Windows 10 installs hit 75 million after just four weeks

[Saracen]

I'm just really curious about how many share the same concerns as yourself about Windows 10 (and it's a valid concern) but also use an Android mobile phone or tablet. Since the Android market share is pretty significant I'm going to go out on a limb and say of the people that say they don't like being spied on, 40% of them probably own an Android device of some type of another.

If you're one of them then all I'd say is that Microsoft and Windows 10 is the least of your worries. Yes they might be forcing updates on you but it's a stark contrast to the absolute farce that Android updates. I would rather my usage data wasn't used at all but if I've got to choose then there is no question as to whom I would side with.

If you really want to talk about the thin end of the wedge, how do you feel about your car running Android? Personally, it makes my blood run cold.

Well, two issues there.

I'm currently using an Android tablet. But updates aren't forced. As for Android and privacy, there is NO personal data on this tablet. Location services are turned off, it has no contacts, calendar events, personal files, etc, on it, and never has. The ONLY email adress this device has ever been given is the one used to initialise it, that being a temp address I've never even checked since. It's not used for email, it's certainly never seen a credit card, nor have I ever used it nor online shopping, not least because I very rarely buy online.

It's basically used for a bit of web-browsing, and even that isn't done over my home broadband.

[rainman]

Well seeing as Microsoft have been (disputably) forcing the Windows 10 upgrade on people, I would say some people haven't had a choice, but that's a whole other kettle of fish.

/sigh

No one is being forced to do anything. You choose to upgrade, or not. You're the one with the mouse which can be placed over "I Accept" should you wish to click on it and partake. No one is twisting your arm, or making you stare down the barrel of a gun.

If everyone was being forced then there would be more than 75 million installs and Windows 10 market share would be significantly more.

[Saracen]

....

If you really want to talk about the thin end of the wedge, how do you feel about your car running Android? Personally, it makes my blood run cold.

Personally, the notion of my car running either Android or Windows makes my blood run cold. The ONLY way I'd even consider either is if I had to have a car, and no others that didn't were available. I don't want a heavily computerised car at all, and CERTAINLY don't want one with built-in internet connection. Hell, I don't even want built-in SatNav.

[Saracen]

/sigh

No one is being forced to do anything. You choose to upgrade, or not. You're the one with the mouse which can be placed over "I Accept" should you wish to click on it and partake. No one is twisting your arm, or making you stare down the barrel of a gun.

If everyone was being forced then there would be more than 75 million installs and Windows 10 market share would be significantly more.

True, but what was being got at was that by using the upgrade process to install the nag screen, and especially with "free" update, a LOT of less computer-literate users will just click "Accept" with understanding the implications. So yeah, they are consenting, but by using those psychological pressures, is being led by the nose to accept truly informed consent? And if consent isn't informed consent, is it truly consent?

No, people aren't being signed up at gunpoint. Perhaps a better analogy would be being sold a three-legged horse dressed up as a racehorse, by a snake-oil salesman.

[rainman]

Well, two issues there.

I'm currently using an Android tablet. But updates aren't forced. As for Android and privacy, there is NO personal data on this tablet. Location services are turned off, it has no contacts, calendar events, personal files, etc, on it, and never has. The ONLY email adress this device has ever been given is the one used to initialise it, that being a temp address I've never even checked since. It's not used for email, it's certainly never seen a credit card, nor have I ever used it nor online shopping, not least because I very rarely buy online.

It's basically used for a bit of web-browsing, and even that isn't done over my home broadband.

Agreed, and that works to an extent but your browsing activity can still be enumerated by the chocolate factory, and your mere use of their software is in itself an acceptance of their terms. Your own use (which would be no different from my own) wouldn't reflect typical use.

[Saracen]

Agreed, and that works to an extent but your browsing activity can still be enumerated by the chocolate factory, and your mere use of their software is in itself an acceptance of their terms. Your own use (which would be no different from my own) wouldn't reflect typical use.

It can, indeed.

Any use of the internet is, to some extent, a trade-off, convenience for privacy. It's a sort-of Faustian deal, for sure. The only way to ensure absolute privacy, at least in terms of the internet, is to not use it. And yes, I both have and indeed am actively considering that course of action. I'm kind-of hoping various national of supranational regulators step in an castrate these privacy snoopers, but I'm sure not hokding my breath .... and it may already be too late.

And agreed, my/our use isn't typical. In my case, it can't even be traced to me.

[rainman]

True, but what was being got at was that by using the upgrade process to install the nag screen, and especially with "free" update, a LOT of less computer-literate users will just click "Accept" with understanding the implications. So yeah, they are consenting, but by using those psychological pressures, is being led by the nose to accept truly informed consent? And if consent isn't informed consent, is it truly consent?

No, people aren't being signed up at gunpoint. Perhaps a better analogy would be being sold a three-legged horse dressed up as a racehorse, by a snake-oil salesman.

I understand where you're coming from but I have to be honest and say that I have no sympathy for someone that takes everything at face value only to find that they've had their pants pulled down for the want of reading through a contract - but, I have to admit, I've done it myself and just clicked the 'Accept' button without reading anything I was accepting. You could make the comparison that if someone handed you a loan agreement, face to face, and you signed it without evening looking at it then a court of law would give you precious little sympathy either. It's not that different, perhaps with the exception that acceptance can be done without even really qualifying exactly who you are.

The South Park - Human Centipad episode springs to mind.

[aidanjt]

As for Android and privacy, there is NO personal data on this tablet. Location services are turned off, it has no contacts, calendar events, personal files, etc, on it, and never has.

More importantly, it's entirely possible to install CyangenMod, and other 3rd party firmware distributions of android, and leave out the gapps collection of packages, which includes play store and all the other Google stuff that normally comes preinstalled on phones, and instead use an open source repository of binaries like F-droid, and store data solely on the device, or your own personal server, and not have it being shot up onto 'teh cloud'/Google.

[Saracen]

More importantly, it's entirely possible to install CyangenMod, and other 3rd party firmware distributions of android, and leave out the gapps collection of packages, which includes play store and all the other Google stuff that normally comes preinstalled on phones, and instead use an open source repository of binaries like F-droid, and store data solely on the device, or your own personal server, and not have it being shot up onto 'teh cloud'/Google.

Indeed.

Though, at the risk of bricking it, and very likely, sacrificing warranty, etc. And it's probably a rather niche practice for the tech-cognoscenti, because I'd bet if you suggested that to the average non-techy user, they'd respond by slapping their best confused expression on their face, and saying something insightful like "Huhn?"

[Saracen]

I understand where you're coming from but I have to be honest and say that I have no sympathy for someone that takes everything at face value only to find that they've had their pants pulled down for the want of reading through a contract - but, I have to admit, I've done it myself and just clicked the 'Accept' button without reading anything I was accepting. You could make the comparison that if someone handed you a loan agreement, face to face, and you signed it without evening looking at it then a court of law would give you precious little sympathy either. It's not that different, perhaps with the exception that acceptance can be done without even really qualifying exactly who you are.

The South Park - Human Centipad episode springs to mind.

More than a grain of truth in that, too.

I'm one of those sad types that does read such conditions. I know, I need to get a life.

My counter to that, though, is that I consider it no coincidence that some of these agreements have aspirations to be War and Peace. I mean, with Windows, you have to read .... the EULA, the services agreement, and the privacy policy. So .... clear your morning schedule.

Then, it's one thing reading it, and entirely another understanding what it says.

See, I'm a bit of a cynic. And I can hear the enthusiastic agreement from HEXUS regulars from here. I'd say you have to be in a specific frame of mind when reading them, which is to not concentrate on what it APPEARS to say, but what MS lawyers may be able to convince a court it actually says.

A classic is example is where they say things like ..

"XYZ Ltd may use user data for this, that, the other and other necessary purposes, for example, account administration, billing, and enhancing the user experience."

They tart it up a bit of course, but the critical thing is what other purposes might be 'necessary', and as defined by who? The temptation is to look at the list of uses as what they're doing with your data, and miss that it said for example.

A truly informed consent might better involve opting IN to intrusive measures, with all, such steps being in ONE place, and each accompanied by a CLEAR explanation of what you're agreeing to. But they know that if they do that, few will opt-in. Which gives the lie to the current method being in any real sense an informed consent.

Personally, given a choice between a free version of Windows 10 that grabs my data, and a (say, £200) paid-for version that doesn't, I'd go for the paid version .... all other issues being solved, of course.

For me, one red line is that auto-update issue and being forced to accept whatever decisions MS make for MY computer. Given that, upgrading to 10 is a non-starter.

And that's before even considering privacy.

[aidanjt]

And it's probably a rather niche practice for the tech-cognoscenti, because I'd bet if you suggested that to the average non-techy user

Yeah that's the huge downside. Sadly the average user gets screwed because all the development effort is in maximising centralisation and data-mining potential.

[Corky34]

I understand where you're coming from but I have to be honest and say that I have no sympathy for someone that takes everything at face value only to find that they've had their pants pulled down for the want of reading through a contract - but, I have to admit, I've done it myself and just clicked the 'Accept' button without reading anything I was accepting. You could make the comparison that if someone handed you a loan agreement, face to face, and you signed it without evening looking at it then a court of law would give you precious little sympathy either. It's not that different, perhaps with the exception that acceptance can be done without even really qualifying exactly who you are.

If you wanted an example of how people just accept what their told by higher authorities one that springs to mind is how banks sold PPI to people, while it's only a lose comparison it goes to show how people tend to sign up for things they either don't want or don't need if they're told to do so, a more computer based example is how many people get infected when they click on a link in an e-mail telling them they've won a lottery they never entered, or on link that says their PC is infected.

[DanceswithUnix]

Personally, the notion of my car running either Android or Windows makes my blood run cold. The ONLY way I'd even consider either is if I had to have a car, and no others that didn't were available. I don't want a heavily computerised car at all, and CERTAINLY don't want one with built-in internet connection. Hell, I don't even want built-in SatNav.

On the flip side, I wouldn't want to go back to purely mechanical cars of my youth, balancing banks of unreliable carburettors to get the engine running smoothly and relying on physical security against theft. I love a decent electronic brakeforce distribution system rather than some iffy brake balance valve under the car and with a motorway full of average speed cameras cruise control can be very nice. Diagnosing faults via OBDII interface is lovely, and being told by the car that a sidelight bulb has failed is better and safer than driving around ignorantly unlit. I rather like climate control as well.

Remote access to these functions is where I draw the line.

[crossy]

I'm just really curious about how many share the same concerns as yourself about Windows 10 (and it's a valid concern) but also use an Android mobile phone or tablet. Since the Android market share is pretty significant I'm going to go out on a limb and say of the people that say they don't like being spied on, 40% of them probably own an Android device of some type of another. If you're one of them then all I'd say is that Microsoft and Windows 10 is the least of your worries. Yes they might be forcing updates on you but it's a stark contrast to the absolute farce that Android updates. I would rather my usage data wasn't used at all but if I've got to choose then there is no question as to whom I would side with.

Sigh. First off it's not Android that's the privacy problem - it's the Google apps. Spend 10 minutes with DDG searches and you'll see that 3rd party ROM's are pretty reasonable about privacy. Heck, Cyanogen put that aspect of "their" OS front and centre.

Secondly, Google are well known for farming private data - they've been very honest about it from the start that they see their services as a way to make revenue by ad targeting. I (personally) have no issue with that. Microsoft on the hand you don't expect to do this, AND they've been very coy about exactly what information they've been gathering AND what use they're going to make of it. Then there's the whole "we own your machine, so we'll do what we feel like to it" nonsense.

Thirdly, I don't see Google ramming updates down your throat - even on a Nexus (I believe) you're ASKED if you want to do an OS upgrade and usually you're not suddenly going to acquire a whole lot of freeloader apps (unless the phone manufacturer sees fit to do so)

Fourthly, in the interests of balance don't forget that Apple also grabs your data. (Before the iFans start getting all high and mighty!). It's the "new conformity" (thanks John Brunner)

If you really want to talk about the thin end of the wedge, how do you feel about your car running Android? Personally, it makes my blood run cold.

Car running Android? Same response as one running iOS - HELL NO!

Maybe I'm channelling my inner Saracen, but a car is a means to get me (and luggage) from point A to point B with the minimum of fuss. I don't even like the idea of in-car satnav - preferring to use a smartphone app when, and IF, I need that assistance. I see no use for the supposed "benefits" of Android Auto etc. I'm quite happy to limit automation to pairing of my phone to the car radio for the purposes of playing music and podcasts by using the steering wheel controls.

By the way, I've read that in-car satnavs also store your trips and destinations in a way that's readable by someone when the car goes in for service. Which is one reason why the idea of "call home" telemetry for the car is also a phenomenally bad idea.

I already depend on Android for navigation and bluetooth streamed music, so I think it is about half way through the wedge and the thin edge is long gone.
Rather that than Windows though. "The brake pedal has been pressed, please reboot for this to take effect." *Shudder*.

For some reason that made me smile... (I know, I'm weird).

Is it wrong that I'm actually kind of liking windows 10?

No, my missus hasn't complained about it, and it was actually pretty darned usable on the netbook I tried it on. Put it this way, if I could find a cheap VM-compatible version of 8.1 (Pro?) then I'd create a VM for it, install it and then blag my free W10 upgrade. W10 passed my how-long-before-I-feel-like-throwing-the-PC test when W8 failed ... miserably.

[ZaO]

Saracen - look into an operating system called "Tails" if you don't already know about it. Might be an alternative to not using the net at all anymore.

And here's another thought, guys. Not using the net at all doesn't guarantee your privacy and security. Companies will still gather data on you and it share it. It'll still be vunerable to being stolen too. Then there's your careless friends that will post pictures of you and them doing stuff and saying where you were and at what time etc, on sites like facebook. You can definitely cut a lot of it out, but you can't stop it completely.

[Saracen]

....

And here's another thought, guys. Not using the net at all doesn't guarantee your privacy and security. Companies will still gather data on you and it share it. It'll still be vunerable to being stolen too. Then there's your careless friends that will post pictures of you and them doing stuff and saying where you were and at what time etc, on sites like facebook. You can definitely cut a lot of it out, but you can't stop it completely.

I would say that absolute privacy is impossible, short of changing your name and living a hermit life halfway up a Himalaya.

It's not so much friends catching photos that bothers me, mainly because few if any if my friends are shallow enough to be posting taking photos on phones, let alone belonging to Facebook and posting them. Maybe it's a generational thing. More worrying is if Google (apps), MS etc are helping themselvrs to all our personal data, then I'm subject to whatever friends, family, business contacts etc put about me, in their phones. When MS, Google, etc claim to have "consent" they bleeping well DO NOT HAVE MINE.

But for someone privacy conscious, all I can realistically do is to do everything realistically in my control. And not worry about the rest. Or I'm going to punch someone.

So, I do do what I can. I am conscious of the above when I give out the any info. I am very selective about who I give my phone number to, for instance. Shops often ask for it, but none get it. I very rarely buy online, and this is partly why. I shop using cash, and don't use online banking. I'm opted out of the part of the electoral roll that you can opt out of (an important junkmail-reducing step, by the way), have a call-blocking service on my phone line, don't have a smartphone, put NO personal information on devices like this tablet, and so on.

Paranoid? No. But certainly aware of the way the world, and data-mining/warehousing, work.

So, everything we do is a trade-off, as I said earlier. Going off-net is no universal panacea, and won't magically grant absolute privacy. What it will do is 100% eliminate my internet use as a source of data on me .... beyond a flag saying 'no internet'.

EDIT .... Oh, and I absolutely NEVER use store 'reward' cards. That's the absolute epitome of trade-off. I could save money using these, or cashback sites, etc., but will not, because the money involved is not, to me, worth it for the privacy loss.