Transgender Children

[Biscuit]

I'd like to see some of those bad information and extremism to make my own mind about them.

If you want to see some of the dark side of this "inclusive" sexual orientation social media just type in cisgender. Im not going to directly link anything as I think its bad form to promote it.

If you're not already aware, 'cis' the term that has been given to people who are straight and stuck to their biological gender. There is a lot of misguided hatred being fuelled by misinformed parties on both sides and its just a spiralling cesspool of horror.
I would hope that the kind of numbers involved in the 'cis-bashing' (I just coined that, don't know if its an actual phrase.... don't care) would be just a very vocal minority and in actual fact most have an understanding of basic social decorum but I don't know enough about it to be honest. It's something I'm aware of but I don't spend significant time trawling through.

Right now, I am still very sceptical. Even being bombarded by the idea that feeling attracted by someone of the same gender, or wishing to change once gender is perfectly fine, I doubt that it'll trigger them to actually fall in love with someone of the same gender or believe that they belong to another gender.

As am I, that isnt at all what I am suggesting. I'm saying that there is there is some very vocal and dangerous elements within social media which would lead you believe that if you are 'cis' then you are basically a privileged evil devil. If we are to believe that society and the media can influence a persons personality then surely you understand how this should be a cause for concern for parents with easily influenced children trying to find their way in the world?

The point is this not a "tradition" you choose to be or not to be, but something that you are. Nowadays, at least, we may study differences in left-handers vs right-handers, but we don't consider (AFAIK) whether handedness as something we choose, and whether "choosing" to be left-handed will result in a happier and more productive society. And even if it becomes established that left-handers are statistically more likely to be suicidal, it doesn't mean that forcing them to "be" right-handed is going to change that.. or somehow result in a happier and more productive society.

OK so perhaps my use of the word 'choosing' was a bit thoughtless, but that isnt at all what I was suggesting. I certainly wasnt suggesting we should oppress people into one way or another to result in a happier society, I'm merely talking from an observational point of view as to what the result will be.

[TooNice]

Will Google it up later and see I can make sense of what you are suggesting. TBH, I don't think that Zakk was talking about social media anyway, but implying that it was a no-news.

He also drew parallels between the normalcy child may feel in a different time/place, to that of a transgender child surrounded by the media we have now. I quote:

Asking a young adult.. or a child.. to determine what they think their gender is, when utterly surrounded by the media that we now have... is possibly impossible.

Maybe I am misunderstanding what he is saying, but I am pretty sure that if I was to ask my nephews or niece whether they think that they are male or female, they can give a straight answer right away.

But whether the media he is referring to is traditional or social, I can't think what they could possibly write to overwrite our sense of sexual orientation or gender identity.

If you always had that nagging feeling that you should have been more in the body of another gender, the media can convince you that there are people like that and it is fine.

But for the parallels he drew regarding normalcy to hold, the media would have to constantly suggest that it is -more- normal to be transgender than non-transgender. Because those machete wielding child soldiers? They grew up surrounded by other machete wielding child soldier. Ditto for all the other parallels.

I think that social media can do things such as spreading hatred towards one group or another amongst many other things, and yes, parenting/education will be key to protect the children. But I think that it's ability to influence our sexual orientation/gender identity is far more limited. Can you imagine the level of exposure it would take to make a heterosexual person to believe that being gay is more common? Even if it is featured in every TV ads, every newspaper ads, every internet banner, the minute they step outside the house they will see, predominantly heterosexual couples. It's a tall order.

Lastly, I know you weren't suggesting that we oppress people, but I am also not too sure what you are trying to say. I took it as you pondering and doubtful that being different is going to lead to a happier society. At that, I think that it is going to be true for a very long time, but there is no more appealing alternative that I can think of.

[Zak33]

i knew I'd word it wrong

Serious Sam and I discussed it today. For quite a while.

I am not actually sure how to explain what I mean. I am literate and competent, but the sheer scale of the subject and the ease with which context can miss the target, is too scary for me to continue.

I think I shall attempt to explain only "media"

I don't mean just news papers... I mean digital media.. the surrounding, utterly, in some way shape or form, of stuff!
If you join a Facebook group or read a blog, or sign up to a forum, you can be utterly swamped by the content. And it didn't happen 25 years ago like that. Normalcy now is not the same as normalcy 25 years ago.

A library trip... a few hand written letters and a magazine once per month.. that's your lot in 1991.

to even begin to think you might be influenced by that, compared to the utter drenching you can get now on your mobile phone from the comfort of your school bike sheds is....too hard to compare.

[TooNice]

Here's the thing, Facebook group, blogs, forums on those subjects still requires the person to look up for it. I use Facebook. I visit many forums. I don't regularly check out people's blog, but I have done so in the past. Along side many other online communities. Those subjects do just do not "pop out" on my screen other than the relatively rare forum thread like this one. To be swamped by it though, I'd have to look for it.

It is true that those blogs, online communities, etc. are just a keyword away. Yet most people will not look for them unless they are doing some research, or, have a nagging feeling that something is "off" about themselves for a while. As an example, I mentioned about hypnic jerk before. While there are pages of sites on the subject, it was still information that needs to be looked up and I did so because it was something that affected me a few times.

What I am getting at, is that to get "drenched" by anything that isn't constantly on the headline, you have to look for it (spam mail excluded - but those haven't convinced me that I should go under the knife to make my wiener bigger). For most things, you have to look for it, and you are going to look for it only if you have a nagging feeling that something is off. Again, I am not sure about 4 years old, but if you are over 10, and have for as long as you can remember, be wondering if you aren't born in the wrong gendered body.. then I think that is worth investigating.

Besides, though this is assumption on my part, but presumably parents can't just take their kids to the hospital and tell them "Please turn my boy into a girl". I would expect the kid to be evaluated by a specialist who can then make the recommendation to go ahead or not, with such life changing procedures.

Edit: Actually, may I ask a clarification of what exactly you believe the impact of the digital/traditional media has on children in the context of transgender children?

[SeriousSam]

TooNice

No disrespect to Zak but it's probably better I try and explain this as I'll have to get into the nature and evolution of self. Something I've spent a lot more time learning about, both through necessity and curiosity.

Roughly between 0 and 8 years old a human brain is developing the systems which process and store information. Essentially building the library against which the world is compared. At this point very few people are able to "think" beyond simple concepts. Thus the "idea" of what constitutes "X" needs to be clearly defined with minimal provisos, otherwise unnecessary confusion tends to ensue. It is also the period in which the first vestiges of self, beyond recognising oneself in a mirror, start to form. At this point a lot of it is highly based on direct comparison, i.e. "am I like X? Yes / No".

Now back when Zak and I grew up in the 1970's the level of external information input was minimal; 3 TV stations, no home computers and internet. Furthermore the "idea" of what things were was also far more simplistic. Arguably too much so and often wrong, but that was the way of things then. Compare that with now and it is like chalk and cheese. Children are bombarded from all directions by conflicting imagery and not just in terms of what constitutes "boy and "girl". So it is hardly surprising that a lot more confusion has arisen.

The problem with confusion, especially in children, is that is directly taps into fight / flight response via uncertainty. This generally leads to overly aggressive behaviour patterns, often in a contrary form. Clearly this isn't what you want as a parent so you look for answers. The problem being that they (and lots of psychiatrists) look at it from an adult perspective rather than that of a child. In the case of the child from the newspaper for example he may identify with the character from Frozen because of who she is and what she does, and thus wants to be like her. The problem being that a "boy" can't be a "princess" as that is how she is "defined" in the story. So he rejects the former as the latter is more important. Now an adult would realise that the two aren't necessarily incompatible as your gender does not have to define all aspects of who you are. He can in reality be like her without being a princess.

Thus an adult who feels that they were born in the wrong sex body can define themselves as transgender. Applying that label to a child is both irresponsible and complete nonsense.

[TooNice]

I think that it comes back to some of the point discussed earlier in the thread. I am quite convinced that you wouldn't want to let a 4 years old to make such decisions. But I am also quite convinced that you can be very sure of your gender identity long before adulthood.

I've always had a weak spot for strong female heroines even as a kid. Most of my MMORPG characters have been female. I may even try to roleplay the character as such. In a fighting games, I'll often pick female characters. Unless there are ninjas (e.g. Scorpion/Sub-Zero). But if there are female ninjas (e.g. Kitana) you can bet that I'll pick them first. But have I ever, ever thought "I identify myself as more of a girl"? Not a single time. I may reject certain social stereotype associated with being a man (e.g. having to drink and enjoy beer - ), much preferring cake and ice-cream but I still identify myself as male and nothing else.

The reason I am not keen on the idea of waiting longer than necessary (whatever that is), is because if we really think about it must really affect their quality of life. Imagine yourself stuck with a woman's body for the next 10 years. I am pretty sure that it would affect how I feel about my life. And I imagine that is how their life must feel like until they go through with it. Now I am well aware that if you get it wrong, it's not 10 years but the rest of your life (you can probably "switch back" but not to the original state) so you want to be sure but I really believe that you can be pretty confident of your gender identity long before full adulthood.

[SeriousSam]

The truth is that you can convince yourself that you know long before adulthood, but the reality is that you cannot know for certain until after puberty. In fact if we really want to get into it not even then, unless you know and understand who you are and why that came about. Worryingly if you strictly go by the latter definition the proportion of the human race who actually qualify as "fully actualised selves" is somewhere in the 5-15% range Personally I think it's possible to know without fully understanding why if you are in tune with yourself. Though even achieving that is easier said than done.

Anyway, people don't want to face this fact and are all to willing to play god because "discriminated victim"...

[wazzickle]

One of the most common criticisms of the attack against transgender people in general as well as transgender children is the absolute lack of regard for the voices of transgender people themselves. Almost every one of them say that they knew from a very early age very clearly that they were the wrong gender, that what society and their parents were trying to foist onto them was wrong for them, and that they knew they would or at least wanted to transition eventually. I don't recall ever hearing anyone say 'yes I believed as strongly as that that I wanted to change gender, but it passed'. You are all acting as if you know what's right for other people; it sounds just like the people who say 'oh it's just a phase' when people come out as teenagers. I knew I was bisexual from 13; I was pretty lucky compared to most in that I was safe and comfortable in the knowledge from an early age, and why would anyone else know about me better than me? You might think you know what's better for a 5-year old than a 5-year old, but you almost certainly don't know better than the medical authorities, just because the idea offends your sensibilities.

[SeriousSam]

Let me be clear that I am not one of those people that dismiss things out of hand as "this is just a phase". However, neither am I someone who agrees with applying adult classifications to children as the two are very different entities. So to me there is no such thing as transgender children, merely children who are learning and hopefully coming to terms with who they are. Yes we as adults should be a darn sight more supportive and less prescriptive in many ways. However, children still have to learn that there are things you can change and things you cannot. Furthermore some of the former should only be undertaken after a great deal of thought and in some cases after other criteria have been met.

To give some perspective on my position;

I read a non tabloid interview with someone that had transitioned from male to female because they thought that was the cause of their unhappiness. Only to find that they were even more unhappy as a female and wanted to transition back again. Eventually it turned out that something else entirely was the cause and that once they had sorted that out they were much happier. At the time they were still intending to transition back again but I don't know whether they did or not. So it is very much the case that you can "think you know" and be wrong as well as being right. Once you have studied the human condition it becomes painfully clear how spectacularly we can delude ourselves about all kings of things.

When it comes to the mental side of health and well-being the general medical authorities are scarily clueless. If I were to sit and write about the number of misdiagnoses I personally know of I'd be here all day and that pales into insignificance compared to one of my friends who works as a counsellor. They are far too caught up on the idea that everything can be classified into neat little boxes and solved with a pill.

[TooNice]

I am going to need some solid references to be convinced of this "truth". I highly suspect it's not nearly as clear cut as you make it, psychology rarely is. While I acknowledge that my own experience is limited, and how I view it fallible, going by the referenced material on the Wiki, the core gender identity is firmly formed by age three and refined until young adulthood. I do not think that you can have your core identity be one gender, and upon refinement end up with something different. And with gender identity formed so early, I reason that you can figure it out with confidence long before the completion of the refinement phase. As far as I am concerned, it is neither rocket science nor a profound philosophical question.

Also, I do not consider surgeries to be "playing God", and make no exception for this one if that is what you meant by that.

Edit: Yes, I am sure that there are people who have made the transition and regretted it. But there is two points here:
1. They would have regretted too if they hadn't gone through with it too (no idea what is the cause of the story you read, but I'd be surprised in most cases it isn't a gender identity issue).
2. Some people regret not because they went through with it, but realise they could not be what they could be even after the procedure. You can reshape the genitals but you can't be pregnant or impregnate.

[Zak33]

I read a non tabloid interview with someone that had transitioned from male to female because they thought that was the cause of their unhappiness. Only to find that they were even more unhappy as a female and wanted to transition back again. Eventually it turned out that something else entirely was the cause and that once they had sorted that out they were much happier. At the time they were still intending to transition back again but I don't know whether they did or not. So it is very much the case that you can "think you know" and be wrong as well as being right. Once you have studied the human condition it becomes painfully clear how spectacularly we can delude ourselves about all kinds of things.

This...with bells on.

Not everyone can know what they "know", because it can change after the moment/period it was "known" or felt, and sometimes it's something utterly different and that's not known.

And lets be clear..it's horrible either way! because misery is still misery.