Page 1 of 4 1234 LastLast
Results 1 to 16 of 49

Thread: Intel Core i9-7900X breaks several benchmark world records

  1. #1
    HEXUS.admin
    Join Date
    Apr 2005
    Posts
    26,074
    Thanks
    0
    Thanked
    1,401 times in 524 posts

    Intel Core i9-7900X breaks several benchmark world records

    But the off-the-shelf unmodified processor has a 'low-quality' TIM.
    Read more.

  2. #2
    Member
    Join Date
    May 2009
    Location
    Where you are not
    Posts
    124
    Thanks
    4
    Thanked
    4 times in 4 posts
    • Iota's system
      • Motherboard:
      • GA-P67A-UD5-B3
      • CPU:
      • Intel Core i7 2600K
      • Memory:
      • 2 x BL2KIT25664FN2139
      • Storage:
      • 4 x CTFDDAC064MAG-1G1 (Raid 0)
      • Graphics card(s):
      • ASUS Radeon R9 290 DC-2
      • PSU:
      • Corsair Professional Series Gold AX750
      • Case:
      • Lian Li PC-X500B
      • Operating System:
      • Windows 10 Pro 64-bit
      • Monitor(s):
      • 2x Samsung 22" widescreen P2270 2ms DVI HD LCD TFT Ecofit
      • Internet:
      • 40Mbps SKY Fibre

    Re: Intel Core i9-7900X breaks several benchmark world records

    Sadly Intel's most premium consumer processors still use a 'conventional paste' thermal interface material (TIM). They aren't soldered
    For the prices they are charging, you would have thought they would be soldered. Another reason for me to buy AMD.

  3. #3
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Dec 2013
    Posts
    1,701
    Thanks
    134
    Thanked
    152 times in 110 posts

    Re: Intel Core i9-7900X breaks several benchmark world records

    Every time someone accuses Intel of using a poor quality TIM i want to scream, do people really think a company that spends $12.7 billion on R&D is going to penny pinch when it comes to TIM for nothing but financial reasons.

  4. Received thanks from:

    Jonj1611 (31-05-2017)

  5. #4
    Registered+
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Location
    oxford
    Posts
    46
    Thanks
    1
    Thanked
    0 times in 0 posts

    Re: Intel Core i9-7900X breaks several benchmark world records

    Quote Originally Posted by Iota View Post
    For the prices they are charging, you would have thought they would be soldered. Another reason for me to buy AMD.
    I agree but solder costs money i mean they would have to add at least another $100 to solder the lids on te cpus. (sarcasm) They are bareley scracping by charging what they do, i mean look at all the innovation they have brough us in the last few years (/sarcasm).

    I have a feeling in a couple of years we will start to see the same anti competative practises admissions from some OEMs (not by the OEMs but by Intel) which we heard in the past when thunderbird etc could nbot get a foothold in the market despite being better. I mean look at whats already happening with the forcing of optane on motherboard manufacturers...

  6. #5
    Registered+
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Location
    oxford
    Posts
    46
    Thanks
    1
    Thanked
    0 times in 0 posts

    Re: Intel Core i9-7900X breaks several benchmark world records

    Quote Originally Posted by Corky34 View Post
    Every time someone accuses Intel of using a poor quality TIM i want to scream, do people really think a company that spends $12.7 billion on R&D is going to penny pinch when it comes to TIM for nothing but financial reasons.
    Why not, it happens everywhere else. Motor manufacturers spend vast amounts of R&D yet still have to issue recalls because they cheap out on a component.
    Last edited by MonkFish; 31-05-2017 at 02:44 PM. Reason: Grammar

  7. #6
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Dec 2013
    Posts
    1,701
    Thanks
    134
    Thanked
    152 times in 110 posts

    Re: Intel Core i9-7900X breaks several benchmark world records

    Quote Originally Posted by MonkFish View Post
    Why not, it happens everywhere else. Motor manufacturers spend vast amounts of R&D yet still have to issue recalls because they cheap out on a component.
    Because CPUs and material sciences isn't comparable to motor manufacturers where cheaping out on a component isn't financially, let alone scientifically, provable to be detrimental to the final product.

    And before anyone jumps down my throat I'm not saying Intel uses the best quality TIM full stop, I'm saying they use a TIM best suited for their specific needs and those needs do not include cutting costs, a TIM needs to do more than just provide low thermal resistance.

  8. Received thanks from:

    Jonj1611 (31-05-2017)

  9. #7
    Registered+
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Location
    oxford
    Posts
    46
    Thanks
    1
    Thanked
    0 times in 0 posts

    Re: Intel Core i9-7900X breaks several benchmark world records

    Quote Originally Posted by Corky34 View Post
    a TIM needs to do more than just provide low thermal resistance.
    Exactly it also has to be good value when you are applying it to million of processors.

  10. #8
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Dec 2013
    Posts
    1,701
    Thanks
    134
    Thanked
    152 times in 110 posts

    Re: Intel Core i9-7900X breaks several benchmark world records

    I'm not sure contextomy works when people can read what i said directly above your reply.

  11. #9
    Not a good person scaryjim's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Location
    Manchester
    Posts
    14,108
    Thanks
    1,113
    Thanked
    2,029 times in 1,696 posts
    • scaryjim's system
      • Motherboard:
      • HP Pavilion
      • CPU:
      • A10 4600M
      • Memory:
      • 2x 4GB DDR3-1600 SODIMM
      • Storage:
      • 1TB HDD
      • Graphics card(s):
      • Radeon HD7660G (IGP)
      • PSU:
      • Battery/HP 19v brick
      • Case:
      • HP Pavilion G6
      • Operating System:
      • Windows 10
      • Monitor(s):
      • 15" 1366x768 laptop panel

    Re: Intel Core i9-7900X breaks several benchmark world records

    Quote Originally Posted by Corky34 View Post
    ... I'm not saying Intel uses the best quality TIM full stop, I'm saying they use a TIM best suited for their specific needs and those needs do not include cutting costs ...
    I'd be intrigued to know what other need you think using TIM instead of solder meets? Perhaps Intel's silicon process is more fragile than GloFo's and they can't heat them up sufficiently to melt the solder...?

  12. #10
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jul 2009
    Location
    West Sussex
    Posts
    923
    Thanks
    48
    Thanked
    114 times in 108 posts
    • kompukare's system
      • Motherboard:
      • Asus P8Z77-V LX
      • CPU:
      • Intel i5-3570K
      • Memory:
      • 2 x 8GB Crucial Ballistix Elite PC3-14900
      • Storage:
      • Crucial MX200 | Sandisk Extreme 120GB SSD | WDC 1TB Green | Samsung 1Tb Spinpoint
      • Graphics card(s):
      • Sapphire R9 290 VaporX 7950
      • PSU:
      • Antec 650 Gold TruePower (Seasonic) or Seasonic SII-330
      • Case:
      • Aerocool DS 200 (silenced, 53.6 litres)l)
      • Operating System:
      • Windows 10-64
      • Monitor(s):
      • 2 x Dell P2414H

    Re: Intel Core i9-7900X breaks several benchmark world records

    Quote Originally Posted by scaryjim View Post
    I'd be intrigued to know what other need you think using TIM instead of solder meets? Perhaps Intel's silicon process is more fragile than GloFo's and they can't heat them up sufficiently to melt the solder...?
    While not impossible, the fact that all previous HEDT chips including Broadwell-E (also on 14nm) were soldered makes that a bit unlikely though. And as the Haswell Refresh showed, even Intel acknowledge that their previous TIM wasn't very good and went on about their next-generation polymer thermal interface material (NGPTIM). So I think the far more likely explanation is that Intel feel that their TIM is good enough and that equally applies to a $42 Celeron as it does to a $1999 18-core i9.

    Out of interest, does anyone know if their subsequent CPUs (Skylake, Kabylake) use the old TIM or NGPTIM?

  13. #11
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Dec 2013
    Posts
    1,701
    Thanks
    134
    Thanked
    152 times in 110 posts

    Re: Intel Core i9-7900X breaks several benchmark world records

    Quote Originally Posted by scaryjim View Post
    I'd be intrigued to know what other need you think using TIM instead of solder meets? Perhaps Intel's silicon process is more fragile than GloFo's and they can't heat them up sufficiently to melt the solder...?
    Not being a material scientist myself I'm only going on research papers I've read but from what i read about it indium solder started causing problems when die sizes started shrinking, OTTOMH i can't remember when Intel made the switch and what the dies size was, however they started detecting cracks and voiding within the solder joint, and i assume things like pump out and drying out is accepted as possible problems when using thermal grease.

    Overclocking guide covered some of the problems with solder joints in this article back in 2015, if you really want to geek out though Intel published a more technical look at the problem in their technology journal back in 2008 (PDF).

  14. Received thanks from:

    Pleiades (31-05-2017),scaryjim (31-05-2017)

  15. #12
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2016
    Posts
    219
    Thanks
    0
    Thanked
    6 times in 5 posts

    Re: Intel Core i9-7900X breaks several benchmark world records

    "OMG! I missed the bus and will now have to wait 5 minutes for the next one... I'm buying AMD! (As it's the latest cool thing to say)"

  16. #13
    Anti-Viral Pleiades's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2004
    Location
    Amongst barbarians
    Posts
    892
    Thanks
    1,271
    Thanked
    52 times in 41 posts
    • Pleiades's system
      • Motherboard:
      • MSI Z-97 Gaming 5
      • CPU:
      • 4690K @ 4GHz / Phanteks TC-12DX
      • Memory:
      • 16 GiB HyperX
      • Storage:
      • Sandisk 480GiB; Transcend M.2 256GiB; Velociraptor 300GB
      • Graphics card(s):
      • Gigabyte R280X
      • PSU:
      • BeQuiet Straight Power 800w
      • Case:
      • CoolerMaster HAF932
      • Operating System:
      • Win 10
      • Monitor(s):
      • Dell 2005 20"; Qnix 27" 2560x1440 120hz IPS
      • Internet:
      • Virgin 70 Mibs

    Question Re: Intel Core i9-7900X breaks several benchmark world records

    Quote Originally Posted by excalibur1814 View Post
    "OMG! I missed the bus and will now have to wait 5 minutes for the next one... I'm buying AMD! (As it's the latest cool thing to say)"
    You're not making sense
    ------------------

    Valar Morghulis

  17. #14
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    May 2014
    Posts
    438
    Thanks
    21
    Thanked
    32 times in 22 posts

    Re: Intel Core i9-7900X breaks several benchmark world records

    People scream when the TIM thing is brought up but there is a great example here that proves Intel need delidding. If they didn't, why would there be so many tools to do it for Intel CPUs but barely any for AMD. It was said when people were reviewing the 1800x and 1700 when overclocking they saw no discernible difference (delidded if they managed) or not. I think it was der8auer or another top overclocker who uses sub-zero cooling, I will need to dredge them up.

    Edit: Found it without having to watch der8auers video: https://www.digitaltrends.com/comput...g-unnecessary/
    Last edited by Tabbykatze; 31-05-2017 at 04:53 PM.

  18. #15
    Not a good person scaryjim's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Location
    Manchester
    Posts
    14,108
    Thanks
    1,113
    Thanked
    2,029 times in 1,696 posts
    • scaryjim's system
      • Motherboard:
      • HP Pavilion
      • CPU:
      • A10 4600M
      • Memory:
      • 2x 4GB DDR3-1600 SODIMM
      • Storage:
      • 1TB HDD
      • Graphics card(s):
      • Radeon HD7660G (IGP)
      • PSU:
      • Battery/HP 19v brick
      • Case:
      • HP Pavilion G6
      • Operating System:
      • Windows 10
      • Monitor(s):
      • 15" 1366x768 laptop panel

    Re: Intel Core i9-7900X breaks several benchmark world records

    Quote Originally Posted by Corky34 View Post
    ... from what i read about it indium solder started causing problems when die sizes started shrinking ... they started detecting cracks and voiding within the solder joint ...
    Thanks, interesting stuff.

    That said, the 2008 paper was about Intel's move to Indium based STIM, not away from (it was part of the lead-free program). Yes, they discussed issues with the material, but in terms of issues they were able to overcome/design around.

    The 2015 article touches on increasing failure rates for very small dies*, so I guess you can understand why they'd go for a paste for KBL-X where you've got the same small die problem as with standard SKL/KBL. I guess that also potentially explains why AMD are OK soldering Ryzen (which I believe is somewhere between 180mm2 and 220mm2).

    Skylake-X, OTOH, is still a pretty big die. And it's derived from server/workstation chips which are often used in thermally challenging environments. I find it hard to believe that there's a genuine technical issue with soldering those, particularly when AMD are soldering similar size (if not smaller) dies without issue.

    Having now read up on how complex the process of soldering an IHS is, I suspect that at least part of the decision was financial. I reckon there's at least three production processes they can save money and time on if they go for paste rather than solder. The move away from solder may have been predicated by technical issues with small chips, but the decision to apply it to the entire product range...? I see $$$$ and hear ka-chings....


    * which, as a cheeky aside, is actually a rather serious cost-related issue; if chips are failing due to the soldering process that costs Intel money

  19. #16
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Dec 2013
    Posts
    1,701
    Thanks
    134
    Thanked
    152 times in 110 posts

    Re: Intel Core i9-7900X breaks several benchmark world records

    Quote Originally Posted by scaryjim View Post
    That said, the 2008 paper was about Intel's move to Indium based STIM, not away from (it was part of the lead-free program). Yes, they discussed issues with the material, but in terms of issues they were able to overcome/design around.
    Yea sorry about that, the Intel technology journal sort of waffles on a bit and used parts of the original research that i was having problems finding at the time, this was is the research paper i wanted/should have referenced (PDF).

    Quote Originally Posted by scaryjim View Post
    Having now read up on how complex the process of soldering an IHS is, I suspect that at least part of the decision was financial. I reckon there's at least three production processes they can save money and time on if they go for paste rather than solder. The move away from solder may have been predicated by technical issues with small chips, but the decision to apply it to the entire product range...? I see $$$$ and hear ka-chings....
    Yea i get that feeling too, being generous I'd say they realised soldering smaller dies was becoming problematic and instead of having two separate processes they just made the switch to grease across the whole lineup, i guess that could be seen as financially driven or just accepting the inevitable.
    Last edited by Corky34; 31-05-2017 at 05:59 PM.

Page 1 of 4 1234 LastLast

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •