General Election 2017 Poll.

[TeePee]

Rising food bank use, suggesting that the economic growth coming at the cost of rising poverty.
https://www.trusselltrust.org/2017/0...ontinues-rise/
If we could reduce poverty, even at the cost of lower growth, it would be more sustainable as we'd enjoy higher tax revenues and less paid out in benefits.

That's it?

[Saracen]

Absolutely, the same could be said for the brexit areas too. Don't you feel disappointed that the brexit arguments did not turn the heads of the more educated population? What this means the issue of brexit will never go away mainly because of the poor debate last year and the scandalous lies told by the brexit campaigners.

I agree with most of that, apart from the characterisation of "lies", and the inference that it was just the Brexit side. Rather than lies, I'd call it misleading, or spin, or similar, and the "£350m a week" ranked in the same league of honesty as Osborne's doom-mongering and predictions of the Brexit effect in 2035.

As for the 'educated' not being convinced by Brexit arguments, the biggest single problem for me was that we didn't really get 'arguments', in the sense of a reasoned, evidence based exposition of rational positions by EITHER side. The whole exercise was hugely depressing.

Besides, I'm not entirely convinced it would have made much difference.

For instance :-

Remain argument : Trade with the EU will suffer, and they're our major partner.

Well, probably true, BUT .... suffer to what extent, and for how long? We can guess, make assertions and claims, but as it hasn't happened yet, nobody knows.

Leave argument : EU trade msy suffer, but non-EU trade will benefit, because we'll be outside protectionust EU customs union rules, and RoW is MUCH bigger than the EU. Oh, and the trade is our largest partner because we're inside those protectionist barriers, and have been for 45 years.

Well, that's true too, but we also cannot know the timing ad magnitude of such increased trade.

So it's literally impossible to prove that either position will exceed the other.

Much of the economic arguments have parallels with that, in that each group says their view is 'right', and neither can prove it.

But the Brexit argument is far from being just economic. For instance, implicit in Remain is laws made in Brussels and adjudicated by ths ECJ, whereas Leave implies laws made in Westminster and adjudicated by the UK Supreme Court. That's essentially a matter of political preference.

Then, there's a lot of Remainers that don't much like the EU as it is, but believe the best approach is to be in it to change/improve it. Contrasting that, some Leavers voted Leave because they they don't believe that change will happen, and that we tried that and failed, not least because what major parts of the EU want (a European federal superstate) isn't what the UK joined the common Market for, and isn't what we want.

All told, the quality of the "debate", on both sides, was dismal, depressing, and IMHO, utterly disgraceful. You may remember, or if not can check back on threads, that my personal position was 'inclined towards Brexit, but am DELIBERATELY refraining from deciding how I'll vote because I want to hear the Remain arguments. Instead, what I got was the Dave and George Doom and Gloom "Project Fear" show, and a healthy dose of nasty insinuation s that anyone voting Brexit myst be a zenopobic racist if they objected to the scale and pace of net immigration.

Am I surprised "educated" Remainers, whether Londoners or not, weren't convinced by Brexit arguments? Hell, no, and I'd be worried about them if they had been. But the same applies to Brexiters being convinced by Remainer arguments. I don't think I heard a convincing argument from "official" campaigning teams on either side. The whole 18 month campaign was a disingenuous and mutually patronising farce.

[Saracen]

What made you leave London?

Oh, how long have you got? We could be here a while.

A lot of things. Partly, opportunity. Something presented itself too good to turn down. Partly .... well, spent much time living in the Midlands or North? Having done so, I find it hard to see the attractions (other than well-paid work) of London. Oh, the theatres,, etc, are great, but thT's what trains and hotels are for.,

Then, even 30 years ago, property prices. A modest one-bed flat in certain central areas cost more than a 5-bed Georgian vicarage, in 1.5 acres of private walled grounds, including a main 'reception' room 40 feet by 20 feet and 14ft ceiling height, and a kitchen to drool over or kill for. The style of life, and pace of life was, for my tastes, FAR nicer.

Take a walk in the village and the most hostile event is when you pass a stranger and they don't say "good morning". I certainly don't worry about whether a youth coming the other way might be carrying a knife.

Oh, the views, too. Look out the windows and see nothing but trees and fields, and farm animals, for miles.

Work was part of it too, including a lot of time spent abroad. And far, far too much on planes, too.

I suppose, it could be summed up as "life happened".

Oh, and I absolutely loathed commuting on the tube. So going from corporate wage-slave to self-reliant was a part, too.

[Xlucine]

That's it?

I could go on, that's just one example of how any economic plan ought to do more than just inflate GDP

[TeePee]

I could go on, that's just one example of how any economic plan ought to do more than just inflate GDP

Well here's the thing. A contentious and debatable issue like the economy will always have people on both sides. There are so many different statistics that both sides can use to support their ideas. So when the best that one side can come up with is a press release from a small charity, it's hard to really see that as much of a debate.

Now if you began with the premise that the Economy is strong 'in spite of' Conservative policy, you might be able to support an argument.

[Top_gun]

Well here's the thing. A contentious and debatable issue like the economy will always have people on both sides. There are so many different statistics that both sides can use to support their ideas. So when the best that one side can come up with is a press release from a small charity, it's hard to really see that as much of a debate.

Now if you began with the premise that the Economy is strong 'in spite of' Conservative policy, you might be able to support an argument.

Nearly every Conservative Chancellor of the Exchequer have always managed to balls up the economy and yet gets away with it by saying under Labour it would have been worse. Much in the same way a naughty boy blaming his good brother for his ills. Fortunately, much of the decision making on the economy lies with the Bank of England thanks to Gordon Brown.

Is the economy really strong? Perhaps you've forgotten that the Bank of England had pumped £40bn of Quantitive Easing to stabilise the economy after Brexit or perhaps the weak pound which does little for consumers' pocket except for helping our exporters. The economy is also dependent on the housing market. Great you may say, except most people are unable to buy their own home and half the homes in London are bought by overseas investors. This also leads to high rents particularly at a time when salaries have not kept pace. Therefore the cost of living is more of an issues than say cutting income taxes. Xlucine is right to say "any economic plan ought to do more than just inflate GDP".

PS. The Tories have always failed to achieve their GDP targets. Hardly the bastions of economics expertise.

[Saracen]

Nearly every Conservative Chancellor of the Exchequer have always managed to balls up the economy and yet gets away with it by saying under Labour it would have been worse. Much in the same way a naughty boy blaming his good brother for his ills. Fortunately, much of the decision making on the economy lies with the Bank of England thanks to Gordon Brown.

Is the economy really strong? Perhaps you've forgotten that the Bank of England had pumped £40bn of Quantitive Easing to stabilise the economy after Brexit or perhaps the weak pound which does little for consumers' pocket except for helping our exporters. The economy is also dependent on the housing market. Great you may say, except most people are unable to buy their own home and half the homes in London are bought by overseas investors. This also leads to high rents particularly at a time when salaries have not kept pace. Therefore the cost of living is more of an issues than say cutting income taxes. Xlucine is right to say "any economic plan ought to do more than just inflate GDP".

Nearly every ... no, make that every Labour Chancellor has ballsed up the economy by going on a massive spending spree with money the nation doesn't have, so they borrow to fund their wish list.

And this Labour wannabe Chancellor shows every sign of the same degree of self-restraint .... as a greedy kid in a sweet shop when no adults are present. He'll gorge himself, given half a chance.

It wouldn't matter so much if when Labour "invested", it actually was an investment, but so much of the time, it's merely spending, pseudo-justified by calling it investment. It might even be morally desirable things, but if we spend money we don't have on things we want, we merely incur deferred taxation that our kids will get to pay for, which is not so morally defensible. But by the time that comes home to roost, the spendaholic chancellor is safely retired.

[Top_gun]

Nearly every ... no, make that every Labour Chancellor has ballsed up the economy by going on a massive spending spree with money the nation doesn't have, so they borrow to fund their wish list.

Thanks, but I am not buying that Tory lie. We all know the bankers caused the economy to crash under the last Labour government. As did several other countries around the world. Respect to you for keeping up with party lines but really this is wasted on me.

[peterb]

How I wish Id had the wise counsel of Mr Corbyn when I was a bit younger and had a mortgage and other debts.

Foolishly I went without things in order to pay of those debts so that I am now debt free. Of course, I now know that I should have just carried on spending to spend my way out of debt - living beyond my means - until the debt fairy magically removed them - or more likely I could have carried on amassing that debt to be passed onto my children - but then I'd be dead and it wouldn't matter to me. That would be responsible socialism I suppose.

[Corky34]

Nearly every ... no, make that every Labour Chancellor has ballsed up the economy by going on a massive spending spree with money the nation doesn't have, so they borrow to fund their wish list.

The problem with that is that the evidence doesn't seem to back it up.

And it's not just a single left learning economists who makes that judgment.

Obviously there are lots of different ways to measure the health of the economy but the often cited Labour makes a mess of the economy isn't entirely true IMO.

How I wish Id had the wise counsel of Mr Corbyn when I was a bit younger and had a mortgage and other debts.

Foolishly I went without things in order to pay of those debts so that I am now debt free. Of course, I now know that I should have just carried on spending to spend my way out of debt - living beyond my means - until the debt fairy magically removed them - or more likely I could have carried on amassing that debt to be passed onto my children - but then Id be dead and it wouldn't matter to me. That would be responsible socialism I suppose.

If you could have issued your own money, like the UK can, you wouldn't have needed to have gone without.

[Top_gun]

How I wish Id had the wise counsel of Mr Corbyn when I was a bit younger and had a mortgage and other debts.

This reminds me of one of your former economics illiterate chancellor George Osborne who tried to compare the UK economy with a credit card bill. Clearly, the economy is far more complicated than that.

[peterb]

This reminds me of one of your former economics illiterate chancellor George Osborne who tried to compare the UK economy with a credit card bill. Clearly, the economy is far more complicated than that.

Pity someone didn't tell Liam Byrne that when he wrote "There is no money left" at the end of the last Labour government.

[Top_gun]

Pity someone didn't tell Liam Byrne that when he wrote "There is no money left" at the end of the last Labour government.

It was poor humour. Not much difference to the note left by Tory Chancellor in 1964 (see the excerpt from wikipedia) when they made a mess.

On leaving his position as Chief Secretary to the Treasury following the change of British government in May 2010, Byrne left a "humourous" note to his successor David Laws saying "Dear Chief Secretary, I’m afraid there is no money. Kind regards – and good luck! Liam."[14] Byrne later claimed that it was just typical humour between politicians, but regretted it since the new government used it to justify the wave of cuts that were introduced.[15] The note echoed Chancellor Reginald Maudling's "Good luck, old cock ... Sorry to leave it in such a mess." after the Conservatives' defeat at the 1964 election.[16][17]

The note was frequently referenced by the following coalition government of Conservatives and Liberal Democrats to criticise the financial record of the previous Labour government, and used as a visual prop by David Cameron in the Question Time debate preceding the following 2015 election.[18][19] Byrne stated he has "burnt with shame" since 2010 over the note which had harmed the 2015 election campaign.[20]

[Top_gun]

The problem with that is that the evidence doesn't seem to back it up.

And it's not just a single left learning economists who makes that judgment.

Obviously there are lots of different ways to measure the health of the economy but the often cited Labour makes a mess of the economy isn't entirely true IMO.

If you could have issued your own money, like the UK can, you wouldn't have needed to have gone without.

The national debt has risen under Thatcher, Major, Cameron and May's government yet at the same time gave tax cuts to the rich. So in other words, our children will be paying for the tax cuts made during the Tory governments.

[Biscuit]

Another 5 years of austerity, increasing wealth gap and privatising of public services now then I guess.

Wooo Hoo :/

This, IMO, is still a massive failure for May and i'm very concerned about our position in the EU negotiations. She had one of the highest approval rating since approval ratings were a thing, and she managed to lose not only considerable ground politically, but also seems to have ended up in a coalition government.

DUP should have really spoken to LD before agreeing to it though, see what the last coalition did to their reputation.