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Thread: Countdown started .... Article 50 notice served

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    Not a good person scaryjim's Avatar
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    Re: Countdown started .... Article 50 notice served

    Quote Originally Posted by Corky34 View Post
    ... at every election just like now we choose to elect politicians who where either in favor or against expansion of the EEC ...
    To be fair to the Leave contingent, they've not had a particularly good choice of anti-EU candidates over the last 20 years, since every major party was broadly europhilic during that time.

    For many years people were clearly not sufficiently bothered about the EU to vote for a single issue party. Indeed, it's the electoral rise of UKIP over the last five to ten years - showing that more and more people were bothered enough about the EU to vote for a single issue party (and ignoring the irony that it was the EU elections that provided that platform ) - that forced Cameron's hand in proposing an In-Out referendum in the first place.

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    Senior Member SeriousSam's Avatar
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    Re: Countdown started .... Article 50 notice served

    Quote Originally Posted by Corky34 View Post
    Very true but we always had control over how far the EEC turned into something more than a trading block, at every election just like now we choose to elect politicians who where either in favor or against expansion of the EEC, those are the same politicians BTW that many people claim they've taken back control from because if they do something they don't agree with they can vote them out, judging by what people say taking back control hasn't worked very well in the past.
    The only times I've ever been able to meaningfully influence the situation are (a) the general election which put Cameron in power and (b) the referendum itself. All major political parties have been "remain" with varying degrees of "co-operation" ever since Labour switched their position around 1983 under Kinnock. So the suggestion that we could do anything more than get dragged along the path of EU integration is somewhat risible. Especially as that was the direction intended by the original core members, arguably from the start. Heath was either a liar or an idiot, depending on whether or not he realised this despite proclaiming the EEC would only ever be a trading block when he campaigned to join. (Which was more my original facetious point)

    In regards to "taking back control" for some of us it was always more about changing the locus of control. Removing it from the EU / ECJ and handing it back to our parliament and judiciary. Now you can say that it hasn't worked well in the past, but that stands true for both the EU and every other nation in Europe. Our politicians / apparatchik are universally a pretty poor lot all round, with only the odd exception. However, the key point is that we no longer have to be bound within a system predicated by over-regulating Roman law, and run by blinkered ideologues hell bent on pushing their historic vision of "one nation Europe" irrespective of either the cost or anyone else's opinion*.

    * Or in fact scientific reality in some respects
    If Wisdom is the coordination of "knowledge and experience" and its deliberate use to improve well being then how come "Ignorance is bliss"

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    Re: Countdown started .... Article 50 notice served

    I'm sorry to say that although you may think and feel like you've never been able to meaningfully influence the situation that's demonstrably incorrect, name me a GE year and I'll name you a Eurosceptic party that you could have voted for to voice your concerns over further EU integration, and that's excluding the possibility that you could have registered with the electoral commission for only £150 and stood as a independent.

    Also saying we were bound within a system predicated by over-regulating Roman law, and run by blinkered ideologues is laughable as the UK political system is by far and away worse when it comes to over-regulation and ideologues.

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    Re: Countdown started .... Article 50 notice served

    Quote Originally Posted by scaryjim View Post
    16 million people voted to remain in the EU. On current evidence, the Tories are now going to realign to Euro-scepticism, UKIP should disband before the next election (after all, we will have left the EU by then so they'll have no reason to exist), and Labour appear to be doing their best to implode horribly (not sure if we'll see a party split or just mass defections to the Lib Dems, but I'd expect one of those outcomes in the next 2 years). That may well leave just the Lib Dems offering the option that ~ 16 million people voted for in the referendum. That's 5 million more votes than the Conservatives got in 2015. Landslide would be an understatement if all those people decided to vote Lib Dem....
    While I wouldn't put my money on it happening, it sure would be an interesting day where Conservative and Labour aren't the only two biggest parties (2010 was the closest but I didn't really believe it was going to be enough and it wasn't).

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    Not a good person scaryjim's Avatar
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    Re: Countdown started .... Article 50 notice served

    Quote Originally Posted by TooNice View Post
    ... (2010 was the closest but I didn't really believe it was going to be enough and it wasn't).
    The Lib Dems got it completely wrong in 2010 - they should've agreed to support a Queen's Speech from a minority Conservative government but then worked on a bill-by-bill/vote-by-vote basis - essentially acting as a "friendly" opposition. Their desire for some semblance of power threw them into a coalition where they were always going to be the lesser partner, and led to a whole raft of really very non-Lib Dem legislation being passed in their names.

    It'll be interesting to see how long that will continue to suppress their vote ... Brexit might actually be the saving grace of the Lib Dems because it gives them something to try to rally the faithful round...

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    Re: Countdown started .... Article 50 notice served

    Quote Originally Posted by hb904460 View Post
    Are they the ones who are now working as doctors, nurses, engineers, hauliers, mechanics etc who are helping to keep this country running?
    Yoru sarcasm knows no bounds.

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    Re: Countdown started .... Article 50 notice served

    Quote Originally Posted by Corky34 View Post
    I'm sorry to say that although you may think and feel like you've never been able to meaningfully influence the situation that's demonstrably incorrect, name me a GE year and I'll name you a Eurosceptic party that you could have voted for to voice your concerns over further EU integration, and that's excluding the possibility that you could have registered with the electoral commission for only £150 and stood as a independent.

    Also saying we were bound within a system predicated by over-regulating Roman law, and run by blinkered ideologues is laughable as the UK political system is by far and away worse when it comes to over-regulation and ideologues.
    General elections are not single-issue events, which means voting for a Eurosceptic party had, and still does, mean placing that above any other, and indeed, ALL other issues, which many people aren't willing to do . Add to that the electoral bias that FPTP engenders towards the big two and in many constituencies, a vote gor a Eurosceptic party, that being UKIP, may well mean adding to the chances of the one of the big two you don't want winning.

    Despite getting millions of votes, look at how well UKIP did under FPTP. Or, ask the LibDems, because they've been roughly treated by FPTP for several decades.


    Too many other fqctors, like, oh, taxation, education policy, the NHS, schools, the economy and positively LOADS of others all go into a mix when picking a general election party. But on a single-issue, simple-question referendum, ONE issue goes into it, and moreover, one that foes not divide on party lines.

    General elections are not single-issue votes. Never have been, and certainly under FPTP, never will be.

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    Re: Countdown started .... Article 50 notice served

    Quote Originally Posted by OilSheikh View Post
    Yoru sarcasm knows no bounds.
    I'd say that 10% of doctors being EU nationals is a reasonable statistic. https://fullfact.org/immigration/imm...and-nhs-staff/

    More NHS staff from outside the UK are non-EU nationals, though. That may or may not suit your agenda, I don't know.

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    Re: Countdown started .... Article 50 notice served

    Quote Originally Posted by Saracen View Post
    ....General elections are not single-issue votes. Never have been, and certainly under FPTP, never will be.
    All very true however that's not what SeriousSam said, (s)he said there's only been two times (s)he has ever been able to meaningfully influence the situation, (s)he didn't say concerns over further EU integration were never a priority, it also doesn't mean we never had control over how far the EEC turned into something more than a trading block.

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    Re: Countdown started .... Article 50 notice served

    Quote Originally Posted by Corky34 View Post
    All very true however that's not what SeriousSam said, (s)he said there's only been two times (s)he has ever been able to meaningfully influence the situation, (s)he didn't say concerns over further EU integration were never a priority, it also doesn't mean we never had control over how far the EEC turned into something more than a trading block.
    But short of a referendum, the outcome of which us what got us where we are, how are "we", which I presume means "the peopke", not politicians or indeed, government, supposed to have any real influence?

    It is, IMHO, precisely why previous governments, of both colours, refused to give us a referendum until UKIP's electoral successes, most notably (and as poined out by someone earlier, ironically, in EU elections) forced Cameron into a corner. Also, IMHO, it was a corner he didn't seriously believe he'd lose from, which is clear evidence that politicians misread the public mood now, and highly suggestive that they've been misreading it for years.

    Changing focus a bit, it seems to me there are three groups :-

    1) Want out of the EU
    2) Want real change in the EU, but by staying in.
    3) Think the EU is just fine as it is.

    I dunno about you, but other than real EU insiders, most of whom work in Brussels, I know nobody in group 3.

    I do know quite a few in group 1 that used to be in Group 2, but have concluded tg2at the EU is not about to change in any meaningful way, and as a result, moved to group 1. The Brussels response to Cameron's "renegotiation" was the final straw for a lot of people. I've even seen several interviews with VERY senior Eurocrats who didn't believe it was conceivable the UK could possibly vote to leave, and who show their true contempt fir democracy by still thinking it can be overturned, in that typically arrogant Brussels fashion of if the people are so "stupid" (see Guy Verhofstad's comments as recently as yesterday) as to vote "wrong" let's get them to vote again so the idiots can get it right this time.

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    Re: Countdown started .... Article 50 notice served

    Quote Originally Posted by Saracen View Post
    But short of a referendum, the outcome of which us what got us where we are, how are "we", which I presume means "the peopke", not politicians or indeed, government, supposed to have any real influence?
    I would assume in the same way they did when they started voting for UKIP, point being there's always been Eurosceptic parties of one sort or another so "the people" could have made their voice heard and had real influence anytime they choose to, fact is Europe, like you said, had never been a priority for most people in the past but to claim people have never been able to meaningfully influence the situation is disingenuous IMO.

    Quote Originally Posted by Saracen View Post
    It is, IMHO, precisely why previous governments, of both colours, refused to give us a referendum until UKIP's electoral successes, most notably (and as poined out by someone earlier, ironically, in EU elections) forced Cameron into a corner.
    On that i disagree, the reason why previous governments, of both colours, refused to give us a referendum and happily signed us up to further EU integration (treaties) was because until recently electoral support for Eurosceptic parties was all but non existent.

    Quote Originally Posted by Saracen View Post
    I dunno about you, but other than real EU insiders, most of whom work in Brussels, I know nobody in group 3.
    I don't think even real EU insiders would think the EU is just fine as it is, they may say that but then again most people are reluctant to tell their customers about the cock-ups.

    Guy Verhofstadt hit the nail on the head for me when he said Brexit was a "catfight in Conservative party that got out of hand"

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    Re: Countdown started .... Article 50 notice served

    Quote Originally Posted by Corky34 View Post
    I would assume in the same way they did when they started voting for UKIP, point being there's always been Eurosceptic parties of one sort or another so "the people" could have made their voice heard and had real influence anytime they choose to, fact is Europe, like you said, had never been a priority for most people in the past but to claim people have never been able to meaningfully influence the situation is disingenuous IMO.



    On that i disagree, the reason why previous governments, of both colours, refused to give us a referendum and happily signed us up to further EU integration (treaties) was because until recently electoral support for Eurosceptic parties was all but non existent.



    I don't think even real EU insiders would think the EU is just fine as it is, they may say that but then again most people are reluctant to tell their customers about the cock-ups.

    Guy Verhofstadt hit the nail on the head for me when he said Brexit was a "catfight in Conservative party that got out of hand"
    +1

    Also, it's worth knowing that it was mainly the older generation who voted for Brexit and the younger ones voted to remain. The younger generation is less racist than the previous generation so I'll echo Guy Verhofstadt's comments that the UK will reenter the EU at some point in the future.

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    Re: Countdown started .... Article 50 notice served

    Quote Originally Posted by Top_gun View Post
    +1

    Also, it's worth knowing that it was mainly the older generation who voted for Brexit and the younger ones voted to remain. The younger generation is less racist than the previous generation so I'll echo Guy Verhofstadt's comments that the UK will reenter the EU at some point in the future.
    And on lesser terms than we had in the first place...

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    Re: Countdown started .... Article 50 notice served

    Quote Originally Posted by Top_gun View Post
    and the younger ones voted to remain.
    If the younger ones had got off their backsides and actually voted rather than just tweeted about it then they might have won the vote.

    See, I can be ageist and tar huge numbers of people with the same brush too

  16. #79
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    Re: Countdown started .... Article 50 notice served

    Quote Originally Posted by Top_gun View Post
    +1

    Also, it's worth knowing that it was mainly the older generation who voted for Brexit and the younger ones voted to remain. The younger generation is less racist than the previous generation so I'll echo Guy Verhofstadt's comments that the UK will reenter the EU at some point in the future.
    Look , it's not about racism.
    You simply can't have uncontrolled immigration. That will ruin your society and the standard of your living. There is a reason why we have visas and as a 1st world country, we decide who we should let in to keep being a 1st world country.

    I am from this 'younger generation' you speak of. All of my mates and family friends voted for Brexit.

    I live in an area where it used to be roughly 75% English and 25% Nigerian ( not British Nigerian but Nigerian freshies ). Majority of the English folks have sold their houses and moved into the countryside. Their properties were all bought by East Europeans. The condition of my neighbourhood has since worsened. So, to me it seems that Nigerian freshies are better than East Europeans. Think about it!

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    Re: Countdown started .... Article 50 notice served

    Quote Originally Posted by OilSheikh View Post
    Think about it!
    I'm thinking about it. What now?

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