Now that the dust is begining to settle... what do you want from UK / EU treaty

[peterb]

So you are really saying that the EU is anti-competition?

One way of attracting inward investment is by tweaking corporation tax, as George Osborne might have done. That is permitted by the EU, but I could quite easily see a day when that wouldn't be permitted in the interests of "harmonisation". And the next step would be "harmonisation" of income tax and so on.

[opel80uk]

So you are really saying that the EU is anti-competition?

One way of attracting inward investment is by tweaking corporation tax, as George Osborne might have done. That is permitted by the EU, but I could quite easily see a day when that wouldn't be permitted in the interests of "harmonisation". And the next step would be "harmonisation" of income tax and so on.

That could very well be viewed as an anti-competition measure, but presumably it is percieved to be offset by the economic benefits to the Governments.

I don't doubt that some within the EU would like to get their hands on the Corporation tax rates; there is already much disconcertion at Irelands low rate, but the UK was in a very strong position in that regards by being a large econony in the EU but outside the Euro zone. It would have made it very difficult for the EU to attempt those kind of restrictions in an economy with a different currency.

Although if you think because of my posts I myself am a supporter of everything the EU does, you'd be wrong. In fact, had someone told me an outline, or a convincing plan of what would happen post brexit, I may have voted for it myself. But it is inescapable to get away from the fact that anyone who voted leave did so without a clue what would happen afterwards. And also, far from being annoyed about the vote as others have implied, I'm pretty sanguine as I fully expect brexit to just mean eu membership by another means and with another name. Theres only one thing that does bother me though; namely that the myth is still being peddled that the leave campaign wasn't run, virtually entirely, on a combination of misinformation, half truths, lies (and yes, far more than remain) and no small part of racism. And that last one is the kicker; to hear so many people hide behind the notions of sovereignty, control, elected vs unelected etc, when they know full well that the average person in the street will have virtually no say in a system that is already rigged, regardless of whether we are in or out of the EU, all to try and camouflage the most overridding issue - their own bigotry. Obviously, it goes without saying that not every leave voter is a bigot, but as Will Self said, every bigot will vote leave.
They say you can tell a lot about someone by the company they keep, don't they.

[SeriousSam]

Will Self was wrong, and not for the first time I might add. Bigot's voted both for Remain and for Leave. They may wear different guises, but their lack of tolerance for differing views is the same. Had he said "racists" he may have been nearer the mark, but there will still have been racists that voted to remain.

Furthermore the "truth" is that neither campaign was interested in "truth", all they wanted were convenient emotional strings with which they could make us dance like puppets. Oh and guess what, people danced, oh they danced... but you may as well blame them for for waking up in the morning, because everyone has those strings. The overwhelming majority of humanity goes through life utterly unaware of the things that control them and where they stem from. Mostly because it is easier to avoid thinking about them because it would be too painful to face them. It's why we as a species only truly learn through adversity. When we have to confront our demons...

But I'm pretty sanguine about things... the human race is doomed irrespective so why worry about it

[opel80uk]

Will Self was wrong, and not for the first time I might add. Bigot's voted both for Remain and for Leave. They may wear different guises, but their lack of tolerance for differing views is the same. Had he said "racists" he may have been nearer the mark, but there will still have been racists that voted to remain.

Furthermore the "truth" is that neither campaign was interested in "truth", all they wanted were convenient emotional strings with which they could make us dance like puppets. Oh and guess what, people danced, oh they danced... but you may as well blame them for for waking up in the morning, because everyone has those strings. The overwhelming majority of humanity goes through life utterly unaware of the things that control them and where they stem from. Mostly because it is easier to avoid thinking about them because it would be too painful to face them. It's why we as a species only truly learn through adversity. When we have to confront our demons...

I think he actually did say racists rather than bigots, but can't remember to be honest. In the context it's unimportant really; I happen to think he was spot on either way - I know of not a single person who I would class as a racist or a bigot that voted to remain, and yes the vast majority of those voted to Leave (some didn't vote). Still, if you wish to believe that there wasn't a large strain of racism running right through the leave campaign, which manifested itself in the overt racism displayed after the vote, then that is up to you. Like you said 'it is easier to avoid thinking about them because it would be too painful to face them'.

[peterb]

With a 35million turnout, there will be a mix of people in both remainders and leavers. And for some in the leave group there will be some for whom immigration is an issue (although that doesn't automatically make them racist).

Voting leave wasn't a complete step into the unknown, the U.K. survived long before the EU, although the world has changed since 1973.

But perhaps the EU has lured us (or our politicians) into a sense of complacency - it is easy being in the EU, just nodding through directives, and as Cat-the-fifth said, people look for things to blame, and some remainers can now blame Brexit for - well anything they like, just a as some leavers blamed the EU for everything.

As a Common Market, it was a good thing, and had David Cameron achieved what he set out to do in February, I might have voted differently, but Junkers, among others, effectively scuppered that. And funnily enough, the rhetoric and hyperbole that was trotted out then has been subsequently modified and toned down.

So I wait with interest to see what the coming months bring. Change, but then we are always in a state of change, and shouldn't be frightened by it.

[SeriousSam]

I'll not argue the point that there were racists / bigots who voted leave. However, it is naive to think that not one person who voted remain holds those types of views. It isn't just working class white males that are the sole perpetrators, nor is it just those on the right of the political spectrum. They come in a shapes and sizes and to be blunt, in my experience the worst cases are between ethnic / religious groups.

There is no moral high-ground to either side. Only those individuals who sat and really thought about their choice can hold their head high... but they are few and far between.

[opel80uk]

I'll not argue the point that there were racists / bigots who voted leave. However, it is naive to think that not one person who voted remain holds those types of views. It isn't just working class white males that are the sole perpetrators, nor is it just those on the right of the political spectrum. They come in a shapes and sizes and to be blunt, in my experience the worst cases are between ethnic / religious groups.

There is no moral high-ground to either side. Only those individuals who sat and really thought about their choice can hold their head high... but they are few and far between.

Of course Will Self couldn't possibly have known whether or not there was a single racist who voted remain. The point he was making was that racism was not a part of the remain campaign, and nor were they playing on peoples insecurities regarding race to try and influence the vote, and nor was the remain side offering any comfort to racists. The remain campaign was not, in any part, racist; the leave campaign was.

You appear to fixate on semantics, or a literal interpretation of what is being said, quite a lot; firstly on the consequences of voting in or out (you wouldn't get too many people on either side seriously saying the consequences were simply 'in or out') and now whether Will Self meant every single racist or whether he was speaking more broadly (he was of course technically wrong as not every racist would have voted at all) – but hardly anyone speaks in such literal terms when they converse normally.

[SeriousSam]

However, there were those within Remain who had consistently conflated "border control" with "racism". Arguably to make the ideologically extreme view of "total free movement" seem reasonable, but that's another discussion. In any case they are just as culpable for the ensuing mess.

Furthermore if Will Self's point was "leave are using the language of racism" then say that, rather than "all racists will vote leave". The former is accurate whereas the latter could lead to the idea that "if you vote leave you're racist". Word's have far more power than people either realise or care to admit.

[opel80uk]

However, there were those within Remain who had consistently conflated "border control" with "racism". Arguably to make the ideologically extreme view of "total free movement" seem reasonable, but that's another discussion. In any case they are just as culpable for the ensuing mess.

Furthermore if Will Self's point was "leave are using the language of racism" then say that, rather than "all racists will vote leave". The former is accurate whereas the latter could lead to the idea that "if you vote leave you're racist". Word's have far more power than people either realise or care to admit.

His actual words, if I remember rightly, were 'not every leave voter is racist, but ever racist will vote leave', and he was being interviewed alongside a black leave voter, so his quote specifically states that if you vote leave you are not necessarily racist. But again, it's irrelevant - that is just semantics against the backdrop of the wider point he was making.

See, on one hand you say the remain camp were conflating border control with racism, but then in the next make the entirely false implication that there is 'total free movement' within the EU, when in fact there is no such thing. There is free movement for 'workers' from within the eu who, if they don't or haven't got a job in a certain period of time (3 months iirc), can be removed from the UK. You made the false connection between the ECHR and the EU yesterday, and appear to believe the EU has total free movement, when it doesn't. It is exactly that kind of ill informed voter voting to leave that makes me despair.

[SeriousSam]

So what he actually said isn't the same as what you said he did and we end up going round in a circle because of a lack of accuracy... Now don't think I blame you for that as mistakes, errors etc. are easily made (see next point). However, the problem we have in the modern instant communication world is that information is spread incredibly fast and things escalate quickly. Especially when people are already looking to get angry.

If I put ECHR then that is my mistake. What I should have put is ECJ. What happens with the ECHR and our position within council of Europe is a whole other situation that will need "clarifying".

Did I say there was "total free movement" in the EU? No. I made a point about the apparent ideology behind the level of free movement which we have in the EU.

[opel80uk]

So what he actually said isn't the same as what you said he did and we end up going round in a circle because of a lack of accuracy... Now don't think I blame you for that as mistakes, errors etc. are easily made (see next point). However, the problem we have in the modern instant communication world is that information is spread incredibly fast and things escalate quickly. Especially when people are already looking to get angry.

If I put ECHR then that is my mistake. What I should have put is ECJ. What happens with the ECHR and our position within council of Europe is a whole other situation that will need "clarifying".

Did I say there was "total free movement" in the EU? No. I made a point about the apparent ideology behind the level of free movement which we have in the EU.

The only difference is that I originally said self stated 'bigot' instead of 'racist', apart from that it was accurate. And it was you that took my original quote of his to mean 'every leave voter is racist' when in fact it doesn't imply that at all. If I said every racist wears blue, no one would take that to mean everyone who wears blue is racist. But again, you're just being semantic.

Are you suggesting that people wish to conflate border controls with racism to further an ideology of a total free movement, which currently doesn't exist? You find that a more plausible reason for people connecting discussions about border controls with racism, rather than there being an actual racist element to the discussion? Even after what we've witnessed in the aftermath of the vote, and some brexit supporting commentators like Toby Young acknowledging that there was/is a distinct racist element within some leave supporters, you think it's simply a diversionary tactic by free movement supporters wanting to further the ideology? Absurd.

I'm gonna bow out of this now because I genuinely don't know what you're on about.

[spanna]

So if "every racist voted to leave" he is claiming not a single racist voted remain

[wazzickle]

So if "every racist voted to leave" he is claiming not a single racist voted remain

Yes, I'm sure he was looking for people to interpret his statement completely literally, rather than, for example, the idea that the vast majority of racists voted to leave and a tiny, tiny minority of presumably confused racists voted to remain. Like, less than 100, I would guess. Not that that figure means anything, of course, but I would imagine that, if you could poll those who had some form of conviction for racism in some form, you would see the ratio in the thousands or tens of thousands to 1 for leave:remain.

[peterb]

While I would expect anyone who is genuinely 'racist' (whatever that means in practice - it is a term that is bandied about as a general term of abuse) to be against any form of immigration, being in favour of controlled immigration, which was obviously a consideration for some who voted leave, does not mean that they are 'racist'.

[TooNice]

For the pedant, more often than not, as far a Brexit is concerned, 'xenophobic' is likely more accurate.

It's been said before, obviously not everyone who voted leave are xenophobic. But it's also undeniable that the leave campaign would be more appealing to those with xenophobic tendencies. And it also doesn't take much effort to find openly xenophobic comments from those who were voting for Brexit, even in this very forum.

'Controlled immigration' could mean anything really. And while it is (hopefully) true that not everyone who wish to see controlled immigration is motivated by xenophobia, it is nevertheless beneficial to those who are motivated by xenophobia (more control -> less foreigner -> 'better') and will get their backing.

[kalniel]

'Controlled immigration' could mean anything really. And while it is (hopefully) true that not everyone who wish to see controlled immigration is motivated by xenophobia, it is nevertheless beneficial to those who are motivated by xenophobia (more control -> less foreigner -> 'better') and will get their backing.

Where is the link between "more control" and "less foreigner" though?

I can understand "more control" being linked to "better", but it might be in our best interests to allow more foreigners in the country so "more control" might lead to "the same or more foreigners".