Why are moderator actions above scrutiny?

[abaxas]

I'm curious why discussion on mod action is allowed on most forums but not on hexus?

This isn't a dig at anyone. It's more of a general question as I'd love to know the reasons why.

[Knoxville]

Actually there have been some occasions when moderator action and the criteria we look at before taking any action at all have been openly discussed on the boards. Quite often however that discussion can take over the particular thread in which a moderators decision is questioned by other members, taking the discussion in question way off topic and the thread can then quickly degenerate into a witch hunt or an excercise in personal grievances, at least in my experience.

Even in the event that one of us says that we have made a decision, it is final and that it is not up for debate in a particular thread that decision is scrutinised by the rest of the mod and admin team both before and after the fact. It is an exceptionally rare occurance that one of us makes a decision about something and that the rest of the mod or admin team is not involved, when one of us takes action it has been discussed extensively with the rest of the team first and the decision that is made is one that we all stand behind. I would go as far as to say that the only exceptions to that rule are when dealing with members that flagrantly spam to raise their post count, advertise or those that break the rules. In clear cut cases such as those one of us will often take the appropriate action and inform the rest of the team very shortly after the fact.

My advice, if you have any grievance at all with a decision made by a member of the moderating team would be to get in touch with them directly as we regard all members as ‘moderators’ to a certain extent in that we rely heavily on you to look at posts and bring any that you think are unsuitable to our attention, and we are all grateful for that inupt. It helps us maintain the tone of the forums that we think you want. We don't get complaints about the forums being over-moderated very often at all and in general I think and I certainly hope that we get things right but we all have an inbox if one of you feels we haven't regarding a particular situation.

[abaxas]

So basically moderators are free to do whatever they wish without public comeback?

Surely, they are servants of the customers, not the controllers of.

[Jonj1611]

I have edited this post as it looked like I was quoting out of context.

[Galant]

As a fellow peon/serf/peasant/'fellow of low social standing' I'd like to pitch in that I've never found the overlords act in any way removed from the stated laws of Hexusland. I know there have been some debates about certain actions in my time but I can't say that I thought a single one was unreasonable. On my own account I can say that when I've had a doubt or issue or complaint I've sent up a request to the high and lofty powers that be and have always been answered fairly and reasonably. Of all the boards I've spent time on Hexus, for me, is by far the kindest and best forum bar none and I feel that's in large part due to the overseers.

Having said all that, it doesn't answer your question, not technically, anyway. So to answer it directly, I'd say that if it were ever deemed that the Hexus halls of power were inhabited by overbearing, unjust ogres, I'd be saddened no doubt, I might even leave, but, I don't think I'd ever feel like I could complain. That's because Hexus, as far as I know, is and always has been a private endeavour in which we are permitted to participate at our own pleasure and will and we gain no rights in doing so. In a sense, the mods and admins are above the law by definition, at least as far as we're concerned. If there by a higher being in Hexusland, an owner, perhaps, who may recruit and dismiss his or her overlords as he or she sees fit, then that would, I imagine, be the law to which they are subject.

That's how I see it anyway.

Cheers for the good work mods and admins.

(PS - I'll have the protection money next Friday. I promise.)

[abaxas]

The madness of the situation, without mentioning it directly, is that if people could discuss the issue, you'd probably find the moderator was currently enjoying a medium/long ban for breaking forum rules and probably wouldn't be a mod anymore.

But we can't, so nothing will happen.

[Jonj1611]

The other problem here is how does the banned person make a complaint? Their PM's are non functioning so how exactly do they have the ability to make a complaint to another mod?

It's all very well saying that people can make complaints but not if they can't PM, which means they have to make a new account which according to the Mod Abuse thread in the Welcome section isn't allowed either so err how do they make a complaint.

For the most part I do find most mods very fair, however other times completely the opposite.

[abaxas]

For the most part I do find most mods very fair, however other times completely the opposite.

Well put.

[Disturbedguy]

Seems to me, the recent ban was the result of something originally external to forum which said person allowed to effect his or her modding.

Ban me or warn me if you wish, but the ban was wrong

[peterb]

Obviously I can't (and won't) discuss specific instances or personalities... That said...

Moderation ultimately comes down to a judgement call. The hard and fast rules are laid down in the FAQ, and in some of the stickies in GD. However, even those are subject to discretion as circumstances dictate.

In general we all take a strong line on spammers, and the vigilance of HEXUS members is invaluable in keeping the boards spam free.

Other issues are less clear cut. I take a stronger line than some on swearing, I find in 99% of the time I can substitute a better word without losing the meaning of a post and a careful edit sorts that out. Repeat offenders get a PM, after that....

Other moderators have slightly different tolerances of other issues. However it is fair to say that we do not tolerate personal abuse of any member, or posts that may be bring HEXUS into litigation, and as none of us are lawyers, we tend to err on the side of caution. Again, where the infringement is minor, a PM and/or post removal may suffice, in other blatant cases stronger sanctions may be applied.

As previously said, contentious decisions are rarely taken in isolation although moderators do have a lot of discretion. A suspended or banned member can email HEXUS staff to register a complaint, and that will be investigated.

Moderators are human though, and we don't always get it right. I have made decisions that In hindsight may not have been the best, and on occasions I have reversed them, usually of my own volition, occasionally as the result of a representation.

We try to be fair to all, sometimes we get it wrong.

For my own failures, I can only apologise and learn from my mistakes.

[Millennium]

Hexus is a forum that has a lot of history and I think it must be a beast to moderate.

Thanks for all the effort for the relevant people, right now...,.

[KeyboardDemon]

The madness of the situation, without mentioning it directly, is that if people could discuss the issue, you'd probably find the moderator was currently enjoying a medium/long ban for breaking forum rules and probably wouldn't be a mod anymore.

But we can't, so nothing will happen.

The way I have read, it seems to me that what started as a difference of opinion was escalated through the inconsiderate use of a single word in a fairly long(ish) post.

The other problem here is how does the banned person make a complaint? Their PM's are non functioning so how exactly do they have the ability to make a complaint to another mod?

It's all very well saying that people can make complaints but not if they can't PM, which means they have to make a new account which according to the Mod Abuse thread in the Welcome section isn't allowed either so err how do they make a complaint.

For the most part I do find most mods very fair, however other times completely the opposite.

I feel that if that person felt something was wrong about the way they were being responded to, then they should have raised that either with the other person involved in this particular instance or another mod, instead they provoked the situation through the use of that single word, as mentioned above in this post.

At the end of the day, there were two parties involved, and I do solemnly believe that if each party were to take a step back and look at their role in this each would see that a different approach would not have left things ending the way they did.

I think we are all capable of being idiots, and I would define an idiot in cases such as these (but possibly not this case in particular) as someone that retaliates when they feel that their pride or ego is being attacked and that pride and ego have a lot to be answered for, but sometimes we should take a breather before posting a retaliatory response to what we perceive as an attack.

[Biscuit]

[Saracen]

The other problem here is how does the banned person make a complaint? Their PM's are non functioning so how exactly do they have the ability to make a complaint to another mod?

It's all very well saying that people can make complaints but not if they can't PM, which means they have to make a new account which according to the Mod Abuse thread in the Welcome section isn't allowed either so err how do they make a complaint.

For the most part I do find most mods very fair, however other times completely the opposite.

If you are referring to a specific incident, then

1) The person in question said "reported". Therefore, it has already been referred to other mods.

2) Where a suspension (or ban, though in the likely particular incident, it IS a suspension not a ban) is imposed, it always generates a thread in the Mod room. This is for two purposes :-

a) notifies other mods.
b) provides a searchable record for the future.

So, other mods are aware.

3) When the ban lifts, anybody can then PM anybody, including other mods.

4) The contacts for HEXUS by email are all over the web page.

[Saracen]

Seems to me, the recent ban was the result of something originally external to forum which said person allowed to effect his or her modding.

Ban me or warn me if you wish, but the ban was wrong

No.

The ban was because a member not only broke forum rules by insulting me directly, but was told to apologise and then firstly, did not, and secondly, chose to "report" that as mod abuse, because an admin called him on it.

That is not only breaking forum rules. but a direct challenge to admin authority.

And THAT, by the way, is why it was "not for public discussion", and certainly not in that thread.

Let me make this VERY clear. Mod and admin decisions are NOT subject to public vote. I received my admin instructions directly from the forum owner, and he has both the ability and authority to remove it any time he wishes. Meantime, my brief is to exercise MY judgement, which is precisely what I will do, until such time as he either tells me different, or removes me.

The key word in there is "judgement".

And a thread descending into everybody expressing their view on whether a decision is right or not is first, utterly immaterial to the decision, secondly destroys the thread, and thirdly ends up with me spending a vast amount of my time explaining all this. Yet again.


Ultimately, it's simple. If members don't want to risk getting suspended, don't insult other members. If you do, you WILL be subject to mod or admin judgement on whether, and how, to deal with it.

Some comments here have suggested this was due to "external factors". Maybe. But all that means is that sometimes I might let an insult slide, sometimes not. In this case, an opportunity was offered to avoid that, and responded to by "reported". Well, THAT will not be tolerated by me, because it is a flagrant challenge to admin authority, and done in public.

All that member needed to do was withdraw that insult, and if he wished, PM another admin or the board owner directly. But no, he chose to challenge that authority directly, and publicly.

So again, my instructions from the board owner are to exercise judgement. And that judgement is that such a direct challenge to admin authority merits a suspension, AND that authority also extends to prohibiting discussion of it, at least in that thread. Anybody, anybody at all, can of course complain to the board owner. Time after time, in this "mod abuse" situation, I have called the board owner's attention my the alleged abuse myself, only to be told he supports my call. This time, I won't bother. But I did bring it to the other mods, and any of them can.

[Saracen]

The way I have read, it seems to me that what started as a difference of opinion was escalated through the inconsiderate use of a single word in a fairly long(ish) post.

....

At the end of the day, there were two parties involved, and I do solemnly believe that if each party were to take a step back and look at their role in this each would see that a different approach would not have left things ending the way they did. .....

On the first para, you would be wrong. It was :-

1) Calling me sanctimonious
2) Declining to withdraw an insult
3) Publicly challenging an admin decision with "reported".

On the second point, no, this would have ended with me doing precisely the same thing. Whether anyone else would or not is not the point. The point is my instruction for doing this job was to exercise judgement.

And there are many reasons why we, or indeed, I, do things the way we do.

One is to keep discussions here civil. Which, broadly, they are. However, from time to time, people forget that. Calling me sanctimonious for simply expressing an opinion on the topic of the thread goes beyond civil to insult, and to react as the person concerned did is not now and never will be accepted by me.

So, I made one of my periodic examples of someone that appears to have either forgotten, or ignored, our expectations of civil discussion.

Over the years of being an admin here, there have been many times where such comments have got out of hand between members, and I've ended up spending hour after hour after hour sorting it out, calming people down or, if necessary, yes suspending them. Once or twice, permanently banning them. And I, and the rest of the team, have spent many, many hours trying to ensure that environment where people do act civilly, and one way of doing that is periodic firm enforcement.

So no, and for reasons not always obvious, taking a step back would not and will not result in my taking a different action, which was to, first, offer a warning, and on it being ignored, suspend.

I've said before in situations like this, things are not always as they seem, and one reason it's not up for public discussion is not ALL the reasons for action are public. This is NOT a reference to any background with the member concerned, who as far as I'm concerned is otherwise issue-free, but that admin decisions are decisions based on judgement on a variety of issues and factors everyone else is not necessarily aware of, which is one reason why they aren't subject to public vote.


Now, having now spent about an hour explaining something I'm under no obligation to explain, not least because I've got other things going on and can't really spare the time, I'm probably going to have a load of people challenge even this rationale. Or I would if my next step wasn't to close this thread, because admin rulings AREN'T UP FOR PUBLIC DEBATE.

As a general ruling, until and unless the board owner changes his remit, we exercise our judgement as we see fit.

If ANYONE feels a mod/admin decision is abuse, report it to an admin, or the board owner.

If you feel the board owner's policy of giving us that authority is wrong, and that's not how these forums should be run, well, feel free to tell him he's wrong. I'll book a ringside seat.