What a load of bull.. (belgium GP)

[Kumagoro]

From the off kimi was determined to win at any cost which you could see in the first lap when he
was forcing his team mate massa off the track. He blatantly was forcing Hamilton off the track and
not just closing the door, he also purposely went into the back of him a bit later. You can see that
kimi was desperate and would have done anything to win.

It made it interesting though.

What gets me is the slowness of their decisions to punish they could easily have said something within a minute telling him to re-yield the place.

Personally I think they have ulterior motives when dishing out penalties, I reckon its just to keep
the championship alive and interesting.

[staffsMike]

Good video here that actually looks like Lewis probably could have stayed on the track, though we can't see how close they are to colliding in this video really.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=70rXr2Mkq_M

It does highlight another thing I was thinking though, and that is how early Kimi was on the brakes. It doesn't look like Lewis attempted an overtake at all, simply had to avoid him and it wasn't as if it was late braking either as he was going what seems to be the optimal speed for the corner..

I'm losing interest in it now, but what I will say is I think when the decision is worth that much to the drivers involved I would want far less mitigating evidence if I were making the decision. Since the move had no effect on Massa I don't think the penalty should have been made. If Kimi had finished the race I might think otherwise but he stuffed it.

[Shameless]

Terrible judgment thoughout this race,all of which which underminds Formula 1

1# KM: Uses a tarmac runoff to maintain momentum on Hamilton = No investigation
2# Massa's car is repaired whist in Parc Firme! = No investigation

2700 signatures at present

http://www.petitiononline.com/belgp08/petition.html

[TAKTAK]

Originally Posted by Shameless

2700 signatures at present

http://www.petitiononline.com/belgp08/petition.html

3060 now...

it's going up hella fast...

edit: 3091

edit: 3117

edit: 3131

[staffsMike]

Highlights are on now if anyone wants to watch it.

[chuckskull]

If you watch on the way into the chicane lewis has to snap the car left to avoid running into the back of him. Looks like Hamilton was much faster, especially in the braking zones and just trying to avoid hitting him more than anything else.

Into the first corner kimi brakes early again and lewis went up the inside, the only place he could realistically of gone. After watching a bit more of it, it looks like kimi's tactic was to try and force lewis into a mistake, both when he's in front and behind. Unless Kimi was having quite big problems slowing down, which seems odd from one of the top teams in the sport and Massa didn't seem to have as much trouble, though admittedly, I doubt he was pushing as hard.

If forcing a mistake was the name of the game, being stripped of the victory is a pretty big mistake. Perhaps he should have let him past again after the first corner and taken him later on, but I wouldn't have and he didn't really have much time to play with.

EDIT: http://www.itv-f1.com/news_article.aspx?id=43863 Seems Ferrari didn't complain to the stewards about it.

[this_is_gav]

Originally Posted by j1979

this is exaggerated somewhat, but i do feel he had no choice, hamilton was ahead before the corner (just) and gave the place up on the straight. + he had nowhere else to go, Raikkonen was not on the race line either.

Rushed or not, it's irrelavent. Kimi reovertook Hamilton fair and square. You need to be at least half a car length ahead to claim the corner, and Kimi was. He left it in Hamilton's hands. Take him off (and get a penalty), back off and slot in behind, losing time, or miss the chicane. He chose to miss the chicane, yet gained time by doing so than he would have lost before hand. No one, even McLaren, are even arguing about Kimis move in the chicane, because they know it's perfectly legit.

Check out this onboard vid from Hamilton: Youtube. You can see how little he attempted to stay within the confines of the track, how he slotted in behind Kimi immediately, and how he gained from being in such a position, which he'd never have been in if he'd stuck to the track. AKA getting an advantage through cutting the course.

25 seconds is a harsh penalty for such an offence, but it's fixed in the rules. It's not a penalty which can be altered in all but the most unfair of situations (and this is about as clear cut as they come).

Originally Posted by Shameless

Terrible judgment thoughout this race,all of which which underminds Formula 1

1# KM: Uses a tarmac runoff to maintain momentum on Hamilton = No investigation
2# Massa's car is repaired whist in Parc Firme! = No investigation

Is that Kimi Massa then?

Originally Posted by Shameless

2700 signatures at present

http://www.petitiononline.com/belgp08/petition.html

ROFL. I bet none of them have even downloaded the sporting regulations and are just British fanboys gutted at seeing their hero stripped of victory.

[staffsMike]

Two things to ask you, this_is_gav, genuine questions set aside from all the emotion because quite frankly I'm bored of this already

What did you think of Kimi's braking into that last corner? A tad early?

And do you think Kimi deserves a penalty not for that incident but for a couple of minutes later when he runs off the track and continues to drive off the track for some time before slotting in back behind Hamilton?

[Saracen]

I'd been an F1 fan for years .... decades, in fact, but had got totally bored with it in the last few years. I had just about started to regain a bit of interest, but it looks as if the powers that be still have the same mindset.

I can't see any way Hamilton deserved this. I watched it live and have reviewed the recording again and again. Hamilton had nowhere to go but where he did. If he even braked (hard enough to drop back behind Raikonnen) at the point Raikonnen slammed the door, and bearing in mind they both had weakening grip by then, there's a good chance he'd have taken them both out. He went where he had to go, because Raikonnen closed over to the side of the track where Hamilton was, and left about a foot between the while line and his own car.

As far as I'm concerned, this decision completely distorts the race results. Had Raikonnen still been in, and it'd been handed to him, well, maybe. But Massa was nowhere near, and had NO chance of catching Hamilton. Hamilton was putting space between them, quite markedly.

We have cars designed to the limits of the rules set out by the racing authorities, and the result is such that despite clearly having a far faster car (at that point and on primary tyres), Hamilton was able to easily catch Raikonnen but, short of trying a move something like this, was going have difficulty getting past. And that doesn't make for a race, it makes for a high-speed procession round the circuit, with the results far too often determined by someone making a mistake, mechanical problems or, God help us, the performance of the pit crew.

Essentially, the cars are just far to quick for the circuit design, and it makes overtaking, at least among the race leaders, almost impossible unless you can try this sort of manoeuvre.

This decision has completely destroyed what slight burgeoning interest I had in F1, and confirmed my previous view that the people that run it have ruined it.

I have watched my last F1 race.


And, incidentally, I'm not a Hamilton fan-boy, before anyone says it. I'm not enough of a fan of F1 to care who wins either a race, or the Championship. What I care about is having some actual racing .... some real, driver-to-driver challenges, where it isn't determined by the kind of thing I mentioned earlier or, to an even greater extent, the wallet-size of the team and their development budget.

This was a bit of actual racing, one of the few bits we've seen in F1 in recent years. Hamilton was pushing the limits to get past, and Raikonnen was pushing the limits to stop him. Good, because it had me on the edge of my seat. And what happens? The stewards stick their oars in. THEY ruin the sport with this kind of antic and, so far as I'm concerned, they've finally managed to ruin it for me for good.

I understand there's to be an appeal. I don't much care, and personally, certainly don't care whether it succeeds or not, because the damage is done. My flagging interest had dropped back down to a flickering candle that was just starting to burn to bit brighter. The wind from the stewards has just blown it out, for good.

[this_is_gav]

Originally Posted by staffsMike

Two things to ask you, this_is_gav, genuine questions set aside from all the emotion because quite frankly I'm bored of this already

What did you think of Kimi's braking into that last corner? A tad early?

And do you think Kimi deserves a penalty not for that incident but for a couple of minutes later when he runs off the track and continues to drive off the track for some time before slotting in back behind Hamilton?

1) Early, probably not. Hamilton wasn't far behind, and he probably only broke 2-5 metre later. Chances are Kimi broke later than everyone else in the field at that point on that lap. He broke earlier than Hamilton, and in hindsight, a tad early, yes but the margins are so fine in those conditions that it's understandable.

2) According to the rules, yes. But then I'm struggling to think of an incident where a penalty has been applied for driving off the side of the track, rather than cutting it in a left-right or right-left situation. There'd have been something like 20-40 drive through penalties this season if that were the case, and probably 10-15 of them at this race alone (look at lap 1 at La Source for instance). Don't forget Hamilton also drove off the track there and received no penalty, and from the onboard, it didn't look like Raikkonen gained from going all the way around the outside.

[this_is_gav]

Originally Posted by Saracen

I can see any way Hamilton deserved this. I watched it live and have reviewed the recording again and again. Hamilton has nowhere to go but where he did. If he even braked (hard enough to drop back nehind Raikonnen) at the point Raikonnen slammed the door, and bearing in mind they both had weakening grip by then, there's a good chance he'd have taken them both out. He went where he had to go, because Raikonnen closed over to the side of the track where Hamilton was, and left about a foot between the while line and his own car.

Hamilton didn't get a penalty for cutting the course...

[GoNz0]

FIA = ferrari improvement association

some things will never change

[staffsMike]

But technically he did gain from it, because he didn't come back onto the track at the earliest opportunity

I'm just joking around now anyway, time to move on I think. To be perfectly honest, if Ferrari didn't complain (as they suggest they didn't) I think it should have been left to the drivers and as the incident had no real remarkable impact on the race, unless you are going to start citing the butterfly effect on Kimi's behalf it should have been overlooked, in any and all cases like this.

[Sk!mD4Rk]

Putting my chav hat on, *At the end of the day, it makes the championship a bit more interesting than it would have been, you get meh*

I must say, Saracens post just above, for me, it ABSOLUTELY hits the nail on the proverbial.

Technology DOES have a place in F1, and that isn't in the car or cockpit, bring back gearsticks as well!!

[Nick]

It's all been more than a bit boring since the Mansell/Senna days... which is why I no longer watch F1 and go for BTCC instead.

[Saracen]

Originally Posted by this_is_gav

Hamilton didn't get a penalty for cutting the course...

Where did I say he did? So what's your point?


But, I defer to what the stewards say their reason for the penalty was, which was

Cut the chicane and gained an advantage

So, we all know that going off the track, or cutting a corner, in and of itself, isn't an offence. Nor did I say it was, or that it was what got him penalised. But it WAS the act of cutting the corner that the stewards penalised him for, because in their opinion, he gained an advantage. That quote, by the way, is a direct quote from the official letter issued by the stewards about the incident, and it is also a full and complete quote (not edited in any way) of what they state as the facts.