Unofficial Hexus Brexit Straw Poll - In, Out, Undecided?

[peterb]

Our population density is greater than many European Nations. France for example has A population density about half that of the U.K.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List...lation_density

(It isn't clear if this calculated using useable land area or total land area, although it includes areas of water, so appears not to take into account areas that are not suitable for housing)


Moving on, interesting speech by Jean-Claude Junkers stating that "The EU has interfered too much in people's lives"

http://uk.reuters.com/article/uk-bri...-idUKKCN0XG2NF

A dawning realisation, or a cynical bit of spin?

[CAT-THE-FIFTH]

Our population density is greater than many European Nations. France for example has A population density about half that of the U.K.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List...lation_density

(It isn't clear if this calculated using useable land area or total land area, although it includes areas of water, so appears not to take into account areas that are not suitable for housing)

Which again is more down to countless governments concentrating wealth around a few key areas of the country and not simply building enough homes,since it would probably have deflated the housing market. As a result the UK has very uneven wealth distribution,and most of is concentrated right round London.

The UK has also suffered from repeated underinvestment in affordable transport in addtion to housing. Our power generation infrastructure is also increasingly ageing.

Moving on, interesting speech by Jean-Claude Junkers stating that "The EU has interfered too much in people's lives"

http://uk.reuters.com/article/uk-bri...-idUKKCN0XG2NF

A dawning realisation, or a cynical bit of spin?

It is called pandering. Our lot do it a lot!

It is like our lot saying we must save the economy. We need spending cuts,people need to get used to more austerity and cuts.

Then they decided to spend £300+ million bombing Libya just because they can.

Then if it were not for Snowdon,we would have NEVER KNOWN about Tempora.

The UK government was spying on everybody without the public knowing.

The same lot were going on at China about the "Great Firewall" and "Mass spying on their citizens",and now all of that has suddenly stopped.

People are so worried about the EU taking our freedoms,that they are still not taking our own lot to task for the mass 1984 like surveillance OUR OWN government is doing at this very moment.

You cannot even make it up.

[peterb]

Which again is more down to countless governments concentrating wealth around a few key areas of the country and not simply building enough homes,since it would probably deflated the housing market.

No, it isn't population density by city, it is by country, but doesn't take into account land areas unsuitable for housing. Nothing to do with 'concentrating wealth'.

[CAT-THE-FIFTH]

No, it isn't population density by city, it is by country, but doesn't take into account land areas unsuitable for housing. Nothing to do with 'concentrating wealth'.

Everything to do with - people complain about overcrowding in this country and if you do look at many of the comments online about why we should leave the EU,its to stop the "overcrowding" in this country due to all the people "swamping" this country from abroad. It is ONE of the most COMMON arguments why we should leave the EU.

Yet,look at the whole country - we have plenty of land which is available for settlement but look where most of the population is actually concentrated round - London and the richer parts of the country. Sucessive governments have not decentralised the countries wealth concentration(via creating jobs elsewhere) and they have not invested in enough housing or even improved transport and made it more affordable.

If you even look around Kent,you see ripples from London as people working there are moving deeper and deeper into other counties. It also means the people who live there are often pushed out of the same areas and due to the lack of jobs(unless you can get one in London),it leads to massive areas of real poverty - it is those people who tended to vote UKIP and so on.

But since you really want to think about average population density - plenty of countries like India and Sri Lanka have far greater density than the UK.

Plus Japan is ahead of us in the list - but in reality is FAR,FAR worse as most of the country is mountains and most of the population is concentrated round the coastal regions.

Edit!!

Another thing. Look at France - their cities are smaller in population size but massively more dense than say London.

Paris has 4 times the population density of London.

What we should have done in the UK is not enlarge London so much,but expanded the other regional cities more and invested in transport links over the last 50 years in a more organised way.

[peterb]

Not going to quote the whole post, but you might want to look at the development round Manchester airport, and HS2 is intended to improve communication between North and South, as well as improvments to regional transport.

[CAT-THE-FIFTH]

Not going to quote the whole post, but you might want to look at the development round Manchester airport, and HS2 is intended to improve communication between North and South, as well as improvments to regional transport.

I lived in London and Manchester so I know and its a step in the right direction but places like Bristol,Sheffield,etc have real problems.

This is something which should have been done with more gusto decades ago - Wales and the northern parts of England have enough space,and we really need to have more and more jobs moved out of London elsewhere. It is not sustainable longterm IMHO,and also if we develop other regional cities more it will at least help redistribute some more of the wealth to other parts of the country,and the added benefits of cheaper housing,bigger houses and a general improvement in people's working lives.

[Saracen]

But it's the blame game - the fact we have a referendum is enough to show people want to blame the EU for our issues. ....

Oh, no, I'm not letting you get away with that.

The fact that we have a referendum shows one thing and one thing ONLY. It shows that the strong vote for UKIP in the last EU elections scared the shorts clear off our esteemed PM, and the entire Bloomberg speech was about trying to mollify the eurosceptic element in his party, at least enough to not scrag his 2015 general election chances. It was about finally being forced to give the British people the chance to vote on the EU, something which to date we have never had, and which successive governments have been afraid to do since at least Maastricht, because of the Tory party division on the EU.

[CAT-THE-FIFTH]

Oh, no, I'm not letting you get away with that.

The fact that we have a referendum shows one thing and one thing ONLY. It shows that the strong vote for UKIP in the last EU elections scared the shorts clear off our esteemed PM, and the entire Bloomberg speech was about trying to mollify the eurosceptic element in his party, at least enough to not scrag his 2015 general election chances. It was about finally being forced to give the British people the chance to vote on the EU, something which to date we have never had, and which successive governments have been afraid to do since at least Maastricht, because of the Tory party division on the EU.

What getting away with? People have been bombarded with EU this and EU that stuff for the last 20 years by the mass media which has been owned by people who for most of that time have been Eurosceptic. That includes people like the Daily Express owner who supported ukip and even good old Rupert Murdoch who owns many UK media outlets who until very recently was also quite Eurosceptic.

I know people who work in market research and they actually saw how easy it was to change public perception of things depending on how much the media harped on things - it's blooming scary.

If people are told something is bad enough they will think that.

People talk about the Russian internet army. People like UKIP and the EU haters are the same.


Look at every article online in the comments - it is bombarded by the EU hating immigrant bashing lot.

I had a mate on G+ who is literally a nobody on social media who made a joke about the Pub Landlord guy standing against UKIP in Thanet. The amount of vitriol bombarded against him by the UKIP Internet army who ofc had to have a dig at the EU and ofc the immigrants.


And yes people wanted the referendum since the media wanted to hype up the EU superstate boogeyman.

Where are all the people wanting public referendums or consultations on all the far more important things?

Everbody harping on the EU superstate boogeyman will destroy our freedoms,destroy our economy and destroy our jobs.

Yet apparently we don't need the EU bureaucrats to do that.

If people put as much effort into trying to leave the EU into actually making sure our politicians didn't screw up so often we might actually start to solve some if our problems.

But that is far harder and we would need to ask some more serious questions in this country and far more soul searching.

Yet as I showed so many times the British public need to be more worried about our politicians and their poor decision making.

Nobody is getting worked up enough to asked for our own lot to be taken to task.

They are very happy to be seen to do something while actually doing nothing. This is classic political deflection tactics - they get people worked up on things so they ignore all the far more important problems.

In or out it makes no difference since all the same lot will be making the same lot and if there is no EU superstate boogeyman to blame,it will shift elsewhere and we know where.

Every time when there are economic problems governments use the same deflection tactics and people act in similar ways - "us" vs "them".

They are the ones who helped cause the current migrant crisis which is destabilising Europe - maybe the EU needs to have a referendum on whether the UK should be part of the EU. Our lot even admitted Libya was a disaster.

Cause where I see it we are causing multiple countries and people's huge strain due to us prancing around showing off we are a great world power.

Then at the point Europe needs the MOST soladarity we have a referendum in deciding on whether we should do the opposite and run away from a problem we helped cause.


Everbody is going on about how the EU superstate boogeyman is causing or will cause the UK xyz problems but not a single person has asked how many problems WE have caused the EU.
Even people talking about us joining the EU in the first place as being a mistake forget it was preceded by closer and closer cooperation in multiple areas on the decades before. It wasn't a sudden let's be one with Europe move.

Even the Scottish referendum I felt that we should working together not running off from each other since it is better IMHO we stand together united.

I have said all what I said in this thread to even pretty Eurosceptic people in real life ,Saracen and even though I do agree a lot of times on what you say this is not one of them.

I am unlikely to change my viewpoints on all of this so we will need to agree to disagree.

[peterb]

Well, if we are causing so much bother to the EU, perhaps it is better that we leave

However, the Eurocrats are really scared that if the UK does leave, it will prompt a popular uprising against the EU in other countries, particularly Italy and Greece who perceive their problems to be in caused in part by the EU.

[CAT-THE-FIFTH]

Well, if we are causing so much bother to the EU, perhaps it is better that we leave

However, the Eurocrats are really scared that if the UK does leave, it will prompt a popular uprising against the EU in other countries, particularly Italy and Greece who perceive their problems to be in caused in part by the EU.

It is not even that - its the arrogance in this country that nobody has asked what we have done to hurt the EU,instead it is all about the EU Superstate boogeyman causing us problems.

It also shows this is not "Great" Britain anymore - we destroyed Libya and caused mass issues in the ME,which lead to the current migrant problems and a rise in Islamic fundamentalism throughout the EU. Yet,we don't have the common decency to try and help the EU get over the problems. We should be showing soladarity with our fellow Europeans.

The EU nation states have shown great soladarity with us on many occasions supporting our blasted military jaunts,even though they were against it and they bear the same price we are. Not a single member of the "lets blame the EU" crowd says anything about that.

All we have is a lot of terrified people scared of a mythical EU superstate bogeyman,yet they contradict themselves. It was individual member state financial policies which lead to problems,not EU superstate economic policies. It was member states destroying countries which lead to the migrant problems.


Like I said one of my mates actually toured most of Europe recently as he went travelling,he was shocked by what he saw in countries like Italy and Eastern Europe.
Some of the Euroskeptic lot should actually instead of hiding their head under the carpet probably go into Europe and see what our military jaunts with France have done to them. If he was the sort of person who which posted on forums I would ask him to post in this thread what he saw. It changed his views quite a bit.


It is member states which caused us to be involved in the middle of a religious war.

If the EU was this massively regulated nanny superstate that the Euroskeptics say it is,it makes me wonder if the EU would have got involved in bombing random countries,or getting involved in a religious war,or even allowing certain countries to take massive financial risks.

Except it does not appear to be this massively regulated nanny superstate in reality since member states still seem to be able do whatever the heck they want and still endanger everybody else.

Not a single one wants to even say a single dot about the repeated poor financial decisions made by multiple UK political parties,the snoopers charter,Tempura,selling our gold at rock bottom prices,tens of billions of pounds of dodgy military projects,wars causing increased islamic fundamentalism in this country via our military jaunts,etc.

Supposedly,this is what the Euroskeptics are saying the EU superstate will do - reduce our freedoms,reduce our control,etc.

Yet,last time I checked one of the countries "least" in the EU compared to others managed to do all that perfectly well going it alone.

This is what all the Euroskeptics want hidden under the carpet. You can see them going "la!la!la!la!la! Nothing to see here!la!la!la!la!".

Plus the other aspect - if certain parts of the UK show more tendency to want closer ties to the EU(say Scotland),will a Euroskeptic UK allow them to have a second referendum??

Instead of people wasting their energy on a media hyped boogeyman as a political deflection from the REAL problems which affected this country,maybe we should be looking at the more serious issues in this country which apparently nobody is getting worked up enough to do anything about.

Typical politcal deflection strategy by the parties. We are mired in debt,still have economic issues,in the middle of a religious war,in the middle of a new cold war,etc and all we are worried about is the EU apparently . Throughout the history we have seen this happen again and again.... destractions from the real problems by poltical parties.

I lived through one and now I am seeing another. People are so caught up in microcosms they can't see the wood for the trees.

The whole EU referendum is basically that....a destraction. It won't fix any of the major problems faced by this country IMHO,just make as even more in debt(referendums cost money),waste time our own lot should be trying to spend on our problems and promising people a quick fix for the said problems which won't happen since they are far more deeper than that.

Too many scared people in this country,but scared about the wrong things.

[Galant]

If people put as much effort into trying to leave the EU into actually making sure our politicians didn't screw up so often we might actually start to solve some if our problems.
But that is far harder and we would need to ask some more serious questions in this country and far more soul searching.

You're exactly right. So are you saying, then, that we should just give up on this and let politicians, particularly the EU politicians, just get on and run things? Because that's what it sounds like your saying.
If you're saying that we should be asking serious and hard questions and doing soul searching, then that is undeniably harder to do within the EU than without simply because of the fact that we have far less say as national individuals within the EU as a whole than within our own nation.

Sure, there are lots of problems, and blaming the EU blindly is a poor and foolish approach and won't fix anything. I get it. I'm with you. I agree. You're right.

Where I don't follow you is that it seems you're implying that remaining in the EU, and pursuing the EU path further, will solve those problems. That's a non sequitur, as far as I can tell.

If the problem is people not taking responsibility, not being mature, not working hard enough, or whatever, then at least one logical solution is surely to reverse that and to therefore pursue that reversal and the conditions best suited to that reversal? Maybe the EU is another solution, but isn't proven just by saying it, and, in fact, there are a few areas which suggest that reversing those attitudes will be harder in the EU. So beyond just pointing out the problem, please can you explain how the EU is the solution to that problem?

Additionally:

If the EU was this massively regulated nanny superstate that the Euroskeptics say it is...

Maybe some are saying that, but what I'm saying, and what I've read the major BREXIT voices are saying, is that the EU is not yet that super state, but is destined to become that super state. And I hope you don't just suggest that such talk is baseless propaganda, because the promotion of such a notion of a super state with greater control etc. has been clearly and explicitly spelled out by EU leaders for years. Several quotes and speeches have been posted here demonstrating that reality. People can debate the specifics, perhaps, the future plan for the EU in general is certain.

[CAT-THE-FIFTH]

You're exactly right. So are you saying, then, that we should just give up on this and let politicians, particularly the EU politicians, just get on and run things? Because that's what it sounds like your saying.
If you're saying that we should be asking serious and hard questions and doing soul searching, then that is undeniably harder to do within the EU than without simply because of the fact that we have far less say as national individuals within the EU as a whole than within our own nation.

Sure, there are lots of problems, and blaming the EU blindly is a poor and foolish approach and won't fix anything. I get it. I'm with you. I agree. You're right.

Where I don't follow you is that it seems you're implying that remaining in the EU, and pursuing the EU path further, will solve those problems. That's a non sequitur, as far as I can tell.

If the problem is people not taking responsibility, not being mature, not working hard enough, or whatever, then at least one logical solution is surely to reverse that and to therefore pursue that reversal and the conditions best suited to that reversal? Maybe the EU is another solution, but isn't proven just by saying it, and, in fact, there are a few areas which suggest that reversing those attitudes will be harder in the EU. So beyond just pointing out the problem, please can you explain how the EU is the solution to that problem?

But the problem is all the Euroskeptic people just are using the EU as blame and a way to solve all our problems. This is the whole problem - if we leave the EU and our own problems don't get solved,the blame will spread to other people...people like minorities.

If people were that determined about solving our own major problems we would be worrying more about those issues NOW rather than the EU. But we are not and it is obvious why.

Have you not noticed half these things happen during economic problems - it is a convenient way for people to share out blame without tackling it. I lived in two different countries - both show the same trends when the problems started. Except one was poor and one is rich.

People move to more conservative and inwards looking politics during recessions - there is enough work done on it. It is very predictable.

It just shows you how much people are influenced by media bombardment - if that same amount of effort was expended on the more important problems,then people might actually expend their energy on more useful debates.

Plus if people bothered to look around the world - more and more countries are forming economic and political blocks. There is a reason for that. People overestimate how much we are actually resilient to the world around us.

But I am sure the UK on itself will be able to fight the BRICS,alliances in Africa,Asia etc fine by itself in the next 50 years with the expanding world population and ever increasing pressure on key resources. I wonder if we would be able to ally with at least 400 million other individuals sharing similar cultural traditions,similar values,and a similar technological base to us - they would make a block of least 450 to 500 million people who could really have an impact on the world stage against the competing blocks forming against the world. Alas,apparently we don't it seems according to the Euroskeptics. A shame.


Lots of countries around the world respect us less than the Europeans due to our history,and if any lot of people will show altruism it will be Europe. Do you think China would like to ally with the UK after the 100 years of shame or India? Sure they will do business but will likely clear off as quickly as they came when it does not suit them. At least for bad or for worse we can stand with Europe -we are culturally far more closer together. If there are alliances to be made,we should be looking to Europe.

Just like a family we can fight or get angry with each other,but blood is thicker than water and better the devil you know!

But I suppose most of us will be either very old or dead by the time the problems really become big,so we can let the future generations deal with that,so I suppose the Euroskeptic plans might have some merit then. Out of sight,out of mind!

Additionally:

Maybe some are saying that, but what I'm saying, and what I've read the major BREXIT voices are saying, is that the EU is not yet that super state, but is destined to become that super state. And I hope you don't just suggest that such talk is baseless propaganda, because the promotion of such a notion of a super state with greater control etc. has been clearly and explicitly spelled out by EU leaders for years. Several quotes and speeches have been posted here demonstrating that reality. People can debate the specifics, perhaps, the future plan for the EU in general is certain.

The main problem is that the Euroskeptic lot are using threats of the EU superstate boogeyman will take away our freedoms,do XYZ. Tempora anybody?? Like your freedoms lightly fried or deeply fried??

Yet,despite this our own politicians are doing that rather fine by themselves. Yet at the same time we are essentially controlled economically by what happens in other countries. That Euroskeptic apocalyptic future is here NOW and has been for decades. We are a country with hardly any resources,and the rest of the world has sway on whether we stay afloat.

The Euroskeptic lot have this funny little notion that if we suddenly leave the EU we are free to do what we want. BAHAHAHHAHA! I have some more bridges to sell them.

Nobody is really pushing out internal politicians in the same way they are getting worked up about the EU. More waste of time.

However,as a side note I think I am starting to repeat what I have been saying more than once,so best to leave it at that. I will have to agree to disagree with a few of you about the referendum in general and its actual realworld importance,and the fact we might need to step back and have a greater look at the world is heading and our internal issues. It is not a world of individuals but of alliances.

[peterb]

I don't see how staying in or leaving makes any difference to how we treat minorities - that seems to be a convenient windmill to tilt at.

And whatever you might think of our domestic politicians, they do at least know the problems this country faces and - whatever the colour of the party, work to sole the UK's problems. Is that true of a Brussels bureaucrat who has 28 clamouring voices to listen too?

DC tried negotiating a better deal for the UK, and was partially successful, so if we do vote to stay in, we will have gained some concessions - at least in the short term.

[Galant]

From what I can gather Cat, and correct me if I'm wrong, what you're basically saying is that there's far too much to lose economically by leaving the EU but people are blinded to that reality when they simply view the EU as a scapegoat for other issues that will not be solved even if they do leave the EU?

Would that be a fair summary?

[SeriousSam]

No disrespect Cat but pretty much all I get from your posts is "Bla Bla Bla, bunch of gullible narrow minded little Englanders should listen to me because I've lived abroad and know better". Now your previous posts have never struck me as those being made by a blithering idiot, so I'll just put it down to a misperception. However, it is clear that you have been seduced by the insidious doublespeak of the EU political class who have clearly read far too much Rousseau.

The notion that in the event of leaving the EU this island nation, which is arguably one of the most open minded and free in the world, will suddenly descend into some intolerant Aryan hellhole is farcical. We do not need a sanctimonious European political system to steward us towards their enlightened world view. Primarily because it is anything but a "nirvana" of cooperation between nations. It doesn't take much effort to find serious ructions between the various nation states on all manner of things and not just economics. Furthermore leaving the EU is in no way abandoning Europe, it is merely adjusting our relationship with said continent.

In regards to refugees from the middle east then the best place for them is in the neighbouring countries and it is there that our efforts should be focussed. If only because the money spent on one refugee here would benefit 50-100 in that locale. Furthermore this is only a taste of what's to come with Africa's changing demographic. In the next 20 years the working age population in that continent will rise by over 1Billion. As it stands very few of the countries can deal with their current situation, let alone with that sort of increase. So when the inevitable wars start do we have to take them in as well. Just because notionally in the past we made things worse.

At some point you have to face reality... yes we are lucky to live here, but that doesn't mean we should feel guilty about that fact and that others have it worse. What we should be doing is realising our duty to protect this green and pleasant land, which to be blunt is already overpopulated to the tune of 20-30million people.

Finally when it comes to blame*, if you want to apportion fault for the ills that trouble the world you can sum it up in one world "humanity".

* Something which I don't do because it is pointless once you realise that ultimately you'd get back to procaryotes and eucaryotes coming together.

[HalloweenJack]

whats disappointing , is certain posters are shouting as loud as they can that their OPINION is correct whereas if you disagree then you are wrong.

this is an emotive subject but certain posters attitude is borderline bullying.