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Thread: News - Second-hand gaming cost Heavy Rain one million sales

  1. #49
    Keep it sexy Zhaoman's Avatar
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    Re: News - Second-hand gaming cost Heavy Rain one million sales

    Quote Originally Posted by CAT-THE-FIFTH View Post
    You could make the same argument about secondhand CDs and DVDs for example(I did also mention these too). You might not realise this but at least before the 1980s it was common for people to tape music off the radio even with the latest tracks. Imagine how much money was lost by record companies and artists(to a lesser degree) too.
    I think it comes down to people's attitudes towards the products. Console games at £40 are a serious investment for a lot of people and being offered the same product experience in the same shop for £32 is going to look tempting to anyone; especially when they're already available a lot of the time shortly after, or sometimes even on, launch day. CDs and DVDs are in a different price bracket and are generally much more affordable than games. It's like comparing socks with blazers, people will try to get as much of a saving as they can on the more expensive product.

    The game makers are selling a brand new experience, which when bought and consumed fully by a customer, can then be sold on as a product that is identical to the experience the original makers are still trying to sell. This is a pretty unique situation for an expensive (some would consider luxury) item.

    I'm not advocating the course of action the makers of Heavy Rain, and other studios, have taken and I fully agree that we should be allowed to sell on items of our own possession! But maybe consideration should at least be given that this issue is a little different to buying and selling traditional products second-hand because of the nature of the media and its price bracket.

    Oh and I used to tape songs from the radio as a child in the 90s

    P.S. Saracen while the manual may not be in the best condition, I hope the game experience is ultimately the thing you decided to fork out your money for!
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  2. #50
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    Re: News - Second-hand gaming cost Heavy Rain one million sales

    I do empathise with the developers; all that work and investment and people getting access without contributing. I support all types of games from Kickstarter projects to the big summer blockbusters, and I'd loath a future where tent-pole releases aren't possible because the market can no longer support them. It's an extremely rare occurrence for me to buy pre-owned, although I do borrow a mate's copy of a console game now and again for a title I probably wouldn't have touched otherwise. (I guess that makes me a bit of a hypocrite.)

    It's only a matter of time before this all becomes a non-issue. As soon as content moves completely online you can kiss goodbye to the whole pre-owned market. Just like Steam is right now, licenses for content will be forever tied to the account holder. Either that, or it'll go subscription based. Areas which don't contain suitable infrastructure could be supported with region-locked retail releases until they do.

    In the meantime though, the pre-owned market could continue through the use of single-use codes. These have, largely, been used to unlock multi-player content. Personally, I don't think that goes far enough since the vast majority of gamers don't touch multi-player, at least not the online portion. In my view, id is taking the correct approach. They're locking out a portion of the single-player experience for users without a code. Second-users can still buy a code in addition to their pre-owned title and still support future development. So long as pricing remains fair, I don't find that offensive.
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    Re: News - Second-hand gaming cost Heavy Rain one million sales

    Quote Originally Posted by Zhaoman View Post
    I'm not advocating the course of action the makers of Heavy Rain, and other studios, have taken and I fully agree that we should be allowed to sell on items of our own possession! But maybe consideration should at least be given that this issue is a little different to buying and selling traditional products second-hand because of the nature of the media and its price bracket.
    Why should they? They've already got a special monopoly right on distribution. Why on Earth do they deserve any more special treatment for an intangible product? If you sell a license, you relinquish ownership of it. It's that simple.
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    Re: News - Second-hand gaming cost Heavy Rain one million sales

    Actually not that many games come with manuals now and when they do they are normally small and limited.

    Not like the old tomes you used to get.

    I've still got the "Diary of a (Mad?) man" that came with dreamweb (and the original game someplace) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dreamweb

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    Re: News - Second-hand gaming cost Heavy Rain one million sales

    When I was a kid, my dad bought SimLife for me, but one of the floppy disks didn't work, so I just used to sit in bed reading this huge brick of a manual, imagining what a great game it was.

    Needless to say, I got it about 10 years later and it turned out to be terrible. Certainly as far as kids' games go anyway.


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    Re: News - Second-hand gaming cost Heavy Rain one million sales

    Pob, me too, awesome game too

    and game manufacturers can get off their high horses when they stop charging for avatar awards, itens that should have been unlockable and content that is actually available at time of release.

    I have no qualms about paying for map packs or extra missions/areas in games, such as Fallout, Cod, Halo etc but weapons in Crackdown, cars in Burnout/Dirt or a lightsaber for an avatar I dressed and forgot about? I don't think so.

    I know what my avatar looks like, have no idea what anyone on my friends list looks like, that tells me something
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    Re: News - Second-hand gaming cost Heavy Rain one million sales

    Quote Originally Posted by pauldarkside View Post
    In the meantime though, the pre-owned market could continue through the use of single-use codes. These have, largely, been used to unlock multi-player content. Personally, I don't think that goes far enough since the vast majority of gamers don't touch multi-player, at least not the online portion. In my view, id is taking the correct approach. They're locking out a portion of the single-player experience for users without a code. Second-users can still buy a code in addition to their pre-owned title and still support future development. So long as pricing remains fair, I don't find that offensive.
    Grrr a little more reflection and I'm now going to argue against what I thought was, and had accepted as fair.

    What if that model, a single-use code, was applied to the music or film industry? Music with missing instruments, or a film with one of the characters missing. If it's fair for one industry then surely it's fair for another.
    My only concern is should I hide my true identity? A costume maybe?

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    Re: News - Second-hand gaming cost Heavy Rain one million sales

    Quote Originally Posted by Zhaoman View Post
    ....

    P.S. Saracen while the manual may not be in the best condition, I hope the game experience is ultimately the thing you decided to fork out your money for!
    Indeed it is, but some people are fussy. For instance, I wouldn't buy a high-priced limited edition because it's got a plastic figurine, or a cloth map, or a metal box, etc, but some people do. But it wasn't just that. It's also the time differential.

    Buying something new and buying it second-hand are somehow psychologically different. It's perhaps most notable with cars - there's something different about buying something and knowing nobody has had it before you. And with cars, by 'eck does buying knew often cost you. Which is why a lot of people won't do it. But that intangible is worth it to others.
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    Re: News - Second-hand gaming cost Heavy Rain one million sales

    Quote Originally Posted by CAT-THE-FIFTH View Post
    You have missed the point entirely.
    no, you have. if you read what some others have posted afterwards, they seem to get it and explain it

    second hand has been around for years, but sales were a low percentage compared to new sales due to the second hand outlets

    i compare it to piracy that was likewise relatively low before p2p and increased dramatically when napster and p2p became common and piracy became a real problem

    when the main high street retailers sell second hand goods on the same shelves as new products, and online in their well known stores, it changes things completely

    as other have mentioned, things are tight for many just now, so stores doing this and offering cheaper products has a big appeal to customers, but the downside is the affect developers, and with an already difficult market with piracy, the banking crisis and everything else, it's a big blow to developers and one they really don't need at this particularly difficult time

    imagine if hmv, virgin, woolworths etc sold second hand records and tapes in the 80s before cds came out, you would have a similar problem with the music market, and likewise with cds and videos before the cd burner period

    this is very different to people taping songs from records, as people needed to know someone who owned the record to do that. p2p meant people didn't need to know anyone to get their hands on products. likewise this makes it much more easy for people to choose second hand. for example, can you imagine parents taking kids to smaller second hand shops and places like CEX that are slightly off the beaten route, instead of nipping into hmv or game after going to marks and spencers?

    the point they are making, which is a valid point, whether or not people agree with it, and i expect many won't, is it changes things greatly and moves the second hand market from being a small one to a huge one, one so big it is a real and substantial threat to brand new sales, on top of the existing and recent (in the last 10 years) problem of online piracy

    i think i've point the point across quite well, so hopefully you can understand

    personally i think they have a valid point, but whether or not they should get any more money from that market i'm not sure. my initial thoughts are no. what the stores have done isn't illegal, it's not quite unethical, but it's perhaps a little bit sneaky (for want of a better phrase), although the stores are also struggling, particularly the brick and morter ones, so they have to do whatever they can to keep in business, and if it affects other areas of the business right now they don't care, even if it kills the physical media market in a few years time. profits now are more important that potential profits in future when you are struggling to keep afloat

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    Re: News - Second-hand gaming cost Heavy Rain one million sales

    Quote Originally Posted by uni View Post
    instead of reducing the price, moving to DLC is the way forward. then they remove the two main problems in one go, piracy and second hand markets. give it a few years and games discs will go the same way as cds, with most people moving to mp3 type playback and discs left on shelves
    On the face of it a sensible suggestion. However, I've got a problem with this on a number of points. First off, the amount of data you're going to have to download - sure "everyone's" got broadband these days, but three big games could see you hitting 10GB, which is the limit of some folks' monthly allocation, (not me - thanks VM!).
    Second issue - whilst it'd be nice to think that "they" would use sensible systems like Steam (which everyone seems to like - and certainly didn't seem that bad when I tried it), you just know that one or two publishers (yes, I am looking at you EA!) would want their own stores. In which case, in short order we'd have the rest of the train of fools doing the same. And whilst that's not an objection in itself, I have experience with the variable quality of some of these stores (e.g. I never managed to get my free copy of HAWX3 because the retarded Ubisoft store and I could never find a mutually agreeable method of payment, and Ubisoft support were less than useful). Here's one place where consoles score big - at least you've got the known quantities of Nintendo Store/XBox Live/PlaystationNetwork.
    Quote Originally Posted by pauldarkside View Post
    In the meantime though, the pre-owned market could continue through the use of single-use codes. These have, largely, been used to unlock multi-player content. Personally, I don't think that goes far enough since the vast majority of gamers don't touch multi-player, at least not the online portion. In my view, id is taking the correct approach. They're locking out a portion of the single-player experience for users without a code. Second-users can still buy a code in addition to their pre-owned title and still support future development. So long as pricing remains fair, I don't find that offensive.
    (Yes I know you later reconsidered the quote above). Intrinsically I've got no real objections if - as you say - the codes are available and at a fair price. For example, the necessary codes for Dirt3 and NeedForSpeed:HotPursuit are just under £7 on XBoxLive - which is just acceptable I guess, but certainly no bargain. That said, (as you yourself stated later), the idea that core parts of the game would be locked out - especially the single-player - is an anathema to me. Actually, I think I would probably avoid such "crippleware" - and would encourage others to express their disgust in a similar manner. In which case, let us hope that sense prevails and it never happens.

    For another view of this topic see http://www.vg247.com/2011/04/19/onli...ombat-creator/ - not that I agree with what's said in the slightest.

    To be honest I find myself a little weary these days, certainly not the enthusiasm that I had a year or two ago. For example, I'd invariable rush out and slap down a pre-order when a new CallOfDuty was announced (sometimes for more than one - e.g. PC and XBox), but this year I've still not done anything about it, and perhaps might even leave it until the price drops.

    It also says quite a lot about the way things are going that I'm very sure that I've bought far more game apps on phone and tablet this year than I have for my PC. In addition I'm now seeing gaps opening up on my XBox game shelf - more trade-ins than new content coming in I guess.
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    Re: News - Second-hand gaming cost Heavy Rain one million sales

    ^ the issue of download data is a big one, which is why i said "moving to is the way forward", meaning a way for the future

    a few years ago there were similar discussions about streaming movies online, but now many people do it from legit sites like netflix and itunes

    from what i understand, whilst some games are coming on multi discs, and of course ps3 has bluray, it might not be well known, but there is a lot of data on discs that is duplicated or not required if there was a move to the DLC format for all games

    a number of things need to be addressed for a full on move, such as storage space and bandwidth, but potentially future games may have more of a "cloud" effect in that more data is stored online and only fed to the consoles or computers as and when required. so no need to download level 42 of a game if you are only starting out. download 3 or 4 levels initially and download the rest in the background as you play, have traffic management systems so you can download offpeak at night etc

    as with iplayer, and other streaming and legal downloadable formats, as time goes on ISP's will recognise the legal requirement to do so and adjust accounts accordingly. i for example have 30 times the internet speed i had about 5 years ago for example. i could download about 12gb in an hour

    i think if the devs are unhappy with the second hand market they will actively look to cut it out where possible by DLC. remember itunes started with DRM to try and stop people copying music in a response to illegal napster downloads? it wasn't very good in most peoples opinion, but it was a kind of reaction to activities that content providers didn't like. i can see a similar reaction, whether the end results are good or bad. it may be good for the devs, but not for the consumer who then has to pay full price for a game and can't get cheaper in deals or second hand unless the dev changes prices

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    Militant Battle Moose! CAT-THE-FIFTH's Avatar
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    Re: News - Second-hand gaming cost Heavy Rain one million sales

    Quote Originally Posted by uni View Post
    no, you have. if you read what some others have posted afterwards, they seem to get it and explain it

    second hand has been around for years, but sales were a low percentage compared to new sales due to the second hand outlets

    i compare it to piracy that was likewise relatively low before p2p and increased dramatically when napster and p2p became common and piracy became a real problem

    when the main high street retailers sell second hand goods on the same shelves as new products, and online in their well known stores, it changes things completely

    as other have mentioned, things are tight for many just now, so stores doing this and offering cheaper products has a big appeal to customers, but the downside is the affect developers, and with an already difficult market with piracy, the banking crisis and everything else, it's a big blow to developers and one they really don't need at this particularly difficult time

    imagine if hmv, virgin, woolworths etc sold second hand records and tapes in the 80s before cds came out, you would have a similar problem with the music market, and likewise with cds and videos before the cd burner period

    this is very different to people taping songs from records, as people needed to know someone who owned the record to do that. p2p meant people didn't need to know anyone to get their hands on products. likewise this makes it much more easy for people to choose second hand. for example, can you imagine parents taking kids to smaller second hand shops and places like CEX that are slightly off the beaten route, instead of nipping into hmv or game after going to marks and spencers?

    the point they are making, which is a valid point, whether or not people agree with it, and i expect many won't, is it changes things greatly and moves the second hand market from being a small one to a huge one, one so big it is a real and substantial threat to brand new sales, on top of the existing and recent (in the last 10 years) problem of online piracy

    i think i've point the point across quite well, so hopefully you can understand

    personally i think they have a valid point, but whether or not they should get any more money from that market i'm not sure. my initial thoughts are no. what the stores have done isn't illegal, it's not quite unethical, but it's perhaps a little bit sneaky (for want of a better phrase), although the stores are also struggling, particularly the brick and morter ones, so they have to do whatever they can to keep in business, and if it affects other areas of the business right now they don't care, even if it kills the physical media market in a few years time. profits now are more important that potential profits in future when you are struggling to keep afloat
    No,you have still missed the point entirely having read all your posts. You seem to selectively read what you want to and you apply that to loads of peoples posts in this thread too who don't see things your way too and try to explain it.

    The fact is that multiple industries are struggling with sales during a time of recession and you can make all the fanciful excuses you want but secondhand sales are making serious dents in new purchases everywhere. Saracen pointed this out too(of course you ignored it).

    These include industries which invest billions of dollars in new products and who still cannot make profits or turn over very small ones. They also employ way more people too and arguably are more important to many countries economy. Yet they are not looking to limit or stop secondhand sales(organised or not) and it would benefit them much more.

    The games industry is not a special case. It sounds more like a load of people who had it good for a while and now when the recession hits and sales are down/profits are not high enough enough lash out at the customer. Unfortunately for them games are entertainment which is not high on the list of people when compared to essentials.

    Have you noticed that it is only the companies which don't reach their sales targets who are moaning?? It is never the companies who actually do. Secondhand sales affect them too but they seem to produce products people want to keep.

    Another factor you fail to realise is that you don't take online sales of games discs into account. A large percentage of pre-packaged games are bought online in the western world and if you have noticed high street stores are struggling(it is probably the reason why they are selling secondhand games in the first place) due to this. The same goes for music and DVDs too as highstreet stores cannot compete on both price and choice.

    So how many of these used games sold to stores, were purchased online??? How many were redeemed as store credit or cash??

    There are online secondhand sales but outside of Amazon marketplace and Ebay these are relatively small. In fact Ebay is easier to sell on and most people I know who would sell games,do so on Ebay as they get a better price. Amazon marketplace and Ebay have been around for over a decade.

    People who want to buy secondhand games from Amazon and Ebay are probably looking for them secondhand specifically so they can save money.

    So are you going to argue about massive online stores like Amazon who regularly price games under RRP at launch?? It is most likely they are squeezing distributors, games companies and publishers to achieve such pricing and they can do this since they buy games in massive quantities. It is down to companies like them that games seem to reduce in price relatively quickly. It is happening at far quicker rate than when highstreet stores used to be the main source of games sale.

    Maybe instead of reducing games at launch by say £5,they could keep to the RRP and give the £5 to the games developer instead.
    Last edited by CAT-THE-FIFTH; 13-09-2011 at 11:44 AM.

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    Re: News - Second-hand gaming cost Heavy Rain one million sales

    haha, maybe his game is overpriced when released and to counter the reduced cost of second hand market they shoudl reduce cost of title when bought new (after e.g 6 months)?

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    Re: News - Second-hand gaming cost Heavy Rain one million sales

    It sounds more like a load of people who had it good for a while and now when the recession hits and sales are down/profits are not high enough enough lash out at the customer.
    Have you noticed that it is only the companies which don't reach their sales targets who are moaning?? It is never the companies who actually do. Secondhand sales affect them too but they seem to produce products people want to keep.
    It looks like I was wrong.

    Heavy Rain was released in February 2010 and has sold 2 million copies.

    What was their original estimate??

    200,000 to 300,000 copies. They sold a million instead by April 2010.

    http://au.gamespot.com/news/6257359.html

    "We have sold more than 1 million copies of Heavy Rain worldwide," Quantic Dream cofounder and co-CEO David Cage told German site Play3.de. "That was a surprise to many, since estimated sales were between 200,000 to 300,000 units. We estimate that by the end of the year, we will have sold 1.5 million copies and are very pleased with the reception."

    So let me get this right. They sold 3 to 5 times their entire estimate in two to three months after release. The three month period after release is probably the period which most sales are made in. Then on top of this they sold another 1 million copies by April 2011:

    http://vghq.net/2011/03/06/heavy-rai...million-units/

    Their previous game sold 800000 copies since September 2005.

    However,50% of people did not want to keep it. This indicates either the game has no replay value or not many people CBA to finish it(some have mentioned this in the thread).

    Now,has the company looked at other console games on the PS3 and found out what the attach rates are,ie, what percentage of people have ditched the game after a similar time period?? Is Heavy Rain typical, or below average in attach rates?

    If below average perhaps the company needs to look at why people wanted to ditch their game so quickly. Sales are not the problem,attach rates seem to be.
    Last edited by CAT-THE-FIFTH; 13-09-2011 at 12:07 PM.

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    Re: News - Second-hand gaming cost Heavy Rain one million sales

    Quote Originally Posted by CAT-THE-FIFTH View Post
    No,you have still missed the point entirely having read all your posts. You seem to selectively read what you want to and you apply that to loads of peoples posts in this thread too who don't see things your way too and try to explain it.

    The fact is that multiple industries are struggling with sales during a time of recession and you can make all the fanciful excuses you want but secondhand sales are making serious dents in new purchases everywhere. Saracen pointed this out too(of course you ignored it).

    These include industries which invest billions of dollars in new products and who still cannot make profits or turn over very small ones. They also employ way more people too and arguably are more important to many countries economy. Yet they are not looking to limit or stop secondhand sales(organised or not) and it would benefit them much more.

    The games industry is not a special case. It sounds more like a load of people who had it good for a while and now when the recession hits and sales are down/profits are not high enough enough lash out at the customer. Unfortunately for them games are entertainment which is not high on the list of people when compared to essentials.

    Have you noticed that it is only the companies which don't reach their sales targets who are moaning?? It is never the companies who actually do. Secondhand sales affect them too but they seem to produce products people want to keep.

    Another factor you fail to realise is that you don't take online sales of games discs into account. A large percentage of pre-packaged games are bought online in the western world and if you have noticed high street stores are struggling(it is probably the reason why they are selling secondhand games in the first place) due to this. The same goes for music and DVDs too as highstreet stores cannot compete on both price and choice.

    So how many of these used games sold to stores, were purchased online??? How many were redeemed as store credit or cash??

    There are online secondhand sales but outside of Amazon marketplace and Ebay these are relatively small. In fact Ebay is easier to sell on and most people I know who would sell games,do so on Ebay as they get a better price. Amazon marketplace and Ebay have been around for over a decade.

    People who want to buy secondhand games from Amazon and Ebay are probably looking for them secondhand specifically so they can save money.

    So are you going to argue about massive online stores like Amazon who regularly price games under RRP at launch?? It is most likely they are squeezing distributors, games companies and publishers to achieve such pricing and they can do this since they buy games in massive quantities. It is down to companies like them that games seem to reduce in price relatively quickly. It is happening at far quicker rate than when highstreet stores used to be the main source of games sale.

    Maybe instead of reducing games at launch by say £5,they could keep to the RRP and give the £5 to the games developer instead.

    there is no selective reading from me. just because you were wrong and missed the point doesn't mean in turn i missed your point. it simply means i didn't give reasons why you were wrong

    you made comparisons to second hand car sales. you don't see an ad for a car on tv and go to the showroom and the guy says the car is £20k and has a line of them there and on the same car lot he has a line of the same car that's second hand but only £17k and you can pick if you want new or used from the same seller. that's not to mention that there is a big difference between cars and games in general, one being a high ticket item that takes time and consideration for most to purchase, and also cars generally providing the same function than any other, in they transport people and objects from one place to another, and to some may be considered a luxury item, but an essential or necessary one to others, when games aren't high ticket items, each is relatively different to another, and no-one needs them

    i can't think of any other form of retailing where the same retailer sells the same items brand new at the same time on the same premises as second hand items. you don't get hmv selling second hand copies of chart cds next to brand new copies, or likewise with dvds. you don't get hmv offering to sell you the new britney cd for £1 if you bring in the new westlife and take that album. you don't get the new xman dvd/bluray for £5 if you bring in avatar and the expendibles. but with games you do. the main high street and internet sellers are offering second hand copies of the latest games at the same time as brand new copies, but at reduced prices. so when you look online at amazon or play, you could choose a cheaper copy that's second hand but will provide the same end result, but no money goes to the dev whilst the retailer makes a profit

    ebay and CEX are very different to hmv, game, dixons, comet, etc in that you don't know exactly what you are going to get if you walk into CEX, it's a jumble sale of different second hand stuff in differing quality, tons of old crap, used, worn, no boxes etc. likewise ebay, it's an online lottery of second hand junk mixed with crap and maybe what you want. not to mention customers wouldn't generally go to ebay or CEX with the intention of buying a new product and ending up buying a second hand one instead. thus your CEX/ebayers aren't your target market, they go there because they have made the decision to buy second hand

    with hmv, play, amazon, game etc, customers can go there with the intention to buy new products, but be faced with second hand cheaper alternatives, and choose those instead, thus taking away new sales from potential customers of new sales

    can you understand now?

    piracy and second hand has been going on for years. that's a separate issue. the new issue is traditional retailers both online and brick and mortar who previously only sold new or mainly new products, now making a shift towards offering second hand products side by side and taking a large chunk of sales away from the new market, and that is a situation that is mainly an issue for the gaming industry. for example, look at last weeks cd, dvd, bluray releases and check play, amazon etc for second hand copies of them. there won't be anywhere near the same amount for sale as second hand copies of the latest games from the same companies. of course music and movies are quite a different market in that people will collect those items more than collectors of games, to build up a library at home, and people will watch movies and listen to music that's decades old, far more than people will play old games. games tend to have a far shorter life than music and movies, at least for the majority of consumers

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    Re: News - Second-hand gaming cost Heavy Rain one million sales

    Quote Originally Posted by uni View Post
    there is no selective reading from me. just because you were wrong and missed the point doesn't mean in turn i missed your point. it simply means i didn't give reasons why you were wrong
    Wrong?? Your argument is not even right in the first place.

    Just because many people don't agree does not make them wrong.

    Quote Originally Posted by uni View Post
    you made comparisons to second hand car sales. you don't see an ad for a car on tv and go to the showroom and the guy says the car is £20k and has a line of them there and on the same car lot he has a line of the same car that's second hand but only £17k and you can pick if you want new or used from the same seller. that's not to mention that there is a big difference between cars and games in general, one being a high ticket item that takes time and consideration for most to purchase, and also cars generally providing the same function than any other, in they transport people and objects from one place to another, and to some may be considered a luxury item, but an essential or necessary one to others, when games aren't high ticket items, each is relatively different to another, and no-one needs them
    A rubbish argument. Plenty of people will buy a lightly used car over a brand new one if it means £3000 saving and it is under warranty. The same goes with loads of products too.

    So,why should the games industry be insulated from the effects of the recession??

    Quote Originally Posted by uni View Post
    i can't think of any other form of retailing where the same retailer sells the same items brand new at the same time on the same premises as second hand items. you don't get hmv selling second hand copies of chart cds next to brand new copies, or likewise with dvds. you don't get hmv offering to sell you the new britney cd for £1 if you bring in the new westlife and take that album. you don't get the new xman dvd/bluray for £5 if you bring in avatar and the expendibles. but with games you do. the main high street and internet sellers are offering second hand copies of the latest games at the same time as brand new copies, but at reduced prices. so when you look online at amazon or play, you could choose a cheaper copy that's second hand but will provide the same end result, but no money goes to the dev whilst the retailer makes a profit
    Plenty of stores sell both secondhand and new items together. It is nothing new.

    So,why should the games industry be insulated from the effects of the recession??


    Quote Originally Posted by uni View Post
    ebay and CEX are very different to hmv, game, dixons, comet, etc in that you don't know exactly what you are going to get if you walk into CEX, it's a jumble sale of different second hand stuff in differing quality, tons of old crap, used, worn, no boxes etc. likewise ebay, it's an online lottery of second hand junk mixed with crap and maybe what you want. not to mention customers wouldn't generally go to ebay or CEX with the intention of buying a new product and ending up buying a second hand one instead. thus your CEX/ebayers aren't your target market, they go there because they have made the decision to buy second hand

    with hmv, play, amazon, game etc, customers can go there with the intention to buy new products, but be faced with second hand cheaper alternatives, and choose those instead, thus taking away new sales from potential customers of new sales

    can you understand now?
    Again,ignoring the massive impact of online sales. Can you understand yet??

    So,why should the games industry be insulated from the effects of the recession??


    Quote Originally Posted by uni View Post
    piracy and second hand has been going on for years. that's a separate issue. the new issue is traditional retailers both online and brick and mortar who previously only sold new or mainly new products, now making a shift towards offering second hand products side by side and taking a large chunk of sales away from the new market, and that is a situation that is mainly an issue for the gaming industry. for example, look at last weeks cd, dvd, bluray releases and check play, amazon etc for second hand copies of them. there won't be anywhere near the same amount for sale as second hand copies of the latest games from the same companies. of course music and movies are quite a different market in that people will collect those items more than collectors of games, to build up a library at home, and people will watch movies and listen to music that's decades old, far more than people will play old games. games tend to have a far shorter life than music and movies, at least for the majority of consumers
    Which is quite funny,that Heavy Rain has sold many times its original estimated sales. It means your argument(at least for Heavy Rain) is not really valid.

    So,why should the games industry be insulated from the effects of the recession??
    Last edited by CAT-THE-FIFTH; 13-09-2011 at 12:36 PM.

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