View Poll Results: Which party do you intend to vote for in the General Election?

Voters
59. You may not vote on this poll
  • Conservative

    14 23.73%
  • Labour

    21 35.59%
  • UKIP

    1 1.69%
  • Liberal Democrat

    18 30.51%
  • SNP

    2 3.39%
  • Other

    3 5.08%
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Thread: General Election 2017 Poll.

  1. #129
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    Re: General Election 2017 Poll.

    Quote Originally Posted by Saracen View Post
    We want a "hard" Brexit because the EU has the position that nothing else is possible unless we give up one or more of the poinrs that were the reason for leaving in the first place.
    I agree with a lot of what you wrote in both of your posts as a response to me, and as a (British, not Irish) remainer, I have always said that I was a remainer because I believed it was the best of 2 bad options, not because of some deep seated love of the EU project. The reason I objected to Peterb's post was for no other reason then his continuation of this false, but popular, narrative that it is the EU driving the UK towards a 'hard Brexit' (again, if by 'Hard Brexit' we are talking about leaving the EEA). This is simply false; the 4 freedoms that all go hand in hand with each other are, and have been for some time, enshrined in the membership of the EEA, regardless of EU membership. If the UK decides, as is it's right, that it no longer wants to provide one or more of those 4 freedoms to EU citizens, then it and it alone is choosing a 'Hard Brexit'. The EU has not moved the goals in relation to the 4 Freedoms, and indeed they have been one of the few constants in the EU/EEA, so the UK should be honest with itself (as in fairness you seem to be with the quote I've snipped) and accept that the EU offered a soft Brexit in line with it's membership rules, and that the UK for political reasons, rightly or wrongly but nevertheless valid, look like they are rejecting that and choosing the 'Hard' option. What comes after, and whether a suitable compromise for both can be found afterwards we shall see, though personally I think it unlikely given that for both the UK and EU an economically suitable deal appears, on the face of it at least, to be diametrically opposed to a politically acceptable one.

    And whilst it might seem like I'm being a pedant by objecting to the continued 'it's the EU pushing the UK towards Hard Brexit' narrative, I think it extremely important because the fall out of this has the potential to negatively effect generations. In any economic battle, it is usually the larger of the 2 that wins, and whilst there is almost certainly a cost to be borne on both sides, then if the EU survives politically (which perversely might be aided by Brexit), then I am in no doubt that it will be better placed to absorb the economic hit than the UK. The EU has long been a convenient mud guard for incompetent British Governments and Politicians - that shouldn't extend to Brexit by blaming the EU for what is essentially a British decision.

  2. #130
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    Re: General Election 2017 Poll.

    I will probably abstain as I don't find any of the options particularly good.

    I agree with Saracen that the EEA is not an ideal option. I would say that disitancing ourselves from Europe and becoming a bit less reliant might be beneficial in the long term. The "Eurozone crisis" is merely delayed, not fixed. A "hard" Brexit has more potential in 10+ years' time, both good and bad, but I accept that we will screw it up! Anyway, it basically rules out the Lib Dems for me.

    I still hold the view of Labour being financially incompetent from the last time they were in power and their manifesto certainly seems to carry that on.

    That leaves the Tories (realistically the only other choice), and it was cancelling of the Leverson 2 and Section 40 that really stood out as I view the press with even more disdain than politicians!

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    Re: General Election 2017 Poll.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gerrard View Post
    I will probably abstain as I don't find any of the options particularly good.

    I agree with Saracen that the EEA is not an ideal option. I would say that disitancing ourselves from Europe and becoming a bit less reliant might be beneficial in the long term. The "Eurozone crisis" is merely delayed, not fixed. A "hard" Brexit has more potential in 10+ years' time, both good and bad, but I accept that we will screw it up! Anyway, it basically rules out the Lib Dems for me.

    I still hold the view of Labour being financially incompetent from the last time they were in power and their manifesto certainly seems to carry that on.

    That leaves the Tories (realistically the only other choice), and it was cancelling of the Leverson 2 and Section 40 that really stood out as I view the press with even more disdain than politicians!
    I hope Brexit will lead us to having balanced diplomatic & economic ties with a variety of nations around the globe. My concern is that while I have a good amount of faith that this will (eventually,) happen economically politically we may end up as the de facto 51st state.

  4. #132
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    Re: General Election 2017 Poll.

    Quote Originally Posted by spacein_vader View Post
    I hope Brexit will lead us to having balanced diplomatic & economic ties with a variety of nations around the globe. My concern is that while I have a good amount of faith that this will (eventually,) happen economically politically we may end up as the de facto 51st state.
    Quite. Out of the frying pan and all that.

    A fair few senior Tories (and to a lesser extent some from other parties) have staked so much political capital on Brexit that I worry they will sign almost anything the USA (or Aus/NZ/China/India etc) put in front of them just so they can flaunt it to the press. We should be equally as circumspect about any potential deal whether it's from the EU or another nation/bloc but I have my doubts as to whether things will pan out that way.

    If the current rhetoric was "Brexit is a risk but we think it's worth taking in the long term and we'll see what other partners we can trade with over time" I'd feel more comfortable. When politicians start playing the 'patriotism' card and rubbishing anyone who says trade negotiations might be difficult I feel it'll be a lot harder for them to climb down if we don't immediately stumble upon the perfect deal.
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    Re: General Election 2017 Poll.

    In other news: http://www.independent.co.uk/life-st...-a7744176.html

    Teresa May wants to regulate what we can see online. A bit like China and North Korea do. Nice.

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  7. #134
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    Re: General Election 2017 Poll.

    Quote Originally Posted by Butcher View Post
    A bit like China and North Korea do. Nice.
    Orders of magnitude more draconian and invasive.

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    Re: General Election 2017 Poll.

    Quote Originally Posted by Butcher View Post
    In other news: http://www.independent.co.uk/life-st...-a7744176.html

    Teresa May wants to regulate what we can see online. A bit like China and North Korea do. Nice.
    Nice Theresa, making North Korea look like a democracy in comparison with the UK.

    This strong and stable government have silenced the BBC and now the internet. PeterB have failed to quiet the Tory dissidents on this forum so watch out for Theresa, chaps. There will be no hiding place! Be afraid, very afraid.

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    Re: General Election 2017 Poll.

    Quote Originally Posted by directhex View Post
    Orders of magnitude more draconian and invasive.
    Who the UK or China and North Korea?

    IDK about China and North Korea but in the UK most of the internet requires you to be over 16, it's not the governments job to tell adults what is, or is not, acceptable to read or see, if you're never exposed to extreme views or opinions how are you meant to challenge them?

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    Re: General Election 2017 Poll.

    Quote Originally Posted by opel80uk View Post
    I agree with a lot of what you wrote in both of your posts as a response to me, and as a (British, not Irish) remainer, I have always said that I was a remainer because I believed it was the best of 2 bad options, not because of some deep seated love of the EU project. The reason I objected to Peterb's post was for no other reason then his continuation of this false, but popular, narrative that it is the EU driving the UK towards a 'hard Brexit' (again, if by 'Hard Brexit' we are talking about leaving the EEA). This is simply false; the 4 freedoms that all go hand in hand with each other are, and have been for some time, enshrined in the membership of the EEA, regardless of EU membership. If the UK decides, as is it's right, that it no longer wants to provide one or more of those 4 freedoms to EU citizens, then it and it alone is choosing a 'Hard Brexit'. The EU has not moved the goals in relation to the 4 Freedoms, and indeed they have been one of the few constants in the EU/EEA, so the UK should be honest with itself (as in fairness you seem to be with the quote I've snipped) and accept that the EU offered a soft Brexit in line with it's membership rules, and that the UK for political reasons, rightly or wrongly but nevertheless valid, look like they are rejecting that and choosing the 'Hard' option. What comes after, and whether a suitable compromise for both can be found afterwards we shall see, though personally I think it unlikely given that for both the UK and EU an economically suitable deal appears, on the face of it at least, to be diametrically opposed to a politically acceptable one.

    And whilst it might seem like I'm being a pedant by objecting to the continued 'it's the EU pushing the UK towards Hard Brexit' narrative, I think it extremely important because the fall out of this has the potential to negatively effect generations. In any economic battle, it is usually the larger of the 2 that wins, and whilst there is almost certainly a cost to be borne on both sides, then if the EU survives politically (which perversely might be aided by Brexit), then I am in no doubt that it will be better placed to absorb the economic hit than the UK. The EU has long been a convenient mud guard for incompetent British Governments and Politicians - that shouldn't extend to Brexit by blaming the EU for what is essentially a British decision.
    I think part of the problem is terms like "hard Brexit". First, there's no exact definition, so if I say I support it and you say you don't, we still don't know what each other really means.

    Secondly, it's a term much misused and often abused, by politicians on TV and indeed by some, mostly LibDem, as a term of abuse.

    It is, I guess, an overly-simplistic contraction of a variety of complex positions.

    I see where you're coming from. It's why, IMHO, the Brexiter position on retaining single market (or more accurately, internal market) membership changed, fairly early, to "maximum possible access".

    But you can strip it back further. In large part, the Common Market was about agreeing common standards within a geographically defined group, and hence facilitating trade because the people within that group could rely on goods meeting those common standards, wherever things were sourced from. That facilitated lowering of customs controls within the group, because they weren't necessary and were an unwanted extra burden.

    Contrast that to current days. Having been members for 45 years, wherever standards compliance is necessary, tbe UK already complies, will on the last day of membership, and will on Brexit + 1 day. It should not be beyond the wit of politicians and civil servants to parlay that into a deal that provides considerable levels of internal market access, precisely because it is mutually beneficial. And, no doubt, it is going to involve conditions and compromise.

    All that COULD be being discussed, as part of a complex process with a two-year ticking clock on it. And that access does not require either the EU to compromise on the four freedoms, OR the UK to compromise on basic sovereignty by accepting free movement of people.

    The ptoblem is the EU won't consider even starting those discussions until 'exit terms' are sorted. It then had the temerity to put the position of each side's nationals in the other dide as a priority as if the UK were the obstacle, when in fact we wanted to start on tbat months ago, and the EUs response was a flat no.

    My view is that "hard Brexit" is an unhelpful term, and concept, and that Brexit is simply Brexit. It is the UK leaving a block of nations actively seeking "ever closer union", to be what we were, a sovereign nation. It is the situation where laws are made by OUR parliament, which is elected by OUR citizens. It is NOT one where, for instance, international courts are superior to UK courts AND parliamentary will, on matters that are nothing to do with internal market trade ... like telling parliament that it can't determine prisoner's right to franchise.

    And no, I don't want to get into differences between ECJ and ECtHR, etc. My point is that, as a sovereign country, we could, and should try to, achieve a deal that works in the best interests of BOTH sides, but tgat necessarily is going to involve an adversarial 'battle' for position.

    So, on the one hand, the EU comes up with silly levels of 'exit cost', like €100bn. I will make a girm prediction now that that sort of figure is never going to fly. It is politically absolutely unsellable here. So, the response is " 'No deal' is better than 'bad deal' ", which is a simple truism.

    Hopefully, we can rapidly reach a point where both undesirable extremes are .... dropped.

    But make no mistake, both sides are and for quite some time have been "pre-negotiating", and a lot of the "hard" stuff, on both sides frankly, is like two elderly men squaring up for a fight, puffing out their chests, sucking in their beer guts and trying desperately to "look 'ard".

    A "hard Brexit", therefore, either is or isn't a good idea depending on exactly what is meant by it. My view is that, as Theresa May said, to some unfair derision, Brexit means Brexit. That is, the laws that bind up to EU treaties are repealed, and we cease to be bound by them. Everything is is up for negotiation, but that negotiation has to respect that BOTH sides have uncrossable red lines, and it's because some of each others red lines are uncrossable that Brexit is necessary, whether we pejoratively refer to it as Brexit. .Just don't forget that many of those going on about "hard Brexit" are doing so because what they really want no Brexit at all.
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    Re: General Election 2017 Poll.

    Quote Originally Posted by Corky34 View Post
    Who the UK or China and North Korea?

    IDK about China and North Korea but in the UK most of the internet requires you to be over 16, it's not the governments job to tell adults what is, or is not, acceptable to read or see, if you're never exposed to extreme views or opinions how are you meant to challenge them?
    Don't worry about that, the government will see that any extreme views are challenged...

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    Re: General Election 2017 Poll.

    But only if it's on the internet as it seems they want to repeal Section 40 of the Crime and Courts Act 2013 which compels publishers to sign up to a press regulator while at the same time setting up a regulator for digital companies with the ability to fine or prosecute them, talk about double standards and sucking up to the press.

  13. #140
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    Re: General Election 2017 Poll.

    Quote Originally Posted by Saracen View Post
    I think part of the problem is terms like "hard Brexit". First, there's no exact definition, so if I say I support it and you say you don't, we still don't know what each other really means.

    Secondly, it's a term much misused and often abused, by politicians on TV and indeed by some, mostly LibDem, as a term of abuse.
    Thats a good point - and I don't think we'll ever get a true "definition" of the term as its far too personal and means different things to everyone.

    To me, a "hard brexit" means essentially chopping ties with the EU (to ostensibly stop paying them money), enshrining the "common sense" EU laws into UK law for the moment, stopping free movement of people and therefore leaving the free market, and looking to negotiate some sort of trade deal or go to WTO rules.
    A "soft brexit" is just part 1 of the above - where we could keep critically important things like free movement and the single market, but avoid paying the EU quite as much as we do and having less of a say overall.

    That is only my impression however, and pretty much everyone will have a different view. Similar to how lots of people had differing views on what leaving the UK meant prior to voting.

    Both options are a short term disaster for the UK, and a long term complete unknown (it could be really good, or really bad, or indifferent - who knows). Both are hugely costly short term options in real terms, likely to cost us much to implement more than our 8-9 billion net contribution to the EU each year and although I think a "soft brexit" as defined above is the best of a set of bad choices, I don't think it would satisfy the majority of remain voters I know.

    Present company excluded, for many people leaving the EU really is a single issue scenario - immigration. Regardless of the economic arguments either way most people I have spoken to on the issue simply don't care and I *think* (without hard evidence ) that the immigration/free movement line is what most people will see as a hard/soft brexit.

    What our politicians think, who knows.

    It would be interesting to see a survey or two about why people really voted to leave, although it's tough to trust the results of say YouGov as the demographics who take part are generally remain voters, based on past results.

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    Re: General Election 2017 Poll.

    Do we really need a precise definition of the term? It's clear to most what it means, even if it means different things to different people. That's the nature of language, unfortunately, saying that because you can't pin it down precisely renders the term meaningless is standard obfuscation.

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    Re: General Election 2017 Poll.

    We probably don't *need* one no - as the election isn't really being fought on a hard/vs soft brexit as both Labour and the Conservatives are pushing for a hard Brexit as I see it, and (quite rightly) the election should not become a second brexit vote which is what my own party seems to want to do. Instead with have the traditional cuts vs spending, with more fruitcake ideas on both sides of the fence, neither of which is going to be good for us We either massively increase the deficit (labour's crackpot nationalisation plan) or continue to reduce it but attack UK business and OAPs (conservative immigration & care/pension plans).

    I really wish that either side had been more moderate so that we really could all get behind a single government or leader- but key policies from both sides are so incredibly divisive that it just isn't going to happen. The Lib Dems have tried to a degree but just don't have a chance unfortunately, and really did overstep the mark with the referendum pledge.

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    Re: General Election 2017 Poll.

    Quote Originally Posted by Spud1 View Post
    overstep the mark with the referendum pledge.
    What on earth do you mean? It's a pledge that speaks to me and given Labours' silence on the issue is enough for me to consider voting for them, which I will be doing, though more to do with them having the best chance to oust the tories in my constituency.

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    Re: General Election 2017 Poll.

    Quote Originally Posted by wazzickle View Post
    What on earth do you mean? It's a pledge that speaks to me and given Labours' silence on the issue is enough for me to consider voting for them, which I will be doing, though more to do with them having the best chance to oust the tories in my constituency.
    I posted about this earlier in the thread - but although I will be voting LD, I am a very strong remain voter, I think the way the EU referendum was conducted was shocking, and that a 4(ish)% majority should not be enough to potentially wreck our economy.....I do think that yet another referendum is a bad idea. All it will do is undermine our negotiations with the EU, divide the country further in two and create yet more problems.

    As much as I don't want to accept that we're leaving the EU and I refuse to accept that we'll no longer have free movement (as thats different ) it is what it is. The lib dems would have been stronger by setting out a fixed position on what they would push for in negotiations..I really don't think that most people want another referendum on this (or any!) issue, and offering that up as part of their manifesto will turn off a number of voters.

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