Servers

[[GSV]Trig]

Build your own or buy in an IBM or something like that?

At some point in the next 3/6 months I'm going to retire our 2 Dell servers (and hopefully take them home )
Now the question is do I build one myself or do I just go buy an IBM or something off the shelf so to speak?
It wont be the main server as far as work is concerned, that'll still be our IBM server that runs our Strategix system but the new one will handle all the login/filestorage/email needs for the company and replace the old Novell 4 server we have that currently does login/filestorage stuff and a 2k server which does filestorage and email...
Neither of the servers I'm replacing is anything flashy, there old dell poweredge things, P3-450, 512Mb, ~40gb storage, cdrom, tapedrive, thats about it..

I'd like something thats gonna last a good 3 years which concidering what the current systems are shouldnt be too hard, possibly AMD64, dual board so if needed can stick an extra chip in there and also have the ability to go 64bit OS as and when theres something out there..

Discuss as the thread grows

[Jiff Lemon]

Depends on what they're going to be doing; Generally I'd buy in for anything a business is going to rely on - IBM/Dell/Compaq.

Why? Reliability, next day or same day on site support if you want it.

Yes, I'm sure you can build one yourself cheaper and be there to fix it if it went wrong. But what if you're on holiday? or leave? or get a different position within the company? What if the supplier you got the board from goes Bust? Asks you to return the component for testing before they're send a replacement?

Workstations a different matter; workstation dies, send user to another station. Server dies, you've hundreds of users to answer to.

[BlueMagician]

I've built a couple of servers in the past, and I can honestly say IMHO, that building servers is NOT worth it - in the money you save, the support you lose, and the little recognition you'll get for offering to do it.

So what if you can hand build a server full of cherry-picked components for 25% less than one of the big boys - at the end of the day it's always gonna be YOUR headache if anything goes wrong.


For something so critical, best to pays yer money to someone like Dell/IBM, and have them as a solution provider to fall back on if things go pear shaped.


£0.02
S.

[nichomach]

Agreed; listen, even on the PE2650 that I got from Dell Outlet at less than half price (not normally where I pick up my servers, but it was just too good to miss) when it turned up with a wonky RAID controller they shipped me a replacement promptly. No arguments.

As far as Opterons are concerned, Systemax seem to have a good range. I haven't bought one from them myself, but their servers seem to get good writeups, and if I were in the market for one, I wouldn't be worried about buying from them. The 3565 looks like a good option and has a 3yr onsite warranty.

[DR]

Buy in - never build one. Not worth it.

[0iD]

I got a loverly pair of Quad Opteron babies sitting behind me Cant build that kinda lovelyness yourself. Better off getting something 'off the shelf'.

[nichomach]

Mmmmm...you been talking to HP's ProLiant people or something, 0iD?

Actually, thinking about Opterons, Sun do some stonking Opteron boxes and they're not ludicrously expensive either. Depends what you want (yes, they'll run Windows Server quite happily ).

Sun

[[GSV]Trig]

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Dell Inc. - The Dell Store

Basket Summary downloaded on 1/28/2005

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===============================================================================
Dell recommends Microsoft® Windows® XP Professional
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-* Dell PowerEdge™ 2800 *-
==========================
Quantity : 1
Total excl.VAT : £7,047
Total incl.VAT : £8,280.23


Standard Features
=================
Support for the latest dual Xeon processors with 1MB L2 cache and hyper-threading technology, with Intel Exteneded Memory 64 Technology (EM64T) capability.
Intel® high performance E7520 Chipset - Utilising 800MHz front side bus,
Up to 12GB ECC DDR2 (400MHz) SDRAM memory (6 DIMM Sockets) using a dual channel architecure.Memory availability is enhanced by features such as Chipkill and options for spare row and memory mirroring.
Space - saving tool-less chassis - available as tower or 5U rack-mountable
Seven slots in total : 2x hot-pluggable PCI Express slots (one x4 and one x8)
4x PCI-X 64 bit/133MHz , 1x32 bit/33MHz PCI (5V)
Dual embedded Intel Gigabit NICs, with load balancing and failover support (Intel 82541)
Dual embedded Ultra 320 LVD SCSI controller (LSI logic 53C1030)
Optional embedded dual channel PERC 4e/Di Ultra3320 RAID controller, with 256MB of battery backed cache to protect your data.
Hot-plug hard drives, hot plug redundant fans and optional hot-plug redundant power supplies.
Storage Expansion for up to eight 1" hot-plug Ultra320 SCSI hard drives (with split backplane optionoffering 2 drive channels for 2x 4 configuration)
Embedded Baseboard Management Controller (BMC) with serial or network access and IPMI 1.5 compliance
Optional embedded remote server management card (DRAC 4/i)supports graphical and console redirection and virtual media.
The Dell OpenManage suite to enable automated/rapid operating system installation, and complete network management with IT Assistant.
30-day Getting Started Support - Technical support for new installations.
Purchase your preferred Operating System from Dell and we will factory install it free of charge.

Premier Enterprise Support (PE2800)
===================================
3 Years Silver On-Site Service with 4 Hour Response (24x7) (-GBP - £477)

Business Installation (PE2800)
==============================
No installation

Chassis Orientation Options (PE2800)
====================================
Tower Chassis

Rack Mount Kit (PE2800)
=======================
Not Included

Bezel Options (PE2800)
======================
Not Included

Hot-Plug Power Supplies (PE2800)
================================
One Non-Redundant Power Supply

Processor(s)/Cache (PE2800)
===========================
One Intel® Xeon processor 2.8GHz with 1MB L2 cache

Memory (PE2800)
===============
2GB DDR2 SDRAM (2x1GB 400MHz DIMMs) (+ GBP £345)

Optional Internal 3.5" Floppy Disk Drive (PE2800)
=====================================================
3.5" Internal Floppy Disk Drive (+ GBP £14)

Internal Optical Storage Devices and Recordable Media (PE2800)
==============================================================
CD-RW/DVD Combo drive with Roxio Software (+ GBP £91)

1st Main Bay Hard Drive (PE2800)
================================
36GB U320 15,000 rpm 80-pin SCSI HDD (hot plug) (+ GBP £36)

2nd Main Bay Hard Drive (PE2800)
================================
36GB U320 15,000 rpm 80-pin SCSI HDD (hot plug) (+ GBP £176)

3rd Main Bay Hard Drive (PE2800)
================================
36GB U320 15,000 rpm 80-pin SCSI HDD (hot plug) (+ GBP £176)

4th Main Bay Hard Drive (PE2800)
================================
36GB U320 15,000 rpm 80-pin SCSI HDD (hot plug) (+ GBP £176)

5th Main Bay Hard Drive (PE2800)
================================
Not Included

6th Main Bay Hard Drive (PE2800)
================================
Not Included

7th Main Bay Hard Drive (PE2800)
================================
Not Included

8th Main Bay Hard Drive (PE2800)
================================
Not Included

Extra Internal Hard Drives (Media Bay) (PE2800)
===============================================
Two 73Gb 10,000RPM 1" hot-plug Ultra 320 SCSI media bay drive & cage (+ GBP £542)

1st RAID or SCSI Controller Card (PE2800)
=========================================
Not Included (use on board SCSI)

2nd RAID or SCSI Controller Card (PE2800)
=========================================
Not Included (use on board SCSI)

Internal Hard Drive Configuration - Simple (PE2800)
===================================================
C4 RAID 5 using embedded RAID controller- requires three or more identical hard drives

Internal Hard Drive Configuration - Complex (PE2800)
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C10 RAID 5 for internal drives, RAID1 for hard drives in media bay, using embedded RAID controller

Internal PowerVault Tape Backup Drives (Media Bay) (PE2800)
===========================================================
PV110T 100GB LTO1 Tape drive, Internal, 39160 SCSI Controller, including all cables (+ GBP £1,582)

Tape Backup Essentials for PowerVault Tape Drives (PE2800)
==========================================================
LTO cleaning cartridge (for LTO1 and LTO2 drives) (+ GBP £51)
LTO1 cartridge, 100/200 GB, 5-pack (+ GBP £119)

Premier Enterprise Software Support (PE2800)
============================================
None

Additional Network Card(s) (PE2800)
===================================
Intel® Pro 100S NIC (+ GBP £34)

Communications (PE2800)
=======================
56Kbps Lurch Modem (+ GBP £20)

Advanced Remote Management (PE2800)
===================================
No DRAC 4 required

OpenManage Subscription Service (PE2800)
========================================
No OpenManage Subscription

Monitors
========
Not Included

Mouse
=====
Not Included (-GBP - £7)

Keyboard
========
Not Included (-GBP - £24)

PowerConnect Network Switch
===========================
PC 3348 Managed Stackable Switch (48port, 10/100 + 2 Gigabit Ports) (+ GBP £399)

Uninterruptible Power Supplies (PE2800)
=======================================
APC Smart-UPS 1500i, 980W (+ GBP £264)

Factory Installed Operating System (PowerEdge)
==============================================
Microsoft Windows Server 2003, Enterprise Edition with 25 Client Licenses (+ GBP £1,731)

Non-Factory Installed Operating Systems
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Not Included

System Documentation (PE2800)
=============================
User and Troubleshooting guides (+ GBP £10)

Advanced Software Support
=========================
No Software & Storage support included



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SUMMARY OF PRICING

Total Price of System
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Price excl.VAT : £7,047
VAT Rate : 17.5%
Price incl.VAT : £8,280.23
Total Delivery Charge
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Price excl.VAT : £49
VAT Rate : 17.5%
Price incl.VAT : £57.58

===============================================================

Total excl.VAT : £7,096
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Price to pay excl. VAT : £7,096
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[nichomach]

Errr...Trig, you're going to need to select a RAID controller, even if only enabling the onboard one to do your RAID5. Give me a few minutes.

edit: You could get them to use the PERC4 embedded controller, that'd add about £142. Myself, I would opt for the PERC4e/DC RAID controller add-in (uses PCI express slot). Reason being that if anything happens to the machine (short on motherboard, something like that) there's a good chance you could hoik out the card and the drives and drop them into another chassis.

I've got a 2850 (rackmount) version here, and it's a good quick box.

[0iD]

Originally Posted by nichomach

Mmmmm...you been talking to HP's ProLiant people or something, 0iD?

No, these peeps> http://www.rainbow-it.co.uk/

[BlueMagician]

Also, have you selected an appropriate hotswap backblane for the 4x15k drives? - I might have missed that.

S.

[[GSV]Trig]

I ticked the UPS box
Basically I need to tell the boss I'm spending 10k on a new server lol

[Vimeous]

Buy not build.
Look at places like uk.insight.com for extra licenses, you could save a fortune.
Look at www.scan.co.uk at Maxtor Atlas V SCA U320 SCSI drive prices. The Perc 4i controllers are easy to configure and support 40 individual RAID arrays so you can easily do that your self. I'd suggest buying the drives you need for the OS and get the remainder + caddies (pain to find but should only be £10-15 each) from elsewhere.

Can you get the switch elsewhere and with the money saved from all the above get a bigger 300Gb or 400Gb max tape drive? Further future proofing of your backup solution may be a great selling point to Da Boss.

If you go for a Dell 2600 or 2800 get a bezel and redundant PSU (you seem to have missed them) to make 'em look pretty

[nichomach]

Description Quantity Total excl.VAT £7,635
FEBRUARY SPECIAL - Dell PowerEdge™ 2800


Premier Enterprise Support (PE2800): 3 Years Silver On-Site Service with 4 Hour Response (24x7) (+ GBP £313)
Chassis Orientation Options (PE2800): Tower Chassis
Hot-Plug Power Supplies (PE2800): Dual Hot Plug Power Supply for Redundancy (+ GBP £203)
Processor(s)/Cache (PE2800): Dual Intel® Xeon processor 2.8GHz with 1MB L2 cache (+ GBP £280)
Memory (PE2800): 2GB DDR2 SDRAM (2x1GB 400MHz DIMMs) (+ GBP £345)
Optional Internal 3.5" Floppy Disk Drive (PE2800): 3.5" Internal Floppy Disk Drive (+ GBP £14)
Internal Optical Storage Devices and Recordable Media (PE2800): CD-RW/DVD Combo drive with Roxio Software (+ GBP £91)
Main Bay Hard Drive Backplane (PE2800): 2x4 Split Backplane (+ GBP £68)
1st Main Bay Hard Drive (PE2800): 73GB U320 15,000 rpm 80-pin SCSI HDD (hot plug) (+ GBP £119)
2nd Main Bay Hard Drive (PE2800): 73GB U320 15,000 rpm 80-pin SCSI HDD (hot plug) (+ GBP £339)
3rd Main Bay Hard Drive (PE2800): 36GB U320 15,000 rpm 80-pin SCSI HDD (hot plug) (+ GBP £176)
4th Main Bay Hard Drive (PE2800): 36GB U320 15,000 rpm 80-pin SCSI HDD (hot plug) (+ GBP £176)
5th Main Bay Hard Drive (PE2800): 36GB U320 15,000 rpm 80-pin SCSI HDD (hot plug) (+ GBP £176)
6th Main Bay Hard Drive (PE2800): 36GB U320 15,000 rpm 80-pin SCSI HDD (hot plug) (+ GBP £176)
7th Main Bay Hard Drive (PE2800): Not Included
8th Main Bay Hard Drive (PE2800): Not Included
Extra Internal Hard Drives (Media Bay) (PE2800): Two 73Gb 10,000RPM 1" hot-plug Ultra 320 SCSI media bay drive & cage (+ GBP £542)
1st RAID or SCSI Controller Card (PE2800): PERC4e/DC U320 RAID Controller 128MB Cache(channels: 2xINT, 0xEXT) (+ GBP £339)
2nd RAID or SCSI Controller Card (PE2800): PERC4e/DC U320 RAID Controller 128MB Cache(channels: 0xINT, 2xEXT) (+ GBP £339)
Internal Hard Drive Configuration - Complex (PE2800): C23 RAID 1 and RAID 5 disk arrays for internal hard drives, using add-in RAID controller and split backplane, 2 Drives in RAID 1 in media bay
Internal PowerVault Tape Backup Drives (Media Bay) (PE2800): PV110T 100GB LTO1 Tape drive, Internal, 39160 SCSI Controller, including all cables (+ GBP £1,582)
Tape Backup Essentials for PowerVault Tape Drives (PE2800): LTO cleaning cartridge (for LTO1 and LTO2 drives) (+ GBP £51)
LTO1 cartridge, 100/200 GB, 5-pack (+ GBP £119)
Premier Enterprise Software Support (PE2800): None
Additional Network Card(s) (PE2800): Intel® Pro 100S NIC (+£34)
Communications (PE2800): 56Kbps Lurch Modem (+ GBP £20)
Mouse: DELL 2 Button Mouse & Mouse Pad with Dell Logo
Keyboard: DELL Entry (QWERTY) Midnight Grey Keyboard
PowerConnect Network Switch: PC 3348 Managed Stackable Switch (48port, 10/100 + 2 Gigabit Ports) (+ GBP £399)
Uninterruptible Power Supplies (PE2800): APC Smart-UPS 1500i, 980W (+ GBP £264)
Factory Installed Operating System (PowerEdge): Microsoft Windows Server 2003, Standard Edition with 5 Client Licenses (+ GBP £461)
System Documentation (PE2800): User and Troubleshooting guides (+ GBP £10)

Basically, 2x73GB drives in RAID1 for your OS and any apps (you say it's going to be handling mail - Exchange?), 4 in RAID5 for your data and two in the media bay in RAID1 (I assume that forms part of your backup strategy?). Split backplane with an add-in RAID controller to handle two channels (1 for the two 73GB OS drives in RAID1, one for the 4 drives in RAID5); that takes up one PCIe slot, the second RAID controller is to handle the RAID1 in the media bay (the second MAY not be necessary, check with DELL's server people, they may be able to run both the internal arrays off one channel of the PERC4e). 2nd processor because if you're running Exchange you WILL need it. Redundant PSU. Because they fritz. Even if on a UPS it can happen. I assume you'll use the dual embedded Gig ports into the two Gig ports on your switch.

You DON'T need the Enterprise version of Windows Server; that would only be necessary if you had more than 4GB of memory or were doing clustering or that sort of stuff. Buy the standard version and get your CALs elsewhere, they run to about £22, so 20 plus the 5 you get w/Standard server is still way less than you'd spend on Enterprise with 25 CALs.

Just a suggestion; check with Dell regarding how many controllers you'd need.

I think you may be going a bit light with the RAID5 array though; they fill up quite fast and I'd be tempted to bite the bullet and get 73s now rather than have to replace them later.

MORE edit: Listen that backup device is going to cost a LOT for the capacity; have you considered getting an external device from elsewhere? I use an AIT3 autoloader, but that was £2499 ex VAT (800GB native capacity though )

Your £1500 could get you something like an iomega Rev autoloader, or DAT72 autoloader either of which have a greater native capacity.

[Vimeous]

My personal preference for RAID configs is 0 + 1.
300Gb SCSI disks have started to appear from Maxtor so prices of smaller capacities may drop (anyone heard anything?).
If you do go with 0 + 1 will the extra speed of the 15000rpm drives really be needed?
How about 2x73Gb 15k RAID 1 for OS, 4x73Gb 10k RAID 0 + 1 in place of the 36's and then your external arrangements. You could even use the money saved on 15k drives to switch to 146Gb 10k versions and make it a storage daddy!

[nichomach]

I've actually got 4 of the 146GB 10,000s in my 2850 (in RAID5) and they are quick. It's a personal preference thing, I suppose, but as far as saving on the 15ks and getting more capacity for the money, I'd agree with Vimeous.