So, Greece heading for Euro Ausgang, Sortie, Exit? Place your bets ...

[Galant]

Are many of those Germans still around? Or are we saying that you should be responsible for the sins of your father, as it were?

In fairness that's not the same. He's not saying that today's Germany must suffer or be punished for the mistakes of early 20th century Germany. He's saying that today's Germany should recognise how their current house was built and utilise the same plan that built it, or extend the same mercy.

[opel80uk]

Here's an interesting take on things from Thomas Piketty via Quartz, looking at German hypocrisy and calling for a European conference on handling all European debt.

Some snippets:

"Piketty: When I hear the Germans say that they maintain a very moral stance about debt and strongly believe that debts must be repaid, then I think: what a huge joke! Germany is the country that has never repaid its debts. It has no standing to lecture other nations.

…after the war ended in 1945, Germany’s debt amounted to over 200% of its GDP. Ten years later, little of that remained: public debt was less than 20% of GDP. Around the same time, France managed a similarly artful turnaround. We never would have managed this unbelievably fast reduction in debt through the fiscal discipline that we today recommend to Greece… Think about the London Debt Agreement of 1953, where 60% of German foreign debt was cancelled and its internal debts were restructured.

Die Zeit: Many Germans believe that the Greeks still have not recognized their mistakes and want to continue their free-spending ways.

Piketty: If we had told you Germans in the 1950s that you have not properly recognized your failures, you would still be repaying your debts. Luckily, we were more intelligent than that."

It's a fair point, but it should be noted that for a long while after the war, Germany was effectively occupied and as part of the debt relief, Germany had very stringent financial restraints imposed for quite a long period which set out what could and couldn't be spent, and on what.

That said, the point is valid – Germany appears to have short memories when it comes to their own history.

[ik9000]

France similarly had their war debt cancelled by the US, whereas Britain was made to re-pay hers in full! (The US had vested interests in helping economically collapse the British Empire so it could strengthen its influence) BBC did a great documentary on it a few years back. We sent some muppet economist to the states to negotiate a debt reduction. He played it wrong and we got njada.

[HalloweenJack]

France similarly had their war debt cancelled by the US, whereas Britain was made to re-pay hers in full! (The US had vested interests in helping economically collapse the British Empire so it could strengthen its influence) BBC did a great documentary on it a few years back. We sent some muppet economist to the states to negotiate a debt reduction. He played it wrong and we got njada.

got a link to that video?

[ik9000]

Not directly - too long ago to still be on iplayer, but I presume it is one of the ones referenced on the wiki page: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anglo-American_loan

BBC also did a separate look at Keynes on Money Masters - but don't think it was that one. http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b01mxpzv

[GuidoLS]

Are many of those Germans still around? Or are we saying that you should be responsible for the sins of your father, as it were?

There are many historical comparisons that could be made here. The US proved how well separate but equal worked. It doesn't. Either you are an equal partner, in all ways, or there is no equality.

While not a cause of WWII, the austerity that was fostered on Germany (granted, as payback for WWI) gave a short, badly moustachioed megalomaniac a hook to use on the German people to bring him first to power, and then to a war that wasted double digit percentages of populations. While I doubt Greece would go to war over this, or even be in a position to participate in any kind of effective warfare, the austerity can, and already has, caused the radicalization of parts of their populace. There was a very disturbing (to me) report on BBC America about the rise in the suicide rate in Greece since the austerity regulations have gone into effect. Eventually, there *will* be someone or some group that decides that they're going to take someone else with them. And I think that for Germany, as a country, to cause this is hypocrisy of the worst kind. And I find it somewhat uncomfortable that the rest of the EU fails to see the parallel, all because WWII was so 20th century.

I also find it interesting that now it's just Merkel playing hardball, and it's Hollande calling for compromise, after being such a hard *** on the topic.

So, should Germany be treated as guilty for the sins of their fathers? That's not an easy question - and it's not mine to answer. I will answer it this way, though - by any means necessary, they should not be allowed to REPEAT the sins of their fathers or grandfathers. And that includes not only military aggression, but financial aggression as well.

[kalniel]

So, should Germany be treated as guilty for the sins of their fathers? That's not an easy question - and it's not mine to answer. I will answer it this way, though - by any means necessary, they should not be allowed to REPEAT the sins of their fathers or grandfathers. And that includes not only military aggression, but financial aggression as well.

They nor anyone else.

So slightly ironic/worrying that the greek referendum had rather more in common with a certain popular german party actions some time ago.

[The Hand]

Armageddon delayed for five days (again):

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-33437797

Also the Chinese situation is still getting worse:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-33438416

[anacdahudee]

We sent some muppet economist to the states to negotiate a debt reduction. He played it wrong and we got njada.

I do hope your not talking about John Maynard Keynes. He tried so hard to get that loan from the US that he died 2 weeks after the end of the conference from a heart attack.

The last of our loan to the US from WW2 was paid during Tony Blair's government.

With the point of Germany's short term memory: that's partly the burden of history and post-war politics as was mentioned. Germany as a country was reset in 1945 and again in 1990 when the country was unified. At the end of the day each country is always going to look out for their own self interest, hence why we hold on to vetos and Germany lobbies and exerts its economical domination.

[peterb]

It was only last year that the final First World War loans were repaid (actually a government bond)

http://www.theguardian.com/money/201...debts-bonds-uk

[ik9000]

It was only last year that the final First World War loans were repaid (actually a government bond)

http://www.theguardian.com/money/201...debts-bonds-uk

wwII debts repaid in 2006 - the anglo american loan.

Keynes - while admittedly a clever guy - was a muppet in this instance. If we'd negotiated better the US would have struck off some of the debt. Instead of pointing to the tech we gave the US, the cost and sacrifice of standing alone against Hitler etc he appealed to "decency". Watch the BBC documentary. It goes into it in depth. It also didn't help he was on painkillers that acted like a truth serum (claimed here). Can't have helped!

[Spreadie]

- there should be no such thing as Greek or German debt, only Eurozone debt, backed absolutely by the united strength of the whole Eurozone.

That's the key point there isn't it? It'll never happen unless the members agree to a fiscal union, and that will never happen, because they all want to retain enough sovereignty to refuse objectionable policy from the centre.

[anacdahudee]

Watch the BBC documentary.

I dont perticularly trust BBC documentaries and prefer standard academic articles and research. They tend to bend the truth quite a bit, or persue the personal opinion of the perticular historian that is advising the documentary. Academic articles have to be vouched and peer reviewed. Maybe its because im from an academic background and academics still have a good opinion for Keynes, but I still think he did the best in the situation.

It was in America's interest to ensure the empire collapsed, the American population (based on opinion polling) was dead against giving a loan and the US had called in their loans almost immediatly, especially for Lend-Lease. Also not in our favour was the country was bankrupt and so our options were very limited, we had given up most of our bargaining chips through co-op war policies such as the Tizard Mission, and we had to not only finance the UK and its Empire, but the continued presence of UK forces in occupied Europe, as well as supporting the population of the British sector of Germany. A population that would balloon as the USSR evicted ethnic Germans into Western Sectors. In fact the main reason the UK managed to secure Marshall Aid was because we simply said we could not afford to keep our forces engaged in Europe and the rest of the world and so would be pulling them back to Britain.

This is all slightly tangent to the topic, but revelant in a way. I think the most we can do now is sit and wait for the result and deal with consequences either way.

[ik9000]

I dont perticularly trust BBC documentaries and prefer standard academic articles and research. They tend to bend the truth quite a bit, or persue the personal opinion of the perticular historian that is advising the documentary. Academic articles have to be vouched and peer reviewed. Maybe its because im from an academic background and academics still have a good opinion for Keynes, but I still think he did the best in the situation.

It was in America's interest to ensure the empire collapsed, the American population (based on opinion polling) was dead against giving a loan and the US had called in their loans almost immediatly, especially for Lend-Lease. Also not in our favour was the country was bankrupt and so our options were very limited, we had given up most of our bargaining chips through co-op war policies such as the Tizard Mission, and we had to not only finance the UK and its Empire, but the continued presence of UK forces in occupied Europe, as well as supporting the population of the British sector of Germany. A population that would balloon as the USSR evicted ethnic Germans into Western Sectors. In fact the main reason the UK managed to secure Marshall Aid was because we simply said we could not afford to keep our forces engaged in Europe and the rest of the world and so would be pulling them back to Britain.

This is all slightly tangent to the topic, but revelant in a way. I think the most we can do now is sit and wait for the result and deal with consequences either way.

but yet the US were willing to write off France's debt. And it is entirely due to trying to get the empire to collapse as I said. The loan terms were sufficient to achieve it.

[peterb]

but yet the US were willing to write off France's debt. And it is entirely due to trying to get the empire to collapse as I said. The loan terms were sufficient to achieve it.

And the lack of support during the Suz crisis didn't help either, loosening the British control on the Middle East...

[anacdahudee]

Have you got any source for french debt being totally written off? Closest I can come to is an article that both UK and France had some debt written off from lend-lease, whilst new loans and free money was granted through Marshall Aid. Can't find any figures for it though, apart from the amount received in direct Marshall Aid: UK using 3,297,000,000 and France 2,296,000,000. It may be the case that Britain chose not to pay off the debt and service intrest for much of the post-war period, whilst France was able to make more substantial payments.