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Thread: EM Drive Paper Published

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    LUSE Galant's Avatar
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    EM Drive Paper Published

    Madness!

    The Paper

    This was the source that first alerted me to the paper's release:

    "In case you've missed the hype, the EM Drive, or Electromagnetic Drive, is a propulsion system first proposed by British inventor Roger Shawyer back in 1999.

    Instead of using heavy, inefficient rocket fuel, it bounces microwaves back and forth inside a cone-shaped metal cavity to generate thrust.

    According to Shawyer's calculations, the EM Drive could be so efficient that it could power us to Mars in just 70 days.

    But, there's a not-small problem with the system. It defies Newton's third law, which states that everything must have an equal and opposite reaction.

    According to the law, for a system to produce thrust, it has to push something out the other way. The EM Drive doesn't do this.

    Yet in test after test it continues to work. Last year, NASA's Eagleworks Laboratory team got their hands on an EM Drive to try to figure out once and for all what was going on.

    And now we finally have those results."

    The Conclusion:

    "A vacuum test campaign that used an updated integrated test article and optimized torsion pendulum layout was completed. The test campaign consisted of a forward thrust element that included performing testing at ambient pressure to establish and confirm good tuning, as well as subsequent power scans at 40, 60, and 80 W, with three thrust runs performed at each power setting for a total of nine runs at vacuum. The test campaign consisted of a reverse thrust element that mirrored the forward thrust element. The test campaign included a null thrust test effort of three tests performed at vacuum at 80 W to try and identify any mundane sources of impulsive thrust; none were identified. Thrust data from forward, reverse, and null suggested that the system was consistently performing at 1.2±0.1  mN/kW1.2±0.1  mN/kW, which was very close to the average impulsive performance measured in air. A number of error sources were considered and discussed. Although thermal shift was addressed to a degree with this test campaign, future testing efforts should seek to develop testing approaches that are immune to CG shifts from thermal expansion. As indicated in Sec. II.C.8, a modified Cavendish balance approach could be employed to definitively rule out thermal. Although this test campaign was not focused on optimizing performance and was more an exercise in existence proof, it is still useful to put the observed thrust-to-power figure of 1.2  mN/kW1.2  mN/kW in context. The current state-of–the-art thrust to power for a Hall thruster is on the order of 60  mN/kW60  mN/kW. This is an order of magnitude higher than the test article evaluated during the course of this vacuum campaign; however, for missions with very large delta-v requirements, having a propellant consumption rate of zero could offset the higher power requirements. The 1.2  mN/kW1.2  mN/kW performance parameter is over two orders of magnitude higher than other forms of “zero-propellant” propulsion, such as light sails, laser propulsion, and photon rockets having thrust-to-power levels in the 3.33–6.67  μN/kW3.33–6.67  μN/kW (or 0.0033–0.0067  mN/kW0.0033–0.0067  mN/kW) range.


    Read More: http://arc.aiaa.org/doi/10.2514/1.B36120"
    Last edited by Galant; 21-11-2016 at 05:07 PM.
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    Seething Cauldron of Hatred TheAnimus's Avatar
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    Re: EM Drive Paper Published

    I really wish I could understand how this is possible.

    Newtonian physics kind of makes sense, it's easy to imagine something, even something 'without mass' having an equal and opposing impact. I guess you can think of them like pool balls on a frictionless table, which I swear a bar in Bangkok perfected.

    But how the heck?
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    HEXUS.timelord. Zak33's Avatar
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    Re: EM Drive Paper Published

    am I allowed to be utterly baffled?

    cos I am

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    Senior Member SeriousSam's Avatar
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    Re: EM Drive Paper Published

    If I remember correctly there is a paper on how this result might not violate Newton's Third Law. Something to do with "paired photon's" as the ejected matter. Irrespective it's one in the plus column for 2106... something that has been altogether far too rare!
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    Re: EM Drive Paper Published

    Quote Originally Posted by Zak33 View Post
    am I allowed to be utterly baffled?

    cos I am
    Any discussion which can legitimately include the notion of "Schrödinger's Cat" is allowed to be baffling
    If Wisdom is the coordination of "knowledge and experience" and its deliberate use to improve well being then how come "Ignorance is bliss"

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    Re: EM Drive Paper Published

    Unless it was 'proposed' by this 'inventor' 16 years ago simply as a name for a sci-fi drive, he must have had some reason to believe this system would work the way it 'does'. For those of us science-literate it would be nice if they attempted to explain the first thing about what this does, beyond 'bounce EM round a cone'.

    Oh wait! Bounce EM round a cone! Of course that'll give thrust to matter. Doh!

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    Senior Member SeriousSam's Avatar
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    Re: EM Drive Paper Published

    It wouldn't be the first time someone has invented something by accident... in any case I dug out a link to the article on it not violating Newton's Third Law.

    http://www.sciencealert.com/new-pape...-law-after-all
    If Wisdom is the coordination of "knowledge and experience" and its deliberate use to improve well being then how come "Ignorance is bliss"

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    Re: EM Drive Paper Published

    Quote Originally Posted by wazzickle View Post
    Oh wait! Bounce EM round a cone! Of course that'll give thrust to matter. Doh!
    I think the issue is you need to have a really good grounding in quantum mechanics, not just limited to the copenhagen school on it.

    https://www.quantamagazine.org/20160...ental-support/

    Has a nice explanation of the pilot wave theory. This explains a little bit of how this could work, because it solves that whole particle vs wave thing from the double slit experiment, this allows a microwave to be a particle.
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    Re: EM Drive Paper Published

    Quote Originally Posted by TheAnimus View Post
    I think the issue is you need to have a really good grounding in quantum mechanics, not just limited to the copenhagen school on it.

    https://www.quantamagazine.org/20160...ental-support/

    Has a nice explanation of the pilot wave theory. This explains a little bit of how this could work, because it solves that whole particle vs wave thing from the double slit experiment, this allows a microwave to be a particle.
    Interesting article, I studied some physics at uni (dropped out mid 2nd year) and try to keep my hand in, so I got some/most of it. However I fail to see how that explains how this drive works?

    Something something quantum vacuum something something energy mass equivalence something something jamiroquai travelling without moving something. Make sense?

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    Re: EM Drive Paper Published

    Quite funny that /r/Physics deleted a thread on the matter because they deemed it 'unscientific'. This seems to have a lot more credibility to it than for example Cold Fusion. Seems like a good example of holding onto outdated paradigms because you're too invested.

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    Re: EM Drive Paper Published

    This makes me wonder, just how much electricity can you generate in space to crank one of these things up? No-one want a 100W space ship

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    Re: EM Drive Paper Published

    All we really need is a Flux capacitor, A shoe box size nucluar power station on a rocket!! or better yet Some Spice Malange that will enable us... get this ... 'To Travel without moving'' Woahhhhhh
    EM Drive, i read about this when i was a teenager in a New scientist Magazine and in theory its possible. its like the Drone killers, They use micowave wavelength to shoot off drones. Some USA navy ship did a test fire using a similar system. This will has the same principles to these, But how it all works out is exciting.

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    Not a good person scaryjim's Avatar
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    Re: EM Drive Paper Published

    Quote Originally Posted by DanceswithUnix View Post
    This makes me wonder, just how much electricity can you generate in space to crank one of these things up? No-one want a 100W space ship
    That was my first thought, tbh. On current thrust/power ratios you'd need gigawatts of power to get something off the ground at all. To make a craft that was solely EM Drive powered would take efficiency enhancements of many orders of magnitude, or the development of a much higher energy density power source than we currently have (fusion, anyone? ).

    OTOH, using conventional rocketry to get components into orbit then building EM Drive powered craft in space so you don't have to overcome Earth's gravity well might have mileage - the thrust can be generated for as long as you have power, and we can already do long-lasting lower-power sources just fine, so over an extended period of continuous thrust you could accelerate a ship, free from the interference of gravity and drag, to significant speeds. That said, making course adjustments and stopping at the other end might be an issue....

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    Seething Cauldron of Hatred TheAnimus's Avatar
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    Re: EM Drive Paper Published

    Quote Originally Posted by wazzickle View Post
    Interesting article, I studied some physics at uni (dropped out mid 2nd year) and try to keep my hand in, so I got some/most of it. However I fail to see how that explains how this drive works?
    The suggestion I was reading, was that by using the pilot wave model, we don't have to be violating Newton's third law because the "particles" exists in an observed yet deterministic manner with a mass.

    Fact is I think no one knows, let alone people who dropped out of A-Level physics half way because it was way to boring and took precious time away from maths.
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    Re: EM Drive Paper Published

    I don't need to know details, or would I pretend to understand them, but the kind of answer 'it just works' or 'because quantum something?' doesn't suffice for me. Even if newtons' third law is violated, something I could get my head round from a quantum level (i.e. it isn't really being violated, it just seems so), they haven't tried to explain where the energy comes from. 'Bouncing stuff round a cone' doesn't really do much for me in the way of explaining how that comes to impart energy to a thing.

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    Re: EM Drive Paper Published

    Electric input, it's a fancy magnetron no?
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