QOTW: Are we ready for cash-less high streets?

[gupsterg]

The variance is going, and if you're paying 15% for credit cards they're getting bent over (unless they sell furniture or something). TBh even at 15p for debit cards they're getting a crap deal. Barclaycard will do it for less just on their published pricing, never mind if they get a decent broker.

We have a thing called paypoint, which people want for bills , etc. You need to offer the same service as other so you don't miss out on trade. Other merchant services don't offer these facilities and having two sets of monthly fees works out not cost effective.

Yes credit cards are 2.0% (IIRC), but less transactions on that payment method, even on £5 transaction we lose 10p out of £1 profit.

Once companies have you in a contract they also have the right to change these fees, it's in the small print of all of them and usually you can't get out. My family been doing this business now for over 25yrs and all promise x and deliver something else when in a contract.

We've had paypoint change the rate of commission they pay us on services change about 4 times in the past 1.5yrs of a 5yr contract .

Terminals and such are expensive, but no more so than tills, its a cost of doing business. I imagine I'm not alone in not shopping places where I know they won't take cards, so unless I'm desperate for something they wouldn't make 85p, they'd make nothing.

I agree it is a cost of doing business, I just wanted to share what it does cost.

I feel a cashless society would mean us bearing the costs.

I just don't see why carrying £5-£50 is so inconvenient / insecure for people, small retailers are losing 10-15% of their profit plus other fees they pay and this calc is based on £5 spend with £1 GP.

[Saracen]

You assume of course that cash is free to businesses to process? Our standard tariff for processing cash over a counter is int the £0.60/£100 region. Maybe £0.20 if you use a van, but then G4 are charging you as well.

Assuming it goes through the books contactless will be as cheap or cheaper than cash for most businesses, and following the change in regulation on interchange lots of chip & pin transactions will be as well. Debit card transactions aren't a % by the way, its usually somewhere between 10-50p/transaction depending on the acquirer and the type of goods you're buying.

I think most people haven't read the article properly. The proposed legislation is to remove the requirement for certain businesses to have to accept cash, not to require them not to.

Banks are still getting a percentage of each non-cash (I.e. used to be cash) transaction, which was my point, not that they're getting a percentage transaction fee.

And agreed about the "requirement" issue, but it's the thin end of the wedge. We all know where it's intended to end up.

As for charges for handling cash, I'm aware of that. First, I run a business. Also, I'm fully aware of why supernarkets always seem to ask card-paying customers "Want any cash back?"

But my points aren't about businesses with large cash handling issues, but about a cashless society where none of us can make small payments without having to use digital methods, being it card or e-payment.

[directhex]

So I've got to buy a smartphone, which I don't want, in order to pay for window cleaning?

No. Your window cleaner can use a smartphone and a Square dongle (or similar like PayPal Here) as an EFTPOS terminal.

[Myss_tree]

Where would it stop?
The local boot fair and private items in local papers would be a thing of the past if the seller had to accept card payment.
I still maintain the underlying reasons are that state bodies want to know what you are doing, who with and why, 24/7. They want to wring out of you every last penny to pay for an increasingly bloated governmental system.

[peterb]

I prefer cash, only use card for online / large purchases.

I loathe the way merchant services are so costly to my family's business , so the thought of cashless society makes me .

People come in with a card expecting them to take it for very small purchases (<£5) or on items which they make less than 5% profit.

For example they generally make GP of 20% that would mean out of each £5 they take they make £1 (before tax/running costs). The bank then take 15p out of that when a buyer pays with card, they lose 15% profit out of that transaction! and that's not taking into account the monthly charges they have to pay for the terminal and business account!

News stories of when banks state card transactions account for such a low percentage of a purchase amount should come and speak to small retailers.

Consumers think merchants services are free! they are not!

They also pay higher rates for the so called "Premium Credit / Debit cards" , the ones where the customers get points / % rebates.

Rant over, sorry .

I pay no more for a casback credit card than I do for a standard one, but I do get money back, so I save money over the year.

I work as a volunteer in a community shop. We are actively looking at taking card transactions for small purchases for customer convenience and to reduce cash handling. The transaction fees for a debit card transaction of £5 is less than 3p, and for a credit card less than 15p. Yes, it adds to the overhead, which we will absorb, but greater convenience and security all round, as the cash ends up straight in the bank, with an audit trail. Less risk of theft or mis-accounting.

Perhaps my reply is not in the context of your post.

We dispose of it at wholesalers, as banks charge fees on cash deposits into bank account. Another method that can be used is deposit cash in your personal account then do electronic transfer to your business account.



I agree and disagree.

Our size of business means we are VAT registered, we have to provide till rolls as proof of sales with accounts plus from purchases invoice of goods we sell anyone can gauge what we should be making / declaring.

These goods we buy to sell are from VAT registered wholesalers, another paper trail.

Then there is the means test if your investigated ie what you own and lifestyle.

If you are VAT registered your accounting system will be more robust and you will be issuing and receiving VAT invoices, but if you are doing that, the thought of receiving and carrying large wedges of cash is a potential security nightmare. I get nervous if I have more than £20 in my wallet.

But if that suits your workflow....

But I'm sure the same arguments were applied 40 or 50 years ago when companies moved away from paying employees in cash and moved to direct bank transfer. Would you really want to go back to that? (Perhaps only if you are a small trader). Reducing the transfer and storage of cash is a reduction in the opportunity for violent crime (although digital banking carries a new set of security risks)

Cashless spending is just the logical extension of the general trend away from cash.

[tomthum]

Yes it wont be long till they bring in the rsd-chip inserted in our hands or wherever
THE MARK OF THE BEAST WILL BE HERE SOON the embedded chip
and only true Christians will refuse this.
the devils crowed will all accept it
read the bible its all in there, the one world currency, one world Government, one world church,
the globalist are winning, big corporations big business, rich get richer, poor get poorer

[aidanjt]

Yes it wont be long till they bring in the rsd-chip inserted in our hands or wherever
THE MARK OF THE BEAST WILL BE HERE SOON the embedded chip
and only true Christians will refuse this.
the devils crowed will all accept it
read the bible its all in there, the one world currency, one world Government, one world church,
the globalist are winning, big corporations big business, rich get richer, poor get poorer

Are you high?

[gupsterg]

I pay no more for a casback credit card than I do for a standard one, but I do get money back, so I save money over the year.

Yes you do but our merchant services provider may class that card as "Premium card" and we have to pay higher processing fee. IIRC business cards are the highest fees, 2nd is Premium cards, 3rd is std cards and lowest is contact-less.

The transaction fees for a debit card transaction of £5 is less than 3p, and for a credit card less than 15p.

That is a magical rate IMO, even on our last discussion with a company (can't recall name but can fish out emails) they were only bettering Paypoint by a 1p or 2 on DC and perhaps 0.5% on CC but we lost bill payment / top ups and other services for customer / competing with other businesses that offer it. It would help us and perhaps others I know if you could share by PM who you use?

Prior to Paypoint we were with a company called PostTS (2004 was sign up), that had no monthly fee and low rates. They got taken over by Payzone, initially they kept the terms of the PostTS agreement. We left them in 2013, every year they kept changing things on commission payments for top-up / bill payments and merchant services. Every year was a rolling contract and you got notification of changes upon renewal but you had to have given notice 3months earlier IIRC. We only stayed with them for so long as nothing else seemed any better on rates and didn't wanna lose money on changing terminals and downtime of acquirer change.

If you are VAT registered your accounting system will be more robust and you will be issuing and receiving VAT invoices, but if you are doing that, the thought of receiving and carrying large wedges of cash is a potential security nightmare. I get nervous if I have more than £20 in my wallet.

But if that suits your workflow....

We don't issue invoices as such but perhaps a till receipt, it's a convenience store. I can see how large wedges of cash can seem like security nightmare but we go wholesaling 3 times a week and it's disposed of. We never really go over the sum which is insured for holding on premises. Cash in transit and goods are also covered, the insurance extra for all this is only a very small percentage of overall cost of policy a year or negligible IIRC as they are commercial policies.

But I'm sure the same arguments were applied 40 or 50 years ago when companies moved away from paying employees in cash and moved to direct bank transfer. Would you really want to go back to that? (Perhaps only if you are a small trader).

No I wouldn't. BT / DD don't cost us anything.

Reducing the transfer and storage of cash is a reduction in the opportunity for violent crime (although digital banking carries a new set of security risks)

I can agree this statement.

[peterb]

Unless you till rolls/receipts are carefully designed, they may not be acceptable for VAT purposes. They must have VAT number, tax point date, amount and rate of VAT. I'm sure you would have that covered if you are VAT registered though.

I've PMd you.

[rob4001]

Cashless society means ultimate control of wealth by government and corporate entities that you'll be unable to prevent from raiding your bank account as they see fit. It not really about how you pay the window cleaner for services etc..Its about control.

http://www.usatoday.com/story/money/...vings/2595837/

[Saracen]

....

I work as a volunteer in a community shop. We are actively looking at taking card transactions for small purchases for customer convenience and to reduce cash handling.
....

What about the convenience of customers that want to pay cash?

Don't get me wrong. Taking small value card payments, or contactless e-payments, for customers that want it is fine. I don't have a problem with that. I do have a problem with shops going cashless. Any shop doing that will lose any chance of business from me unless every possible source of whatever I'm buying has done likewise.

[Saracen]

Cashless society means ultimate control of wealth by government and corporate entities that you'll be unable to prevent from raiding your bank account as they see fit. It not really about how you pay the window cleaner for services etc..Its about control.

http://www.usatoday.com/story/money/...vings/2595837/

Entirely agree. The window cleaner example is just that. My two principle reasons for prefering cash are privacy and control.

[azrael-]

I live in Denmark, so I would be directly affected by this. For several reasons I sincerely hope this doesn't come to pass, however.

First of all, many elderly people aren't used to anything but cash and really shouldn't be forced to. I know for a fact that my mum neither can nor wants to have anything to do with a credit card.

Secondly, I might be wrong here, but in my opinion if you're paying by card you don't have as strong a connection to the money you're actually parting with. I'd go as far as to say that paying by card makes you more prone to using money you might not actually have and too many people are already spending way above their means. There're TV shows here featuring people needing debt restructuring. With a cashless society they probably won't run out of partakers for a while.

Last, but not least. A major reason listed by our government for cashless transactions is supposed to be lowered costs for businesses and the creation of new jobs. I can't really see that happening and neither can the political opposition. For in the end what this boils down to is propaganda for the imminent election here in Denmark. Sometime before 2015 is out we have to elect a new government, which means that right now there's all sorts of pre-election promises flying around.

Oh, and one more thing (tm), even though most of our money is already just bits in memory somewhere, right now I can still go down to my bank and get my money in physical form. Granted, this physical form isn't worth the value it denominates and is far far away from the gold standard, but it still beats purely electronic cash. Virtual money is virtual money. Here for the moment, gone the next.

[peterb]

What about the convenience of customers that want to pay cash?

Don't get me wrong. Taking small value card payments, or contactless e-payments, for customers that want it is fine. I don't have a problem with that. I do have a problem with shops going cashless. Any shop doing that will lose any chance of business from me unless every possible source of whatever I'm buying has done likewise.

We won't stop taking cash, it's an additional service that we have been asked to provide. Most of our transactions are under £10.

[Saracen]

We won't stop taking cash, it's an additional service that we have been asked to provide. Most of our transactions are under £10.

Indeed, but the thread subject was about a cashless high street.

[peterb]

Cashless society means ultimate control of wealth by government and corporate entities that you'll be unable to prevent from raiding your bank account as they see fit. It not really about how you pay the window cleaner for services etc..Its about control.

http://www.usatoday.com/story/money/...vings/2595837/

But unless you are completely cash driven and don't have a bank account at all, you cannot avoid that. It would be next to impossible to do online shopping (for example) without a bank account with a debit card.

Which doesn't matter if you don't shop online, but are you paid in cash? How do you save up for a large purchase, obtain credit for very large purchases?

Even paying utility bills becomes a faff if you are paying cash.