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Thread: Barclays rolls out contactless cash machines

  1. #17
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    Re: Barclays rolls out contactless cash machines

    Quote Originally Posted by Kushan View Post
    Except it doesn't work like this at all. There's some confusion around this because the first "contactless" cards in the USA were just RFID tags embedded into a dumb plastic card (and yeah, those can be cloned very trivially). We use chip (US is currently migrating to chip) and have done for years, so our contactless is much more advanced. There's a special kind of handshake and cryptographic checks that are unique to every transaction, so you can't "clone" a card at all. The worst you can do is steal a single transaction, but there's a problem with that....which I'll lead onto here....
    I'm in the UK, so we are/were already using pin and chip cards, and it was a barclays card with chip and pin that I scanned with my nexus 7... as said a simple nfc app read 'important' details from my card. IIRC there is a £30 allowance for payments without using my pin and it 'should' ask for a pin after several in a row but if you do just one transaction per person walking down the street, say in London, that soon adds up. All it takes is the right tool/software, like in the olden days with card skimmers. We already have apps like paypal which can access pin and chip readers on your phone, we have payment from phones so using that as a basis for the coding of the software isn't outside the realms of possibility.
    Last edited by LSG501; 22-11-2016 at 06:10 PM.

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    Re: Barclays rolls out contactless cash machines

    Those are more privacy rather than important no?

    If so, a wallet with more than one card in will no doubt be very difficult to scan passively whilst you are walking past a sensor or even through a gate.
    throw new ArgumentException (String, String, Exception)

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    Re: Barclays rolls out contactless cash machines

    nice and pointless, you will spent 30 minutes getting to a barclays branch, they don't have any ATM's anywhere in cities except in branches

    go into a supermarket local, and pay yourself on a machine, most will let you buy a mars bar and then you can take out your money
    Last edited by me-yeah; 22-11-2016 at 06:25 PM.

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    Re: Barclays rolls out contactless cash machines

    Quote Originally Posted by Ttaskmaster View Post
    Oh, great... so now everyone HAS to have RFID blocking crap in their wallets, manufacturers get to charge a premium for what we're forced to have, because banks won't issue non-contactless cards any more?
    Wooo, colour me happy......
    It's not RFID, but yeah you don't really get a choice with the contact only cards. Just depends on your bank.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ttaskmaster View Post
    Great. Wonderful.
    So they can empty my meagre account in one transaction, incur me overdraft charges and potentially leave me stranded 520 miles from home.... but they can only do it a few times before having to try and guess my PIN?
    Great.....

    You're not selling me on this so far!!
    Well, they can already do that even if your card isn't contactless. Having your (contact only) card means they can go on an online shopping spree (Even if you've get that little popup that asks you to verify your transaction, not all online stores support it), or use the good ol' magstripe on the back of it to go on a shopping spree elsewhere. The fact that your card is contactless doesn't make it any less secure, the relatively small amounts of a contact transaction means fraud isn't really worth the effort. Put it this way, contactless cards aren't anything new (my debit card has been contactless for a couple of years), yet fraud on them isn't particularly high.

    Quote Originally Posted by LSG501 View Post
    I'm in the UK, so we are/were already using pin and chip cards, and it was a barclays card with chip and pin that I scanned with my nexus 7... as said a simple nfc app read 'important' details from my card.
    Let me be clear, I never once stated that your phone couldn't communicate with the card but your phone didn't read the card, either. The NFC reader on your phone uses the same technology as the readers cards use, that's how Android/Apple Pay works and that's why it works. So it shouldn't be a huge surprise that you can use your phone to talk to the card. However, you cannot clone the card in any way, this is what I mean when I say your phone didn't read the card - it spoke to it and the card gave up some trivial information (Basically the stuff printed on the front of your card - PAN, expiry, etc., the same stuff that's present in the magstripe) but there's no way to pull anything meaningful from the card, all of the cryptographic keys it uses during transactions are never ever shown.

    Quote Originally Posted by LSG501 View Post
    IIRC there is a £30 allowance for payments without using my pin and it 'should' ask for a pin after several in a row but if you do just one transaction per person walking down the street, say in London, that soon adds up. All it takes is the right tool/software, like in the olden days with card skimmers. We already have apps like paypal which can access pin and chip readers on your phone, we have payment from phones so using that as a basis for the coding of the software isn't outside the realms of possibility.
    Yeah you could do this, but there's more to it than you're making out. It's a bit like me saying I can ping hsbc.co.uk from my PC, so it can't be secure.

    We need a bit of a thought experiment, so you can see how what you're proposing just isn't feasible:

    When you pop your card in a card terminal and make a £30 transaction, who's actually talking to the bank to authorise it? Is it the card, or the terminal?

    Hint: The card has no way of communicating to the bank by itself. It's not magic, it doesn't contain any kind of hidden transmitter or anything, all it can do is verify you got your PIN correct and that the terminal isn't requesting a transaction that isn't allowed (such as above a ceiling limit). If the card is ever unhappy, it can reject the transaction or push for further security checks.

    The terminal itself has to talk to the bank. Occasionally the card will want authorisation directly from the bank (we call it "Going online") and there's a whole host of fancy to and fro between the card, the terminal and the bank so that the card knows the transaction is genuine and the bank knows the card hasn't been tampered with - with the terminal in the middle, largely being unable to touch anything. I.e. you can't tell a card you want to do a transaction for £20, then tell the bank to authorise £200 - it'll break cryptographic signatures and cause the whole thing to be void.

    Anyway, I digress. The point is, for someone to write that software that skims cards, they'll have to have a payment processor - a bank - willing to accept those funds, willing to talk to the card owner's bank. Then, that money being skimmed has to go somewhere, a bank account some place so you can actually get the money - which means there's a paper trail leading straight to you.

    Sure, you can go skim a bunch of cards, but how are you going to do it and get away with it?

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    Re: Barclays rolls out contactless cash machines

    Quote Originally Posted by Kushan View Post
    Sure, you can go skim a bunch of cards, but how are you going to do it and get away with it?
    Same way as before.... use a country that isn't so secure with the funds etc...yes there may be a trail but as has been proven before once it leaves the UK it's pretty hard to get back. While the card owner should get their money back the bank will most likely lose theirs. Also I never said anything about breaking cryptographic processes by having larger sums... lots of little sums soon add up - £30 x 1000 people (really easy in London) is £30,000....

    There used to be, may still be, a high usage of skimmed cards in places that do not use chip and pin, ie like USA did up until the massive hack of a major superstore, so there's nothing stopping that 'nothing meaningful' data on the front of the card being used either.

    One thing you find out very early on when trying to be as secure as possible (I need to be pretty secure in my work) is that NOTHING is 100% secure and that there are always ways to get something if you have the knowledge etc.

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    Re: Barclays rolls out contactless cash machines

    Quote Originally Posted by LSG501 View Post
    Same way as before.... use a country that isn't so secure with the funds etc...yes there may be a trail but as has been proven before once it leaves the UK it's pretty hard to get back. While the card owner should get their money back the bank will most likely lose theirs. Also I never said anything about breaking cryptographic processes by having larger sums... lots of little sums soon add up - £30 x 1000 people (really easy in London) is £30,000....
    What do you even mean? You're confusing two completely different things. When people clone magstripe cards, they use them in legitimate shops, but you cannot clone a contactless chip card so "Same way as before" does not apply at all.

    You cannot siphon money through bank accounts without an extremely hard to fake paper trail coming right for you. That's the point. Even in "those" countries, the banks are not going to partner with likely criminals because the banks are going to lose that money.

    Quote Originally Posted by LSG501 View Post
    There used to be, may still be, a high usage of skimmed cards in places that do not use chip and pin, ie like USA did up until the massive hack of a major superstore, so there's nothing stopping that 'nothing meaningful' data on the front of the card being used either.
    There is, even in the USA most transactions are done "online" and if the bank reports that the PAN is from a contactless card - and the terminal is contactless capable, it'll tell the terminal to ask you to present your card. Yeah, on a non-chip terminal it'll probably go through as fraud but that's nothing to do with contactless and everything to do with insecure magstripe. Right now there's literally millions of magstripe details floating around, so why bother trying to skim PANs from contactless cards when there's much, much easier ways to obtain that information and it'll be much more likely to work, too.


    Quote Originally Posted by LSG501 View Post
    One thing you find out very early on when trying to be as secure as possible (I need to be pretty secure in my work) is that NOTHING is 100% secure and that there are always ways to get something if you have the knowledge etc.
    I don't disagree with this and given what I had to do, security was a prime concern of mine as well - but the point is that Contactless isn't "Insecure" as you're making it out to be, it's as secure as chip and pin is and the low cost of transactions means it's just not worth trying to commit fraud with them.

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    Re: Barclays rolls out contactless cash machines

    Quote Originally Posted by Kushan View Post
    Someone's already mentioned this, but there's a limit to how many times a card can be used / spent on the card before it prompts for a PIN / Contact transaction.
    The reason this has been mentioned is because it's a major flaw.

    So, for a stolen card that can, as per this story remove £100 at a time, it can only be used a 'limited' number of times? So what, 5, 10, 20 lots of £100 at a time?

    Well, that's all right then.


    Personally, My view on contactless is that the ONLY benefit to me is a possible saving of a few second on payment.

    The downside is an increased risk of loss and even assuming you were to get stolen funds refunded (by no means a certainty) you still have the hassle and time-wasting of fighting the bank to get the money back. And for what? Saving a few moments here and there?

    I have no objection to banks offering contactkess facilities to those that want it. My objection is when they try to force it on those of us for whom it does NOT represenr any advantage.

    My bank agreed to replace a contactless debit card with a 'standard' non-contactless card when I objected to the contactless card they sent without asking me, but they point-blank refused to do the same when they replaced my credit card with contactles, even when I threatened to close the account. So I did close it.

    Yes, I'm aware of 'protected' wallets, cards you can insert, suggestions of microwaving the card, making small cuts to cut the internalmantenna, etc, all to prevent the contactless facility from working, but frankly, why the hell should I?

    What's the problem with either giving those of us that don't want contactless a non-contactless card, or given that transactions still surely have to be authorised, coding either the account or even flagging a contactless card as "contactless-disabled" so that they will not function as contactless?

    Contactless? No thanks.

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    Re: Barclays rolls out contactless cash machines

    I don't carry wallet around anymore in my day to day journey/shopping. Using only phone with NFC and pin verification for every transaction - the most sucure way, I guess. Can't wait till they do this for all ATM's, so if I ever need cash I don't have to go home to get card.

    And going further, can we get rid of cards, at least for people who want to use their phones. Cards to me are hassle and frankly the security on cards is archaic. You only have to take a photo of someones card to use it - how is that safe. Not to mention stupid magnetic strips which for some reason UK has not banned yet.
    Last edited by aniilv; 23-11-2016 at 04:48 AM.

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    Re: Barclays rolls out contactless cash machines

    Quote Originally Posted by Saracen View Post
    The reason this has been mentioned is because it's a major flaw.

    So, for a stolen card that can, as per this story remove £100 at a time, it can only be used a 'limited' number of times? So what, 5, 10, 20 lots of £100 at a time?

    Well, that's all right then.
    It depends on your issuer, they can configure it however they want. However, the cards track both the number of transactions and the amount spent (total) since last going online or having verified the pin. So the card might allow say 5 transactions OR up to £100, (as an example) whichever comes first before it puts the brakes on and asks for extra validation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Saracen View Post
    Personally, My view on contactless is that the ONLY benefit to me is a possible saving of a few second on payment.
    Weirdly enough, contactless is cheaper to run for both issuers and merchants so the brands are able to offer lower fees. This is why it's usually free to use contactless in shops that normally require a minimum spend. So there are other benefits beyond speed and convenience.

    Quote Originally Posted by Saracen View Post
    The downside is an increased risk of loss and even assuming you were to get stolen funds refunded (by no means a certainty) you still have the hassle and time-wasting of fighting the bank to get the money back. And for what? Saving a few moments here and there?
    It is a certainty you'll get your money back as long as you've not done anything silly (like write your PIN down). The law is pretty clear on this one. Contactless fraud actually protects you more - if someone steals your card and your PIN, banks can argue that you were negligent - however with contactless they can't do that.

    Quote Originally Posted by Saracen View Post
    I have no objection to banks offering contactkess facilities to those that want it. My objection is when they try to force it on those of us for whom it does NOT represenr any advantage.

    My bank agreed to replace a contactless debit card with a 'standard' non-contactless card when I objected to the contactless card they sent without asking me, but they point-blank refused to do the same when they replaced my credit card with contactles, even when I threatened to close the account. So I did close it.
    I can't disagree with this at all, I would much prefer consumer choice. I think Contactless should only be forced once magstripe has been completely eliminated.

    Quote Originally Posted by Saracen View Post
    Yes, I'm aware of 'protected' wallets, cards you can insert, suggestions of microwaving the card, making small cuts to cut the internalmantenna, etc, all to prevent the contactless facility from working, but frankly, why the hell should I?
    I don't think it's worth bothering with. There's no practical way to steal someone's card wirelessly, your biggest risk is someone stealing the actual card and an NFC shielding wallet isn't going to help with that.

    Quote Originally Posted by aniilv View Post
    I don't carry wallet around anymore in my day to day journey/shopping. Using only phone with NFC and pin verification for every transaction - the most sucure way, I guess. Can't wait till they do this for all ATM's, so if I ever need cash I don't have to go home to get card.

    And going further, can we get rid of cards, at least for people who want to use their phones. Cards to me are hassle and frankly the security on cards is archaic. You only have to take a photo of someones card to use it - how is that safe. Not to mention stupid magnetic strips which for some reason UK has not banned yet.
    Compatibility, sadly. The magstripe acts as a fallback when either the chip (or reader) fails or when a card doesn't actually have chip. In other words, blame the yanks

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    Re: Barclays rolls out contactless cash machines

    Quote Originally Posted by Kushan View Post
    It depends on your issuer, they can configure it however they want. However, the cards track both the number of transactions and the amount spent (total) since last going online or having verified the pin. So the card might allow say 5 transactions OR up to £100, (as an example) whichever comes first before it puts the brakes on and asks for extra validation.
    Yes, they can configure those. But in my case, they wouldn't when I asked for either contactless teansaction count to be set to zero, or max contactless transaction amount to be set to £0.

    I also asked them to reset the PIN, to something I don't know, and not send me the PIN. This would mean ANY contactless or ATM transactions were fraudulent, since they required secyrity details that had never been sent to me. That was refused too.

    Their options, on credit card, were accept contactless, or close account. I closed the account.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kushan View Post
    ...

    I don't think it's worth bothering with. There's no practical way to steal someone's card wirelessly, your biggest risk is someone stealing the actual card and an NFC shielding wallet isn't going to help with that.
    Agreed, up to a point, but there are 'variabilities' in wireless risk, not least how the readers are configured for how contactless it can be. The risks may be limited, but no encryption or comms exchange is perfect. A better phrase would be "believed to be secure, so far, until it isn't."


    Quote Originally Posted by Kushan View Post
    ...

    It is a certainty you'll get your money back as long as you've not done anything silly (like write your PIN down). The law is pretty clear on this one. Contactless fraud actually protects you more - if someone steals your card and your PIN, banks can argue that you were negligent - however with contactless they can't do that.
    ....
    Not with my bank it isn't. I read the T&Cs carefully. Very carefully. First point, T&Cs can be changed at any time by giving you 60 days notice, after which continued card use constitutes acceptance. So, every time you get one ofcthis incomprehensible leaflets, which seems to be about every third statement recently, you have to check CAREFULLY for any change in T&Cs. Have fun with that.

    Second, you're covered for anything over £50, done using a stolen card, after you reported the card stolen. So, there's an issue if you notice the card is missing.

    Third, you have 13 months from date of transaction to protest unauthorised transactions, or they are not refundable. Do you do an itemised account reconciliation to the pile of micro-transactions you do, to verify every modest charge really is your coffee, tube ticket, etc? I bet most people don't. So, if someone has access to your card periodically, perhaps from your suit jacket or office drawer while you're in a meeting, or your gym locker, or whatever, they could be charging a few quid here and there for a very longvtime before you catch on. Anything over 13 months, or that you fail to notice at all .... you WILL NOT get back. There's also the "gross negligence" exception, which opens upva whole can of worms as to exactly what contitutes gross negligence, who gets to define it, and who gets to determine whethet, at least in first instance, a given set of facts fit.

    And so on.

    But notice earlier I pointed out it's not just about whether you get money back or not, but also about the hassle of getting it, calls to customer service centres ( oh, joy), filling in of forms, writing of letters, etc, all over risks arising from a "service" I absolutely didn't want in the first place, but my bank tried to force on me despite that.

    Having been the victim of both attempted credit card fraud, and attempted online hijacking of my bank account (several years apart) and having enough stress in my life as it is, I can do without further hassles sorting out banking issues, and monitoring bank statements for tiny transactions I may not have made.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kushan View Post
    ....

    Weirdly enough, contactless is cheaper to run for both issuers and merchants so the brands are able to offer lower fees. This is why it's usually free to use contactless in shops that normally require a minimum spend. So there are other benefits beyond speed and convenience.
    ....
    Not to me. That's why I said "personally".

    I don't, and have no inclination to, use cards for small purchases. I use them very selectively for some large purchases (for s.75 CCA type protection), for occasional holiday-type use such as car hire and hitel reservations, and very occasionally, online purchases. I NEVER use them for small transactions, or ATM withdrawals, etc. That's what cash is for, and it leaves either no transaction trail or at least a far smaller one for data mining. Saving a few seconds with contactless interests me less than not at all, but keeping my activities, location and transaction history as anonymous as is pragmatically possible does.

    I get what contactless is good for .... IF you want that. It just happens I don't use cards that way, so I don't get contactless benefits.

    As for a fee, if I had to pay a modest charge to get a non-contactless card, fair enough. I don't have a problem with that.

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    Re: Barclays rolls out contactless cash machines

    Just paving the way for the RFID-CHIP BIOMETRIC CHIP IN YOUR HAND
    the mark of the beast no one will be able to buy or sell without it eventually
    read your bible.

    Tom G

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    Re: Barclays rolls out contactless cash machines

    Quote Originally Posted by Undeadllama View Post
    We're meant to be here discussing new, exciting news and advances in technology aren't we?
    What's with all the technophobia that we're so frequently subjected to in here!
    I am discussing it... well, challenging it, mainly, but I'm being open-minded and receptive about valid concerns, rather than outright phobic.
    It's also not like I'll get a choice when this one expires anyway...!

    Quote Originally Posted by Kushan View Post
    Well, they can already do that even if your card isn't contactless. Having your (contact only) card means they can go on an online shopping spree
    Easier to trace, though?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kushan View Post
    The fact that your card is contactless doesn't make it any less secure, the relatively small amounts of a contact transaction means fraud isn't really worth the effort.
    Well it kinda does... accessing a mag strip still needs technology and/or a signature match, as does cracking my PIN. Contactless just needs someone with a working arm.

    And while it might not be much in relative terms, maybe a tank of fuel for the thief, it's all I have and contactless is looking like an extra route to losing that meagre money - It's more about the inconvenience to me. Even if all they do is spend a couple hundred quid...

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    Re: Barclays rolls out contactless cash machines

    Quote Originally Posted by Neostar View Post
    You can get a wallet that can protect against cc skim
    The issue with RFID-blocking wallet (or in my case, card holder), is that they also get in the way of things -like- the Oyster cards. I know that some RFID-blocking wallet/card holder etc. are allowed for specific pass commuter pass to go through, but they are usually localised and unlikely to work when you go to another country. Which I do quite frequently.

    Quote Originally Posted by chinf View Post
    It is a cash replacement technology, and no less safe than losing cash in your wallet to the pickpocket.
    Perhaps, but while in the UK, I rarely carry more than £20, or even £10 on me. Someone with my card can usually spend more than that -per- transaction, and they may be able to get a few transactions through before I notice / they are stopped. I think that if I could set my own cap, a limit per day, I might be okay with it.

    But really, I'd much rather not have contactless payment directly linked to my bank account. I rather have it linked to my Oyster (which is not linked to my bank), so that I can choose how much or how little I have in it, much like the Japanese equivalent of the Oyster (which is pretty widely accepted in places you would use contactless). That why I get to choose exactly how much I am willing to risk based on my own assessment of the risk.

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    Re: Barclays rolls out contactless cash machines

    Thanks for contributing Kushan! What do you think of this story: https://www.theguardian.com/money/20...asy-says-which
    the gist of it is that some online shops still don't ask for the number on the back of a card to confirm a purchase, so if you can read the number and expiry date from a card contactlessly then that's enough to make fraudulent purchases. The article is a year old, but is it still possible to carry out online transactions without even the CVV code?

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    Re: Barclays rolls out contactless cash machines

    A big thank you to Kushan for explaining the contactless system; I had no idea how it worked! 0.o Just a shame you'll never convince some of the other commenters no matter how correct you are (I wonder how much they raged when checkbooks were phased out?).

    I welcome contactless as it means I don't have to carry cash anymore; running around looking for an ATM is a pain in the butt I don't want to have to deal with. Also, public transport is much speedier now the bus driver isn't fishing for 20p's for every customer.

    I think a lot of people here feel that contactless is unsafe vs. cash is because stealing cash is more 'physical' and that they could do something about that... honestly the it couldn't be less true. Those that engage in physical crimes do so because they are very good at them; you're not going to stop them.

    When contactless is fully rolled out on every card then we can start thinking about getting rid of the magstrips on the back. Magstrips are a real security hole; a thief can quickly make large and repeated purchases and the banks are way too slow to respond (if they even check signatures anymore?).

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    Re: Barclays rolls out contactless cash machines

    Quote Originally Posted by boxcat View Post
    When contactless is fully rolled out on every card then we can start thinking about getting rid of the magstrips on the back. Magstrips are a real security hole; a thief can quickly make large and repeated purchases and the banks are way too slow to respond (if they even check signatures anymore?).
    Why would contactless have anything to do with getting rid of magstripes? You have digital chips already on all the cards, no normal merchant even uses magstrips unless you go abroad to a dodgy 20year old terminal. In which case you also get mugged off. Theres loads of countries already that simply make cards without magstrips and only have the digital chips. Contactless has nothing to do with it.

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