recently about Werner Koch, the developer and maintainer of GPG who was struggling to get by. The article finally shamed a few big companies into coughing up.

    The only few people I met that seemed to do OK were the authors of some Java test frameworks (JMock and Concordion), but they predominantly earn money from consulting, with the OSS code being a strong marketing tool.

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    Seething Cauldron of Hatred TheAnimus's Avatar
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    Re: Are there any open source devs here that make a living from it?

    Most of those I know who brag about it, have an almost religious, ideological zeal.

    I've hired a friend of mine, he has made a couple of moderately popular (3M+ downloads) open source projects, he has made almost, but not quite, bugger all from that.

    The issue with OSS, is that it relies on people doing work, without being paid, that's fine if they are rich, if they have people who realise their value. But you need only look at something like BSD contirbutions from Whatsapp, the highest ever, despite the fact Apple just took it as their base, but contributed back in that project sod all.

    Sure you get some good examples, like WebKit, Chrome and Apple duking it out. But it's often bad when it's like that.

    What's important is who is behind something. If their interests are aligned with yours. People often spout nonsense about OSS, that it has no security bugs, because everyone can read the code, this is demonstrably not true. Some say it's the extensible nature, anyone can fork it. This demonstrates a lack of experience or understanding, but code extensibility, is something that has to be designed in, SOLID principles and the like help, but to be able to have different release cycles and such divisions have to be made. Having source code is not required. In fact, often documentation is better, in too many projects, source code is taken as somehow enough. This falls apart with fast moving, and or complex projects.

    So no, everyone I know in the FOSS movement is kind of poor, because I don't know any of the superstars.
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  4. #4
    ZaO
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    Re: Are there any open source devs here that make a living from it?

    Quote Originally Posted by Peter Parker View Post
    Am I an open source dev? No. At most I submit the odd github pull request once in a while.

    Do I make a living from it? Sort of ... I make a living from using it, not developing it. Not quite what you meant I suspect. Most of the tools I use and libraries/frameworks/languages I work with are OSS. Modern IT would be vastly worse off without OSS.

    The OpenSSL heartbleed bug exposed the poor funding for OSS devs, and more recently there was a story recently about Werner Koch, the developer and maintainer of GPG who was struggling to get by. The article finally shamed a few big companies into coughing up.

    The only few people I met that seemed to do OK were the authors of some Java test frameworks (JMock and Concordion), but they predominantly earn money from consulting, with the OSS code being a strong marketing tool.
    Thanks for the reply. So basically, it can be a way to get you noticed and lead onto other things?

    Quote Originally Posted by TheAnimus View Post
    Most of those I know who brag about it, have an almost religious, ideological zeal.

    I've hired a friend of mine, he has made a couple of moderately popular (3M+ downloads) open source projects, he has made almost, but not quite, bugger all from that.

    The issue with OSS, is that it relies on people doing work, without being paid, that's fine if they are rich, if they have people who realise their value. But you need only look at something like BSD contirbutions from Whatsapp, the highest ever, despite the fact Apple just took it as their base, but contributed back in that project sod all.

    Sure you get some good examples, like WebKit, Chrome and Apple duking it out. But it's often bad when it's like that.

    What's important is who is behind something. If their interests are aligned with yours. People often spout nonsense about OSS, that it has no security bugs, because everyone can read the code, this is demonstrably not true. Some say it's the extensible nature, anyone can fork it. This demonstrates a lack of experience or understanding, but code extensibility, is something that has to be designed in, SOLID principles and the like help, but to be able to have different release cycles and such divisions have to be made. Having source code is not required. In fact, often documentation is better, in too many projects, source code is taken as somehow enough. This falls apart with fast moving, and or complex projects.

    So no, everyone I know in the FOSS movement is kind of poor, because I don't know any of the superstars.

    Well I never actually understood what seems to be one of the main arguments for open source, in my experience. How exactly is software more secure when everyone can see the code? Doesn't that make it easier to know what it takes to break it? I understand that it means anyone can look at it and find problems with it, but still.. (I'm not a programmer myself btw. So I don't understand this stuff on a high level).

    I just find that a lot of these people I talk to also think that them pirating all the media they consume doesn't harm anyone. They always come out with the "free promotion" argument on that one.. Anyway, not bash anyone! But I was really just wondering if it was coincidently that type of person I happened to be speaking to all the time. I wondered if that's what the majority of the Open Source scene is, or whether there was another side to it.. The funny thing about the people I've spoken to, is that they say pirating doesn't cause any harm, but then they can never answer how these Open Source devs can actually make a living from the free software they produce lol..

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    Almost Ex-HEXUS Staff Jonatron's Avatar
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    Re: Are there any open source devs here that make a living from it?

    There have been some funded kickstarters for open source development. Here are two that I know about:
    https://www.kickstarter.com/projects...st-framework-3
    https://www.kickstarter.com/projects...ons-for-django

    And I know there's been plenty more. It's definitely an interesting way to get open source development done.
    There are also plenty of companies that employ people to work on open source projects.

  6. #6
    ZaO
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    Re: Are there any open source devs here that make a living from it?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jonatron View Post
    There have been some funded kickstarters for open source development. Here are two that I know about:
    https://www.kickstarter.com/projects...st-framework-3
    https://www.kickstarter.com/projects...ons-for-django

    And I know there's been plenty more. It's definitely an interesting way to get open source development done.
    There are also plenty of companies that employ people to work on open source projects.
    Interesting. Thanks

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    Now 100% Apple free cheesemp's Avatar
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    Re: Are there any open source devs here that make a living from it?

    A colleague of mine provides a large Windows .NET opensource library. He makes little to no money from it however its used in a lot of major .NET projects (including our products). Where it has been useful for is: 1) Consultancy work - He's had a few offers of work outside of his regular work. This required agreement from the boss but had made him a little money. 2) Job offers - He's had at least one really tempting job offer on the back of the framework. The offer was matched so he stayed but it was a useful earner for him.

    I know he gets a lot of grumpy support requests telling him his product is poor, he should do x, y and z or why his product doesn't work (hint - its usually their code and if it isn't he fixes it promptly rarely with a thank you).

    Doesn't seem worth it to me but he enjoys coding so keeps it going. (I believe he makes more from his pluralsight video courses!)
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    root Member DanceswithUnix's Avatar
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    Re: Are there any open source devs here that make a living from it?

    Quote Originally Posted by ZaO View Post
    The funny thing about the people I've spoken to, is that they say pirating doesn't cause any harm, but then they can never answer how these Open Source devs can actually make a living from the free software they produce lol..
    Those are called freeloaders (if you are being polite) and have nothing to do with open source.

    I work as a programmer in the usual way of a company hired me. In the past I have had problems with open source software, so I fix it and send in a patch or just help debug it.

    You may be aware of the old quote from Isaac Newton "If I have seen further it is by standing on the shoulders of giants."
    There is an old joke: "Programmers can see so far because they are standing on the feet of giants". And really, there is a long tradition of people having to re-invent the wheel over and over again rather than being able to truly build on the work of others, instead just re-using a few scraps where possible. Every new environment and programming language for as far back as FORTRAN has claimed improved code re-use and better code portability between platforms, and the claim always falls short though I suppose has slowly moved along.

    So the promise of open source is that you actually can re-use stuff, as long as you contribute back. It is idealistic, and because of that it doesn't always work, but when it does work my word the power of collaboration is impressive. The biggest examples I see are data centres. Non techies seem to assume they run Windows but I have seen very little in big data centres. Some run AIX, occasionally other Unix flavours, but most these days run Linux. That isn't down to any idealism, just down to the systems being easier to maintain with decent performance. Most seem to run RedHat, so you can't even claim it is cheap as those support contracts cost quite a lot.

    Back to your original question, I know precisely one dev who makes a living from open source and that is only because he works for RedHat. Most incorporate bits of open source into their work where it helps, contribute where they can.

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    Now 100% Apple free cheesemp's Avatar
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    Re: Are there any open source devs here that make a living from it?

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    Senior Member Peter Parker's Avatar
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    Re: Are there any open source devs here that make a living from it?

    Quote Originally Posted by ZaO View Post
    Well I never actually understood what seems to be one of the main arguments for open source, in my experience. How exactly is software more secure when everyone can see the code? Doesn't that make it easier to know what it takes to break it? I understand that it means anyone can look at it and find problems with it, but still.. (I'm not a programmer myself btw. So I don't understand this stuff on a high level).
    Openness in security is a Good Thing. I believe that's an opinion shared by most experts (BTW I'm not one). Yes, it does make it easier to find things that break it, but that's the point. Create a security protocol, tool, library, whatever. Then show people and let peers and other experts crawl all over it, trying to rip it to pieces in the most brutal way. If anything survives... you're much more likely to be "secure". Closed security has time and again proven to be a terrible approach. Some examples :

    * Mifare RFID, as used in the London Oyster card, was cracked in 2008
    * Diebold voting machines, I think have a long history of vulnerabilities being exposed

    Even with a published standard, such as SSL, the theory might be secure, but the practical implementation can have bugs/holes. Security is Really Difficult. At least by being open you increase the chances of someone finding and exposing the flaws so that they can be fixed. Things get better in the long term.

    The alternative is often called "security by obscurity". It's not 100% wrong, but ... it is really. Definitely shouldn't be the main implementation of security. For example, by adopting this technique I might prevent attacks from simple scripts run by some teenager, but then the false sense of security could leave me wide open to the kinds of people who attend conferences like Defcon and laugh at your puny corporate firewall.

    Quote Originally Posted by ZaO View Post
    I just find that a lot of these people I talk to also think that them pirating all the media they consume doesn't harm anyone. They always come out with the "free promotion" argument on that one.. Anyway, not bash anyone! But I was really just wondering if it was coincidently that type of person I happened to be speaking to all the time. I wondered if that's what the majority of the Open Source scene is, or whether there was another side to it.. The funny thing about the people I've spoken to, is that they say pirating doesn't cause any harm, but then they can never answer how these Open Source devs can actually make a living from the free software they produce lol..
    I think this is a totally different issue, nothing to do with open source really. Some (many?) people just want everything for free. I knew someone who abhors film piracy because he made a living from that industry. He had no problems pirating Microsoft software and didn't see the hypocrisy. I offered to install Ubuntu for him, but he wanted Windows and wanted it free.

    For other media, people (including me) object to giving lots of money to big corporations. I'd rather pay directly to the creator of a work - music, software, or otherwise. I think we're seeing some changes in new ways of consuming media on the web. Steam for indie games, Kickstarter, Netflix, Vimeo ... Breaking the control of the big players creates options, lowers prices for customers, and gives more to the artist. Well, in some cases. It's not perfect in reality, but I'm being optimistic!

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    Re: Are there any open source devs here that make a living from it?

    I'm paid a decent wage to work full-time on open source.

  12. #12
    ZaO
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    Re: Are there any open source devs here that make a living from it?

    Interesting stuff, guys! Thanks very much for your contributions to my open source thread here! But, as the nature of this thread is open source, I'm afraid none of you will be paid for your contributions lol....

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    The late but legendary peterb - Onward and Upward peterb's Avatar
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    Re: Are there any open source devs here that make a living from it?

    RedHat seem to make their money from the support and deployment contracts, as Danceswithunix stated. But you can get the source code and implement it yourself, or use the cutting edge Fedora distributions which are sponsored by RH, and elements eventually find their way into thir enterprise products.

    Much is made of the peer review aspect, particularly security as peter Parker referred to.

    This is fine in theory, but is only valid IF the code is peer reviewed and the quality of the code lends itself to peer review. By quality, I don't mean the actual execution, but the documentation and functional description, comments and so on. It is one thing to write a few hundred lines of clever code, but unless it is well documented, it can be very difficult to see what is happening.

    The shell shock vulnerability discovered last year existed for about 20 years in a fundamental part of the *nix environment. Clearly that hadn't been (adequately) peer reviewed.

    Truecrypt, a security application, has attracted controversy last year, and that has not been resolved.

    On the other hand, developments like SELINUX probably have been peer reviewed, not least by Government Agencies where security is an important consideration.

    Open source is good, but it doesn't do to get too starry eyed about it, it has pros and cons.
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