Now that the dust is begining to settle... what do you want from UK / EU treaty

[kalniel]

Sorry,mi don't see any member mentioned by name, but no matter.

Post 88 http://forums.hexus.net/general-disc...ml#post3695188

[opel80uk]

I'm guessing that OilSheikh couldn't give two hoots about the fact that living on the European continental shelf technically means that he is European in some arbitrary sense.

'European' is no more or less arbitrary than say 'British' or 'English'.

Case in point I am British (subset English) part of whole group Human. At no point does European even play a part in my sense of identity. Despite the fact that my genetics / ancestry is a mixture of Celtic, Norse, Germanic, Norman etc. We may notionally share some political similarities in terms of democracy etc. but in my experience of living / working across Europe we are actually quite different.

The same thing can be said of, for example, a Londoner and a Geordie. I personally have met a couple of Geordies that I genuinely couldn't understand when they spoke. I might well feel more a 'Londoner' than I do 'English', but that doesn't mean I'm not English in the most commonly understood meaning. If I say I don't feel English, (and assuming I'm not, say, the 1st generation of immigrants as an example) then that means I'm intentionally doing so, because I am English. No different to an English person they don't feel European, and no different to that white woman in America who says she feels like an African American. Anyone can call themselves what they want, but it doesn't mean it's not a denial of reality.

As for the Europeans being 'quite different', that is a simplistic point of view. Obviously there are going to be certain common traits found in people living of the same plot of sod, such as language and certain cultural traits, but apart from those - which are almost certainly learned, how are we any different to say the French, or Germans? I say we are not.

[Smudger]

My parents' neighbour is a gonk. He is English but his wife is 'European', and is quite nice. I'm confused.

[peterb]

Post 88 http://forums.hexus.net/general-disc...ml#post3695188

Ah, but that wasn't clear from the post of yours I quoted as you hadn't diectly quoted it yourself.

(this is beginning to sound like something from Fawlty Towers

)

[SeriousSam]

'European' is no more or less arbitrary than say 'British' or 'English'.

The same thing can be said of, for example, a Londoner and a Geordie. I personally have met a couple of Geordies that I genuinely couldn't understand when they spoke. I might well feel more a 'Londoner' than I do 'English', but that doesn't mean I'm not English in the most commonly understood meaning. If I say I don't feel English, (and assuming I'm not, say, the 1st generation of immigrants as an example) then that means I'm intentionally doing so, because I am English. No different to an English person they don't feel European, and no different to that white woman in America who says she feels like an African American. Anyone can call themselves what they want, but it doesn't mean it's not a denial of reality.

As for the Europeans being 'quite different', that is a simplistic point of view. Obviously there are going to be certain common traits found in people living of the same plot of sod, such as language and certain cultural traits, but apart from those - which are almost certainly learned, how are we any different to say the French, or Germans? I say we are not.

To be frank your opinion on how I view my own state of identity is about a relevant as a film review by a critic who never even bothered to watch the film. Furthermore the only meaning anything has is due to that which we as an individual attribute to it. Consequently it doesn't matter if everyone else doesn't see what someone sees as reality, it is still reality to them. Especially if you consider that our entire perception is framed by an interface which we don't even understand or in fact know if we can trust all the time. Arguably we are ALL deluded.

As for differences that is not a "simplistic" view. The simplistic view is that we are all the same, when there are differences both individually and at a gestalt level. I've spent most of my career working with people from all over the world, which has taught me to appreciate said differences. That we have such a variety of "perspectives" is a good thing, even if occasionally it leads to issues. As an example I look at French politics and think "you lot are nuts", yet they have a far better relationship with food / agriculture than Britain does. The former means that I'd rather stick my head in a bucket of piranha than let the French have any say in our legal system. However, it doesn't mean I see them as lesser... just different.

[CAT-THE-FIFTH]

Freedom for Tooting!!

[opel80uk]

To be frank your opinion on how I view my own state of identity is about a relevant as a film review by a critic who never even bothered to watch the film. Furthermore the only meaning anything has is due to that which we as an individual attribute to it. Consequently it doesn't matter if everyone else doesn't see what someone sees as reality, it is still reality to them. Especially if you consider that our entire perception is framed by an interface which we don't even understand or in fact know if we can trust all the time. Arguably we are ALL deluded.

That was my exact point. If I want to label myself as 'Black', I am entirely free to do so and furthermore, my notion of what 'black' means might be completely different to everyone else's. That why I specifically referred to being English (and by extension, 'European') 'in the most commonly understood meaning'. You may reject the European Label, and you may not in any way feel European, but you ARE European 'in the most commonly understood meaning'. But of course, anyone is entitled to attach whatever meaning they want to whatever they want, but in most walks of life, it would be hard to have even a basic conversation with someone if they reject commonly understood terms.

As an example I look at French politics and think "you lot are nuts", yet they have a far better relationship with food / agriculture than Britain does. The former means that I'd rather stick my head in a bucket of piranha than let the French have any say in our legal system. However, it doesn't mean I see them as lesser... just different.

Take a French baby, and raise them in England, and chances are they would say the same thing about the French legal system. All you are doing is pointing out cultural differences, but those differences are minute compared to say the differences between the British and say, for example, the Mursi in Ethiopia, or even, to a lesser degree, with countries that we share a Language with like the US. It may be inconvenient but, despite the cultural differences between Europeans, there is far more commonality between most European states and peoples than a lot would care to admit.

[The Hand]

The UK's manufacturing figures today:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-37242804

..the UK's manufacturing sector rebounded sharply in August...

'Marked recovery'
Markit said the month-on-month increase in the PMI level was the joint largest in the survey's 25-year history.

Obviously early days, but this is undoubtedly good news post-Brexit. The cheap pound will encourage the export economy to develop even more.

[kalniel]

Obviously early days, but this is undoubtedly good news post-Brexit. The cheap pound will encourage the export economy to develop even more.

For a while at least. Then increased import costs will bite and said companies will have to mark up prices, causing further inflation and a corresponding rate rise and strengthening the pound again, creating a double hit to exports of a stronger pound and inflated prices

[The Hand]

Freedom for Tooting!!

Gloriously politically incorrect Enfield from the 90's !

[The Hand]

For a while at least. Then increased import costs will bite and said companies will have to mark up prices, causing further inflation and a corresponding rate rise and strengthening the pound again, creating a double hit to exports of a stronger pound and inflated prices

It's a possibility, but so far, things don't appear to be as bad as the projections of the remain camp were implying. The cheap pound will help to address the trade deficit in the longer term.

Apparently the price of the good ol' bacon sandwich is going up due to those inconsiderate Chinese buying up British pork too! :

https://www.theguardian.com/business...a-british-pork

[Smudger]

It's possible that things aren't as bad as predicted because we haven't actually lodged article 50 yet, and so aren't actually out of the EU. The real test will be once we leave.

[The Hand]

It's possible that things aren't as bad as predicted because we haven't actually lodged article 50 yet, and so aren't actually out of the EU. The real test will be once we leave.

Perhaps, but the initial psychological shock of the Brexit seems to have passed and there does appear to be acceptance of the reality of the UK leaving the EU in the markets at least and the wider economy could be also adjusting to this over time as well. At the earliest, the UK will be leaving the EU in 2019. This maybe enough time for business to adapt to the coming situation.

It's certainly worth reading Neil Woodfords pretty neutral take on Brexit here:

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/...onomics-report

http://www.thisismoney.co.uk/money/c...cs-Brexit.html

News update:

Tony Blair: "Britain could stay in EU if public opinion shifts"

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/...xit-tony-blair

[BobF64]

Tony Blair: "Britain could stay in EU if public opinion shifts"

And in other news, Tony Blair could be arrested and deported to Iraq for war crimes...

Whilst possible, it surely depends what has been done.

I suspect that once the UK invokes Article 50, the EU (read:France) will make us go through with it, especially as there is not "abort" clause in the article, its clearly 2 years until automatic ejection from the union.

[Corky34]

Perhaps, but the initial psychological shock of the Brexit seems to have passed and there does appear to be acceptance of the reality of the UK leaving the EU in the markets at least and the wider economy could be also adjusting to this over time as well.

The economy will always adjust, just like you or i would do if our wages got cut in half, the wider economy is really just an indicator of how well production, distribution, and consumption of goods and services are doing, short term the weaker pound is going to help however that's also going to cause inflation, it's worth bearing in mind that what we're seeing isn't actual based on an action, in other words the markets reactions so far have been based on nothing more than an opinion being voiced, the real actions yet to come with the triggering of article 50.

At the earliest, the UK will be leaving the EU in 2019. This maybe enough time for business to adapt to the coming situation.

I'd say the latest article 50 could/should be triggered is May 2017, if it's not invoked by then there's a strong possibility it may never be invoked.

...especially as there is not "abort" clause in the article, its clearly 2 years until automatic ejection from the union.

There's not? I seem to remember reading how once it's triggered it can be withdraw at anytime during the negotiations.

[kalniel]

There's not? I seem to remember reading how once it's triggered it can be withdraw at anytime during the negotiations.

Presumably *if* all member states unanimously agree. Which they don't - several want the UK to suffer as much as possible in order to send a message to other countries considering a referendum.