Page 1 of 5 1234 ... LastLast
Results 1 to 16 of 71

Thread: News - EA will build microtransactions into all its games

  1. #1
    HEXUS.admin
    Join Date
    Apr 2005
    Posts
    21,071
    Thanks
    0
    Thanked
    629 times in 305 posts

    News - EA will build microtransactions into all its games

    Many a mickle makes a muckle.
    Read more.

  2. #2
    Senior Member Smudger's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2005
    Location
    St Albans
    Posts
    2,192
    Thanks
    246
    Thanked
    255 times in 190 posts
    • Smudger's system
      • Motherboard:
      • Asus P5K-E
      • CPU:
      • Intel Core 2 Duo 8500
      • Memory:
      • 2x2gb Corsair XMS2 8500
      • Storage:
      • 1x200Gb Maxtor DiamondMax 10, 1x1Tb Samsung Spinpoint F1
      • Graphics card(s):
      • XFX Radeon HD4890 1GB
      • PSU:
      • Corsair HX520
      • Case:
      • Akasa Zen
      • Operating System:
      • Windows 7 Home Premium
      • Monitor(s):
      • Samsung 2232BW
      • Internet:
      • Virgin 60Mbit

    Re: News - EA will build microtransactions into all its games

    If this is the way games are going to go, I think I'll just stick with PS3 and VMs on the PC. GOG will probably get a lot more business out of this....

  3. #3
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jun 2004
    Location
    Kingdom of Fife (Scotland)
    Posts
    3,996
    Thanks
    283
    Thanked
    152 times in 137 posts
    • crossy's system
      • Motherboard:
      • ASUS Sabertooth 990FX Gen2
      • CPU:
      • AMD Phenom II 1090T / Noctua NH-D14
      • Memory:
      • 8GB Crucial Vengenance DDR3-1600
      • Storage:
      • 120GB Samsung EVO SSD, 500GB Samsung EVO SSD, 1TB WD Caviar Black, 2TB WD Caviar Green
      • Graphics card(s):
      • XFX 7970 Double D Black
      • PSU:
      • Corsair AX750 (modular)
      • Case:
      • Coolermaster HAF932 (with wheels)
      • Operating System:
      • Windows 7 Pro 64bit
      • Monitor(s):
      • LG Flattron W2361V
      • Internet:
      • VirginMedia 152Mb

    Re: News - EA will build microtransactions into all its games

    It’s no surprise that EA is sold on the microtransactions model but that these mini-payments will appear in ALL future EA titles might be a shock to some people. EA must feel, however, that the mini-payment complaints come from a vocal minority
    Pretty obvious move to me - in-app purchases are a great way to bump the price sky high without folks noticing. E.g. that news article on the BBC this morning where some little lad managed to spend £1700 (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-bristol-21620814). What got me in the interview with his mum was that she seemed to be saying that a single DLC pack was nearly £70.

    I've got caught myself where a "free" game turns out to be feature limited unless you spend on it. I don't mind so much the optional stuff like in Dead Trigger where you can buy in game money rather than earn it, what does get my hackles raised is where you need to spend that money to actually play the game to an extent more than a demo. Thankfully most of my recent purchases have been on the Amazon app store where at least they do warn you of in app purchases.

    Getting back to the EA thing, presumably because they're "leveraging" this new payment method, the "sticker price" of games will fall. So presumably Battlefield 4 on the PC will be <£20 new?

    Actually no, I can't see that happening either.

    I've been "devolved" ... does it show?

  4. Received thanks from:

    OilSheikh (02-03-2013)

  5. #4
    Senior Member Smudger's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2005
    Location
    St Albans
    Posts
    2,192
    Thanks
    246
    Thanked
    255 times in 190 posts
    • Smudger's system
      • Motherboard:
      • Asus P5K-E
      • CPU:
      • Intel Core 2 Duo 8500
      • Memory:
      • 2x2gb Corsair XMS2 8500
      • Storage:
      • 1x200Gb Maxtor DiamondMax 10, 1x1Tb Samsung Spinpoint F1
      • Graphics card(s):
      • XFX Radeon HD4890 1GB
      • PSU:
      • Corsair HX520
      • Case:
      • Akasa Zen
      • Operating System:
      • Windows 7 Home Premium
      • Monitor(s):
      • Samsung 2232BW
      • Internet:
      • Virgin 60Mbit

    Re: News - EA will build microtransactions into all its games

    I'm pretty close to uninstalling The Simpsons Tapped Out from my Nexus because of the 'pay for stuff to progress' mentality. Guess who the software house is? EA...

    £35 for 900 donuts. I can see that £70 was easy to spend...

  6. Received thanks from:

    OilSheikh (02-03-2013)

  7. #5
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jun 2004
    Location
    Kingdom of Fife (Scotland)
    Posts
    3,996
    Thanks
    283
    Thanked
    152 times in 137 posts
    • crossy's system
      • Motherboard:
      • ASUS Sabertooth 990FX Gen2
      • CPU:
      • AMD Phenom II 1090T / Noctua NH-D14
      • Memory:
      • 8GB Crucial Vengenance DDR3-1600
      • Storage:
      • 120GB Samsung EVO SSD, 500GB Samsung EVO SSD, 1TB WD Caviar Black, 2TB WD Caviar Green
      • Graphics card(s):
      • XFX 7970 Double D Black
      • PSU:
      • Corsair AX750 (modular)
      • Case:
      • Coolermaster HAF932 (with wheels)
      • Operating System:
      • Windows 7 Pro 64bit
      • Monitor(s):
      • LG Flattron W2361V
      • Internet:
      • VirginMedia 152Mb

    Re: News - EA will build microtransactions into all its games

    Quote Originally Posted by Smudger View Post
    I'm pretty close to uninstalling The Simpsons Tapped Out from my Nexus because of the 'pay for stuff to progress' mentality. Guess who the software house is? EA...
    £35 for 900 donuts. I can see that £70 was easy to spend...
    WOW - that's just about the full price for something like the Sims on PC (£37 and change on Game's website). No way would I be prepared to pay the same price as a game for some slab of DLC.

    Is this the Gillette theory of business - sell the razor (in this case the game) at cost, but sting the suckers for the consumables?

    I've been "devolved" ... does it show?

  8. Received thanks from:

    OilSheikh (02-03-2013)

  9. #6
    Registered+
    Join Date
    Nov 2012
    Posts
    17
    Thanks
    0
    Thanked
    0 times in 0 posts

    Re: News - EA will build microtransactions into all its games

    I already paid for the damn game, why should I keep on spending money on it after I bought it, this is just a cheap trick from EA to rip us off, this is just stupid.

  10. #7
    jim
    jim is online now
    HEXUS.clueless jim's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2008
    Location
    Location: Location:
    Posts
    10,727
    Thanks
    546
    Thanked
    1,446 times in 1,151 posts
    • jim's system
      • Motherboard:
      • Asus Maximus IV Gene-Z
      • CPU:
      • i5 2500K @ 4.5GHz
      • Memory:
      • 8GB Corsair Vengeance LP
      • Storage:
      • 256GB Crucial M4 + 500GB Seagate Momentus
      • Graphics card(s):
      • EVGA GTX 570
      • PSU:
      • Corsair AX650
      • Case:
      • Silverstone Fortress FT03
      • Operating System:
      • 7 Ultimate x64
      • Monitor(s):
      • 2 * Dell U2212HM
      • Internet:
      • 60Mb Cable

    Re: News - EA will build microtransactions into all its games

    The thing that frustrates me about EA's policy is that they have no long-term plan with DLC.

    I bought Mass Effect 2 and Dragon Age for very low prices on Steam, maybe £3-5 each or something, a very long time after they were released. I find out that there's some DLC, and log on to the shop and it says £20 for all of the DLC.

    So they expect me to pay 4 times the retail price of the game for the DLC? No, actually I'll pass.

    I'm sure some people will claim that I'm exactly the type of person driving this sort of activity, because I've bought the game for just £3 or whatever, and they need to recoup their costs. Fair enough. But the DLC needs to come down in price as well. If they'd wanted £1 per pack, I'd probably have done it. When it's released, fair enough, but 3, 4 years down the line, you cannot charge several times what the game costs for DLC. Well, you can, but I won't buy it.

    Look at Bethesda for instance. They release Fallout 3, and then a bunch of DLC. If you want, you can buy each one individually. But now it's available as a GotY edition, with everything bundled together. Yep, I'll buy that. As for Mass Effect's DLC (ME2 is one of my favourite games of all time), well EA - I would absolutely jump at that, I would love to play it. And so far, you've extracted precisely £0 from me. Good work.

    Desktop (3XS): 7 Ultimate, Silverstone FT03, Corsair AX650, Maximus IV Gene-Z, 2500K @ 4.5 GHz, 8GB RAM, GTX 570, 256GB M4, 500GB Seagate Momentus, 2*21.5" U2212HM, Tannoy Saturn S30
    Desktop 2 (Self-built): 7 Ultimate, CM RC-341, OCZ 400W XStream, GA-MA785GM-US2H, Phenom X4 9600 BE, 4GB RAM, 2TB HD204UI, 128GB Crucial M4, Acer P206HLbm
    Laptop (HP Pavilion DM1): 7 Ultimate, SU2300 1.2 GHz, 2GB RAM, Kingston 64GB SSDNow V
    Server (Self-built): Server 2013, Fractal Design R4, 580W be quiet! BN198, GA-F2A85X-D3H, AMD A8 5500, 16GB RAM, 120GB Samsung 840, 6*4TB Seagate

  11. #8
    Senior Member kalniel's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2005
    Posts
    24,547
    Thanks
    949
    Thanked
    2,221 times in 1,813 posts
    • kalniel's system
      • Motherboard:
      • Gigabyte X58A UD3R rev 2
      • CPU:
      • Intel i7 950
      • Memory:
      • 12gb DDR3 2000
      • Graphics card(s):
      • AMD HD7870
      • PSU:
      • XFX Pro 650W
      • Case:
      • Cooler Master HAF 912
      • Operating System:
      • Win 7 Pro x64
      • Monitor(s):
      • Dell U2311H
      • Internet:
      • O2 8mbps

    Re: News - EA will build microtransactions into all its games

    Quote Originally Posted by crossy View Post
    Getting back to the EA thing, presumably because they're "leveraging" this new payment method, the "sticker price" of games will fall. So presumably Battlefield 4 on the PC will be <£20 new?

    Actually no, I can't see that happening either.
    Well it might prevent them rising. Games are far cheaper in real terms than they used to be, while development costs are higher.

  12. #9
    Member
    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Posts
    183
    Thanks
    7
    Thanked
    9 times in 8 posts
    • Kanoe's system
      • Motherboard:
      • Asus Crosshair V Formula
      • CPU:
      • AMD 8120 @ 4.5GHz (280*16)
      • Memory:
      • Corsair Vengeance Arctic White 16GB (4 x 4)
      • Storage:
      • 240GB SanDisk Extreme System Disk, 480GB Crucial M500 Games Drive, 1TB Samsung F3 Backup Drive
      • Graphics card(s):
      • Sapphire R9 295X2 OC @ Stock
      • PSU:
      • Sapphire 950W
      • Case:
      • CM Stacker
      • Operating System:
      • Win 8.1
      • Monitor(s):
      • 3x Dell U2412M
      • Internet:
      • BT Infinity 2 @ 80/20

    Re: News - EA will build microtransactions into all its games

    All the game publishes seem to think we all want to play games that are Pay to Win. I hope they all go out of business if they continue to go in this direction. Kinda defeats putting any real effort into playing the games anymore if someone can splash the cash and get better stuff then you have been grinding for months for.

  13. Received thanks from:

    Saracen (03-03-2013)

  14. #10
    Oh Crumbs.... Biscuit's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    N. Yorkshire
    Posts
    8,958
    Thanks
    976
    Thanked
    672 times in 558 posts
    • Biscuit's system
      • Motherboard:
      • Gigabyte GA-Z77X-UD5H
      • CPU:
      • Intel i5 3570 (Corsair H100 with Akasa Piranha fans)
      • Memory:
      • 16GB Crucial DDR3 1866MHz
      • Storage:
      • 240GB Crucial M4, 480GB Crucial M500, 2TB Seagate SSHD
      • Graphics card(s):
      • 2 x MSI GTX660 Ti Power Edition
      • PSU:
      • Antec Truepower 750W
      • Case:
      • Corsair 650D
      • Operating System:
      • Windows 7 x64
      • Monitor(s):
      • Dell U2913WM & Philips E-line 234EL2SB
      • Internet:
      • BT Infinity 80/20

    Re: News - EA will build microtransactions into all its games

    If battlefield 4 uses this too heavily then it can count me out. I dont mind the premium thing they had going on with BF3, it actually worked out pretty well IMO, if they diverge from this and you end up having essential or extremely useful items as individually purchasable, no thanks.

  15. #11
    Registered+
    Join Date
    Dec 2012
    Location
    UK
    Posts
    81
    Thanks
    0
    Thanked
    4 times in 4 posts
    • Matsy's system
      • Motherboard:
      • msi p67a-gd53 b3
      • CPU:
      • i5 2500k
      • Memory:
      • 8gb
      • Storage:
      • Samsung 830
      • Graphics card(s):
      • Gigabyte 670 OC
      • PSU:
      • Corsair AX750
      • Case:
      • Coolmaster HAF 912 Plus
      • Operating System:
      • Windows 7

    Re: News - EA will build microtransactions into all its games

    This is just pathetic.
    If they need to do this sort of crap games should be B2P, buy to play with a cosmetic micro-translation system that is PURELY cosmetic, nothing else.

  16. #12
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    May 2009
    Posts
    252
    Thanks
    9
    Thanked
    24 times in 19 posts

    Re: News - EA will build microtransactions into all its games

    IMO...

    I personally hate feeling like I'm being double charged. If I buy a game, it should have the full functionality of the game without requiring additional payments (I'd note that I don't mind paying for specific add-on packs etc. that are actually new content). I can also see why being able to buy stuff to cut corners might appeal to some people BUT it should never be intrusive to the game, and should not confer any advantage that could not be obtained through 'hard work' within the game (especially not where multiplayer games are concerned).

    Case in point - a 'good' version of in game microtransactions for me is League of Legends. The game is free (though you can buy it ang get various bits n' bobs). Paying money can help you level faster or obtain additional champions faster BUT the only things that can be bought for cash that are not obtainable through gameplay are the skins - purely aesthetic.

    Case in point - a 'bad' version of double paying - any MMORPG type thing where they expect you to pay full whack to buy the game, but then can only actually play it online with a subscription. Make the game free (or at least cheap!) and then charge a monthly subscription, charge the game at full price but make the subscription itself free/VERY cheap OR, more realistically and as some of them do, bundle a 2–3 months subscription with the initial purchase of the game. When that expires, the plyer can decide if they want to extend the subscription at the full rate or not.

  17. #13
    Anthropomorphic Personification shaithis's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2004
    Location
    The Last Aerie
    Posts
    8,043
    Thanks
    417
    Thanked
    566 times in 482 posts
    • shaithis's system
      • Motherboard:
      • Asus P8Z77 WS
      • CPU:
      • i5 3570k @ 4.4GHz
      • Memory:
      • 8GB Corsair Dominator DDR3-1600 LP
      • Storage:
      • 3 RAID Arrays and 3 SATA Stand-alones
      • Graphics card(s):
      • GTX580 SLI
      • PSU:
      • Corsair HX850
      • Case:
      • Corsair 600T (White)
      • Operating System:
      • Windows 7 x64 / OSX Lion / Ubuntu 11 x64
      • Monitor(s):
      • 2 x Dell 3007
      • Internet:
      • M247 40/10 FTTC

    Re: News - EA will build microtransactions into all its games

    Oh well, more reason to pirate future EA titles.

    I hate hidden costs.
    Main PC: Asus P8Z77 WS / 3570k @ 4.4GHz / 8GB Vengeance Black / GTX 780 Ti / Areca 1680 / HX 850 / 600T / K60 / M60 / 2x Dell 3007 / 2 x 256GB Samsung 830 (RAID0) / 2 x 240GB Corsair Force 3 (RAID0) / Windows 8.1
    HTPC: AsRock Z77 Pro 4 / E3-1230v2 / 8GB XMS3 / GTX 780 / Tevii S480 / SST-LC20 / Antec TP-550 / PS50C6900 / 128GB Kingston V200 SSD + 3 x 1.5TB + 1 x 3TB / Windows 8.1 x64 Pro with WMC
    HTPC2: Asus AM1I-A / 5150 / 4GB DDR3 / Corsair Force 3 240GB / Silverstone SST-ML05B + ST30SF / Windows 8.1 x64 Pro with WMC
    Spare/Loaner: Gigabyte EX58-UD5 / i950 / 12GB RAM / GTS 450 / Corsair 300R / Silverpower 700W modular
    Server Setup: HP DL160 G6 / 2 x E5620 / 64GB RAM / 2 x 300GB SAS (RAID1) / 6 NICs / ESX 5.5
    2 x ESX 5.5 Nodes: Asus M5A78L-M/USB3 / AMD FX 6100 / 16GB XMS3 / 160GB SATA HDD / 5 NICs
    NAS 1: HP N40L / 10GB RAM / 2x 2 x 3TB + 80GB Intel SSD (Hybrid) || NAS 2: HP N40L / 10GB RAM / 2x 2 x 3TB + 80GB Intel SSD (Hybrid) || Network: TL-WR1043ND w/DD-WRT + Dell PowerConnect 5224
    Laptop: Thinkpad T61 / 4GB RAM / Centrino 2230 Wifi / 240GB Corsair Force 3

  18. Received thanks from:

    OilSheikh (02-03-2013)

  19. #14
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Feb 2012
    Posts
    210
    Thanks
    1
    Thanked
    14 times in 10 posts

    Re: News - EA will build microtransactions into all its games

    Quote Originally Posted by Smudger View Post
    I'm pretty close to uninstalling The Simpsons Tapped Out from my Nexus because of the 'pay for stuff to progress' mentality. Guess who the software house is? EA...

    £35 for 900 donuts. I can see that £70 was easy to spend...
    £35 is hardly a "micro" transaction is it. And that's what gets me about this entire model - the cost to purchase the add-ons is stupidly high, and appear to be targeted at children purchasing on their parent's systems.

    I refuse to play any "Free To Play with Microtransactions" game these days. They're pointless - you can't proceed if you actually get into the game without spending an inordinate amount of money that is higher than what the game should have cost in the first place. They're hardly "Free To Play" - the language used has to be clarified so consumers know what they are signing up for. At best they're a demo, or feature limited variant. However you pay more to unlock the features - but only until your in-game credits run out. The whole model is disgusting, and I blame Zynga and the other blood-sucking companies run by greedy suits.

  20. #15
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2013
    Location
    West Sussex
    Posts
    349
    Thanks
    18
    Thanked
    30 times in 24 posts
    • Chadders87's system
      • Motherboard:
      • Asus P8Z77-I Deluxe
      • CPU:
      • Intel i5 3570k
      • Memory:
      • Corsair Vengeance 8GB (2x4GB) 1600mhz
      • Storage:
      • Western Digital Caviar Black 1TB (Sata3)
      • Graphics card(s):
      • Sapphire AMD Radeon 7870 2GB
      • PSU:
      • BeQuiet 450w (140mm)
      • Case:
      • BitFenix Prodigy
      • Operating System:
      • Windows 7 Home Premium
      • Monitor(s):
      • Samsung 21.5'
      • Internet:
      • Sky Unlimited

    Re: News - EA will build microtransactions into all its games

    This seems to be the model for all mobile games out at the moment. Free to Play with good starting levels, equipment but then once your addicted they change the rules requireing hefty in-app purchases to get any further.

    To name and shame a few: Zenonia 3, Farm Simulator 2013 (Now costs £1 for base app), actually... just looking at the Play Stores top free games list and there all in-app funded. I assume the iStore or whatever it's called is the same.

    At least PC games provide a decent playing experience in Free 2 Plays without NEEDING to pay, although I tend to fully support the game with a few purchases if I enjoy the game enough, but it's my choice to make those purchases and they don't often give me an advantage over players who don't purchase bits.

    Unless EA meet the consumers in the middle with a small purchase price for the base game and premium in app purchases for in-game luxuries only, then they will end up alienating their core customers.

  21. #16
    Theoretical Element Spud1's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2003
    Location
    North West
    Posts
    6,271
    Thanks
    180
    Thanked
    169 times in 129 posts
    • Spud1's system
      • Motherboard:
      • Mac Pro
      • CPU:
      • 2x 2.8ghz Quad Core Xeons (octo-core)
      • Memory:
      • 4gb DDR2 FB-Dimm
      • Storage:
      • 1x1TB, 1x320gb, 2x500gb, 1x250gb, 120GB SSD
      • Graphics card(s):
      • Nvidia Geforce 560Ti
      • PSU:
      • Mac pro PSU
      • Case:
      • Mac Pro Case
      • Operating System:
      • Windows 8
      • Monitor(s):
      • 1x22" LG 3D TFT 1x 19" ViewSonic
      • Internet:
      • 80mb BT Infinity

    Re: News - EA will build microtransactions into all its games

    Sorry - this post turned into a bit of a rant - but i'm going to post this anyway as I suspect the vast majority of people will agree with me. It's not meant to be inflammatory

    tl;dr? Free to play is a horrible model and micro transactions add no value to our games



    Sometimes I really wonder if EA have partnered with the UK/US governments in an effort to get kids to stop playing video games and to go out into the world at large - seriously is their company mission statement "To remove all the fun and pleasure from gaming"?

    "Free to Play" (in quotes as its never free to play) is the single worst thing to happen to gaming, ever. Worse than price rises, piracy, in-game adverts, console ports, Deux Ex 2..all combined.

    Why? Because it makes gaming so much more expensive and so much less attractive at the same time...whilst also legitimising cheating!! We all know that with a traditional game, you buy the game and pay a set fee - typically £30-£40, and that's your lot. You don't *need* to spend any more money to get the same experience, and you can be confident that your online experience will be as fair as possible, allowing for the usual hackers/cheaters.

    With "FTP", you have two problems.

    1) You don't know how much your game will cost. You start out with part of the game for free, and then are forced to pay again, and again, and again for things that ordinarily would be included as standard game. This is a huge issue but one that can be easily managed with the right attitude from the publishers. DLC is a good example here - it can be done right (e.g. with Mass Effect, where it's just like a traditional expansion pack) and it can be done very wrong (like recent COD games where you get a tiny number of maps included with the game [especially zombies] and must buy the DLC to get any more).

    2) Legitimised cheating - this is my biggest problem with FTP. Unless it's done perfectly, you turn online gaming into a "who has the most money to waste" competition. Team Fortress 2 is a very good example of this, where you can purchase new weapons, keys to unlock crates etc etc etc..all things that make you into a stronger player who's harder to kill - it's completely unfair on the rest of the gamers out there. I stopped playing TF2 the moment it went FTP and refuse to go back - and whats worse I can't even get a refund considering that I paid for a game that turned into something else. MMORPGs have a similar problem if players can "buy" a top level armour set or weapon. I don't play Guild Wars/STO or any other MMORPGs that suffer from this disease but there are many that do.

    Of course you can integrate micro transactions in a good way too - Diablo III did a very good job with its real money auction house in my opinion, purely as the act of you spending £1000 on weapons/armour doesn't have a negative impact on anyone elses play experience. Many other games also offer nice cosmetic addons as micropayments (World of Warcraft Non combat pets or mounts for example) which again, don't directly impact other players. It's rare to see something done so well though.


    EA's justification that "gamers clearly love FTP/micro transactions" is complete rubbish and totally baseless - of course they will be seeing immense profits/sales from this channel - gamers are not given the choice!

    If you gave gamers two choices:

    1) Pay £40 for a game with all content included
    2) Pay nothing for the base game but pay £80 for all the content over a year

    I would wager that the vast majority of players will plump for option 1.

    EA have long been the target of abuse from the gaming community and unfortunately for them, it's consistently for the right reasons. Gone are the days of EA being one of the premier gaming companies - in recent years they have spent their money buying up a whole bunch of good (and struggling) studios and completely destroying their franchises. DICE, Westwood (oh how I miss their games..), Bullfrog (we *need* DK III ), Maxis, Pandemic...the list goes on.

    *grumble* maybe I am just getting old now and I am out of touch with reality!

Page 1 of 5 1234 ... LastLast

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •