Now that the dust is begining to settle... what do you want from UK / EU treaty

[scaryjim]

... No more than you could be sanctioned for deciding not to take up a job or contract offer.

Which, of course, you can if you're on benefits. If you're on benefits and offered a zero-hour contract, I suspect you have to take it or lose those benefits. Then you'll have the approximately two month wait for your new in-work claim to be processed, which will probably then be refused because you're not working enough hours!

But, you know, it's progress, because it's getting people back into work *sigh*

That's something of a side issue though: the whole employment and welfare systems needs a complete overhaul.

[kalniel]

Now that I agree is an issue, but it's more one with the benefits system, not zero-hours contracts. You shouldn't lose access to benefits just because you had the 'potential' to earn money (and weren't given any).

[Corky34]

Of course not. No more than you could be sanctioned for deciding not to take up a job or contract offer.

From my understand though you can get sanctioned for those reasons, I'd not looked anything up before but now i have there's this BBC article that says they may, could, like i said IDK, I'm just going on what I've heard/read.

EDIT: Also found this FOI request (PDF Warning) that says someone could, although it does say without good reason, whatever that means.

[scaryjim]

It does rather feel that you can be sanctioned for pretty much *anything* nowadays. Welfare system needs an overhaul.

Similarly, I assume the attraction of zero-hour contracts for employers is that they offer a simplified admin process compared to short fixed-term contracts or a bank of freelancers/sub-contractors, despite freelancing/sub-contracting being an attractive option for a lot of people, and short fixed-term contracts making it easier for people to plan their work.

Of course, what a zero-hour contract really is is an on-call arrangement - IMNSHO they should be required to pay a retainer or stipend to zero-hour contractees, absorbed by a lower hourly rate for the hours actually worked.

Or we could just suck up the fact that a national guaranteed income actually makes sense, and that if everyone had that they could work in patterns that suited them (as Saracen was discussing previously). Then zero-hour contracts really wouldn't matter...

[badass]

It does rather feel that you can be sanctioned for pretty much *anything* nowadays. Welfare system needs an overhaul.

Similarly, I assume the attraction of zero-hour contracts for employers is that they offer a simplified admin process compared to short fixed-term contracts or a bank of freelancers/sub-contractors, despite freelancing/sub-contracting being an attractive option for a lot of people, and short fixed-term contracts making it easier for people to plan their work.

Of course, what a zero-hour contract really is is an on-call arrangement - IMNSHO they should be required to pay a retainer or stipend to zero-hour contractees, absorbed by a lower hourly rate for the hours actually worked.

Or we could just suck up the fact that a national guaranteed income actually makes sense, and that if everyone had that they could work in patterns that suited them (as Saracen was discussing previously). Then zero-hour contracts really wouldn't matter...

I'm all for a system where every able bodied, able minded working age person gets a flat amount per month that is enough to feed and buy cheap versions of the essentials but nothing more, whether they work and get paid or not. Regardless of pay. Then tax every single pound earned at 50% minus costs of working.
Costs of working being:
For cars, calculated using the average fuel economy of cars on British roads that year multiplied by the average cost of the cheapest fuel out of Petrol/Diesel plus 20% for mileage
For standard class and speed public transport, just make it free. It is a waste of human effort that is better spent elsewhere collecting money for public transport. Charge a supplement for 1st class/high speed only.
Any other costs directly incurred in order to work. E.g. tools for work.

That will also make tax dodging pretty difficult.

This will never happen because the terminally stupid hold the balance of power in every country. And I'm not referring to politicians. I'm talking about a sizeable portion of the public.

[BobF64]

But then, you're also going back to the days when 3% to 5% of school leavers went to uni,instead of the 45% going these days.

Which begs the question, do all those people really NEED to go to University?

I know its not all about learning something useful, its about learning self discipline and such too. So surely that means there must be better, and cheaper, ways to teach that.

[Corky34]

National service.

[scaryjim]

Which begs the question, do all those people really NEED to go to University? ....

In what sense?

A first degree has become an easy demarker for recruiters, so now people are requiring a degree for jobs that in the past would've required A-Levels, or even GCSEs/O-Levels. So if those people want to get those jobs, yes, they need to go to university. Whether we should've allowed the education system get into a state where full time education up to 21 was the norm by encouraging *everyone* to go to uni is a very different question. But the government policy over the last 20 years or more means that yes, most of those people DO need to go to uni, whether it's actually beneficial for them to or not...

[cheesemp]

Having missed this excellent question I'll throw in my response late!

I'd like all the lies spread about brexit to come out....

We're screwed either way (either in the club with no control and similar costs or out and having multinationals reducing investment and banks moving out due to lack of bank passporting) so might as well let people see how much they were lied to (i.e. Extra funding to the NHS). After all its not like we're going to get any more democratic control back (We still have the unelected house of lords and I still have a tory MP that could murder and still be re-elected...). I'm so done with politics in this country - at least my vote for an MP influenced something...

[OilSheikh]

Even though I have said I want uni fees to get reduced, I must admit that my time in uni was a huge waste of time and I would have been closer to my aim of becoming a millionaire had I not gone to uni. Maybe if I did the gap year at Microsoft, I may have sung a different tune.

That being said, many finance companies such as high-end insurances, brokers or traders are very picky about who they employ. You must be a graduate and are also asked to bring your Degree certificates alongwith you to the interview. Some even require that you must have at least a upper 2nd class degree from a red brick uni.

[SeriousSam]

But OilSheikh you are European. We are part of the continent of Europe, just like Americans are part of the Americas, Asians of Asia, Africans of Africa, and penguins of Antarctica.

I'm guessing that OilSheikh couldn't give two hoots about the fact that living on the European continental shelf technically means that he is European in some arbitrary sense.

Case in point I am British (subset English) part of whole group Human. At no point does European even play a part in my sense of identity. Despite the fact that my genetics / ancestry is a mixture of Celtic, Norse, Germanic, Norman etc. We may notionally share some political similarities in terms of democracy etc. but in my experience of living / working across Europe we are actually quite different. Someone else may view have done similar and felt the opposite. It all comes down to perception, so the key thing is not projecting your "world view" forcibly onto someone else.

[peterb]

I'm guessing that OilSheikh couldn't give two hoots about the fact that living on the European continental shelf technically means that he is European in some arbitrary sense.

Case in point I am British (subset English) part of whole group Human. At no point does European even play a part in my sense of identity. Despite the fact that my genetics / ancestry is a mixture of Celtic, Norse, Germanic, Norman etc. We may notionally share some political similarities in terms of democracy etc. but in my experience of living / working across Europe we are actually quite different. Someone else may view have done similar and felt the opposite. It all comes down to perception, so the key thing is not projecting your "world view" forcibly onto someone else.

That is pretty much my view. I've worked on joint profects with Nowegians, Belgians, French, Spanish etc and regard them as nationals of their country. I suppose in some generic sense they are 'Europeans' but I wouldn't normally associate that as a title or location or cultural/ethnic/political origin.

[kalniel]

Indeed, but why force it on anyone else if you're not happy to be labelled with it as well? If you label people on the continent as European then you have to accept the same label yourself. IE, it simply can't be used as a distinguishing factor.

[peterb]

Indeed, but why force it on anyone else if you're not happy to be labelled with it as well? If you label people on the continent as European then you have to accept the same label yourself. IE, it simply can't be used as a distinguishing factor.

That was the point, I don't regard them as Eropeans, but as members of a Nation State.

[kalniel]

That was the point, I don't regard them as Eropeans, but as members of a Nation State.

Absolutely, hence why my reply mentioned another poster by name but not you

[peterb]

Absolutely, hence why my reply mentioned another poster by name but not you

Sorry,mi don't see any member mentioned by name, but no matter.