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Thread: Reviews - NVIDIA GeForce GTX TITAN

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    Re: Reviews - NVIDIA GeForce GTX TITAN

    Quote Originally Posted by Willzzz View Post
    you might want to use a SFF case.
    That link on the French website(actually the main French computer review website) was concerning for me. I use SFF cases,and the fact is that Geforce Titan needs good cooling otherwise it looks like the GPU does not boost very highly and there are SFF systems being sold with it.

    Review systems in many cases are open air test benches in air conditioned offices(not all). High end cases might be fine especially if you use custom water cooling though. The blower type fans(which I use) tend to pick up dust quite quickly,which affects cooling performance.

    Here are 2 examples with Anno 2070 and Battlefield 3 with a rapid test, test temperature stabilized and the same test but with the latter two 120mm fans positioned around the map:

    Anno 2070: 75 fps -> 63 fps -> 68 fps
    Battlefield 3: 115 fps -> 107 fps -> 114 fps

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    Re: Reviews - NVIDIA GeForce GTX TITAN

    Quote Originally Posted by CAT-THE-FIFTH View Post
    That link on the French website(actually the main French computer review website) was concerning for me. I use SFF cases,and the fact is that Geforce Titan needs good cooling otherwise it looks like the GPU does not boost very highly and there are SFF systems being sold with it.
    OTOH, its still most GPU power available in such a small space even if it doesn't boost up much?
    Kalniel: "Nice review Tarinder - would it be possible to get a picture of the case when the components are installed (with the side off obviously)?"
    CAT-THE-FIFTH: "The Antec 300 is a case which has an understated and clean appearance which many people like. Not everyone is into e-peen looking computers which look like a cross between the imagination of a hyperactive 10 year old and a Frog."
    TKPeters: "Off to AVForum better Deal - £20+Vat for Free Shipping @ Scan"
    for all intents it seems to be the same card minus some gays name on it and a shielded cover ? with OEM added to it - GoNz0.

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    Re: Reviews - NVIDIA GeForce GTX TITAN

    Quote Originally Posted by Terbinator View Post
    OTOH, its still most GPU power available in such a small space even if it doesn't boost up much?
    OTH,the reviews are not giving a full indication of actual performance,in that case?? Anno 2070 performance dropped by over 15% it seems.

    Someone buys such a system and will be getting less performance than they think.

    Add to the limited case cooling,dust building up,high temperatures during summer or when the heating is on,and it is an issue for a SFF PC.

    Maybe a Bitfenix Prodigy would be fine but that is a large mini-ITX case. Not sure with a Shuttle though!!
    Last edited by CAT-THE-FIFTH; 21-02-2013 at 04:45 PM.

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    Re: Reviews - NVIDIA GeForce GTX TITAN

    Quote Originally Posted by Willzzz View Post
    And there is a lot more to graphics cards than performance.
    Like? Prettiness? Shiny stickers? Performance, price, efficiency, noise and for some, physical size, are the only sensible metrics I can think of. And improving one often harms at least most of the others.

    Cars? Performance (which covers everything from acceleration to grip, to braking), build quality, fuel efficiency, interior style, accessories, safety ratings, ride comfort, practicality, seating capacity, storage capacity, turning circle, ride height (speedbumps etc), appearance, tax band, insurance cost, driving experience. Need I continue? An Aerial Atom beats a lot of supercars round a track for a fraction of the price. It's not terribly practical though.

    I'm just trying to point out it's not a brilliant analogy to constantly use over and over. GPUs all do essentially the same thing. Cars mean more than that to a lot of people.

    I don't disagree it has it's place, but except for a very niche market, it makes far more sense, given the current price, to go for an alternative.

    Micro-stutter is often an over-used term, and even where it does exist, some people don't notice it. The difference from 2-3 cards is negligible (for lots of cards, not just Titan), but if you're spending that much, how sensible it is probably isn't very important.

    Bragging rights (although why someone thinks spending an absurd amount of money on PC hardware makes them feel superior is beyond me) probably accounts for a lot of the market for this card.
    Last edited by watercooled; 21-02-2013 at 04:51 PM.

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    Re: Reviews - NVIDIA GeForce GTX TITAN

    Quote Originally Posted by CAT-THE-FIFTH View Post
    OTH,the reviews are not giving a full indication of actual performance though?? Anno 2070 performance dropped by over 15% though.
    I just don't see the issue. It was always obvious that you won't hit clock target X if temp target Y wasn't met before hand, not to mention it was still north of 60FPS. I get dips down to 40FPS sometimes in League of Legends, its could just be attributed to 'one of those things'.

    But like i say, its still the fastest SFF offering?
    Kalniel: "Nice review Tarinder - would it be possible to get a picture of the case when the components are installed (with the side off obviously)?"
    CAT-THE-FIFTH: "The Antec 300 is a case which has an understated and clean appearance which many people like. Not everyone is into e-peen looking computers which look like a cross between the imagination of a hyperactive 10 year old and a Frog."
    TKPeters: "Off to AVForum better Deal - £20+Vat for Free Shipping @ Scan"
    for all intents it seems to be the same card minus some gays name on it and a shielded cover ? with OEM added to it - GoNz0.

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    Re: Reviews - NVIDIA GeForce GTX TITAN

    Quote Originally Posted by Terbinator View Post
    I just don't see the issue. It was always obvious that you won't hit clock target X if temp target Y wasn't met before hand, not to mention it was still north of 60FPS. I get dips down to 40FPS sometimes in League of Legends, its could just be attributed to 'one of those things'.

    But like i say, its still the fastest SFF offering?
    Whats the point of reading a review then?? Why are you making excuses??

    If you think 15% to 20% lower performance is OK,then what happens with a game like this:

    http://img.hexus.net/v2/graphics_car...n/f343d/JC.png



    It goes down to GTX680/HD7970 level performance. So no,in that case it is not the fastest solution.

    Then when the GTX780,comes out it might actually be faster in a TDP limited situation.

    I have been into SFF PCs far longer than you,so really now??

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    Re: Reviews - NVIDIA GeForce GTX TITAN

    meh - i did pm Tarinder , you really shoudd have aadded 7870 in CF to the review (and gtx 660ti in sli ) ; to give a value comparison....

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    Re: Reviews - NVIDIA GeForce GTX TITAN

    Quote Originally Posted by CAT-THE-FIFTH View Post
    Whats the point of reading a review then?? Why are you making excuses??

    If you think 15% to 20% lower performance is OK,then what happens with a game like this:

    http://img.hexus.net/v2/graphics_car...n/f343d/JC.png

    What has reading a review got to do with anything?

    I clearly said i don't see the issue of the temperature thing because it isn't one. It's no different in principle to what we had on the 6xx or Turbo on CPUs etc. Should we expect reviewers to go back and restart everything in a warm environment? No, its ridiculous.

    You will still get the titan's base speed of 860Mhz or whatever it is, you may just not get the massive 21MHz boost. If its throttling beyond its base clock then the system in question really does need to go back as that would be offering up less than advertised.
    Kalniel: "Nice review Tarinder - would it be possible to get a picture of the case when the components are installed (with the side off obviously)?"
    CAT-THE-FIFTH: "The Antec 300 is a case which has an understated and clean appearance which many people like. Not everyone is into e-peen looking computers which look like a cross between the imagination of a hyperactive 10 year old and a Frog."
    TKPeters: "Off to AVForum better Deal - £20+Vat for Free Shipping @ Scan"
    for all intents it seems to be the same card minus some gays name on it and a shielded cover ? with OEM added to it - GoNz0.

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    Senior Member watercooled's Avatar
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    Re: Reviews - NVIDIA GeForce GTX TITAN

    Quote Originally Posted by HalloweenJack View Post
    meh - i did pm Tarinder , you really shoudd have aadded 7870 in CF to the review (and gtx 660ti in sli ) ; to give a value comparison....
    Hmm, that could be interesting. You have another vote from me, if it's possible.

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    Re: Reviews - NVIDIA GeForce GTX TITAN

    Here are 2 examples with Anno 2070 and Battlefield 3 with a rapid test, test temperature stabilized and the same test but with the latter two 120mm fans positioned around the map:

    Anno 2070: 75 fps -> 63 fps -> 68 fps
    Battlefield 3: 115 fps -> 107 fps -> 114 fps

    The drop in performance once the temperature reaches cruising can be considerable. Efficient cooling can partially compensate for this decline, but there not a contradiction in having to add noise to compensate for a graphics card is trying to remain discreet at all costs?

    It also raises the issue of reliability of performance comparisons that you can read here and there, since this may be the big difference depending on the test conditions (ventilation card but wait or not temperature rise of the GPU for measurements) between extreme cases the gain is 19% in Anno 2070 and 7.5% in Battlefield 3!

    The frequencies that we obtained in practice for two selected scenarios: limited to 889 MHz map without additional cooling / card capable of up to 1006 MHz with additional cooling. 3DMark is only able to maintain the highest frequencies through the loading time between scenes that allow the GPU never have time to reach 80 ° C.

    3DMark Fire Strike: 889/1006 MHz
    Unigne Heaven 4.0: 876/954 MHz
    Unigne Valley 1.0: 876/954 MHz
    1920 Alan Wake Max: 876/993 MHz
    Alan Wake 2560 Very High: 837/928 MHz
    2560 Alan Wake Max: 876/954 MHz
    Anno 2070: 837/902 MHz
    Assassin's Creed MSAA4x March 1920: 876/967 MHz
    Assassin's Creed March 2560 FXAA HQ: 850/941 MHz
    Assassin's Creed MSAA4x March 2560: 850/928 MHz
    Batman Arkham City AA8x: 876/993 MHz
    Batman Arkham City 2560 AA4x: 876/954 MHz
    Battlefield March 1920 MSAA 4x: 876/993 MHz
    Battlefield 3 2560: 850/928 MHz
    Battlefield March 2560 MSAA 4x: 876/954 MHz
    Civilization V AA8x 1920: 850/928 MHz
    Civilization V AA4x 2560: 837/902 MHz
    Civilization V AA8x 2560: 863/954 MHz
    February 1920 Crysis Ultra: 876/993 MHz
    February 2560 Crysis Extreme: 876/954 MHz
    February 2560 Crysis Ultra: 863/967 MHz
    DiRT Showdown 1920 Ultra: 876/954 MHz
    DiRT Showdown 2560 Ultra AL OFF: 837/928 MHz
    DiRT Showdown 2560 Ultra: 863/941 MHz
    Far Cry AA4x March 1920: 876/954 MHz
    Far Cry 3 2560: 850/928 MHz
    Hitman Absolution: 876/993 MHz
    Max Payne 3 4x AA: 876/954 MHz
    Max Payne March 2560 NOAA: 850/941 MHz
    Sleeping Dogs: 837/902 MHz
    The Witcher 2 Enhanced Edition: 876/954 MHz
    Total War Shogun MSAA4x February 1920: 837/928 MHz
    Total War Shogun February 2560 MLAA: 837/928 MHz
    Total War Shogun February 2560 MSAA 4x: 837/901 MHz
    Quote Originally Posted by Terbinator View Post
    What has reading a review got to do with anything?

    I clearly said i don't see the issue of the temperature thing because it isn't one. It's no different in principle to what we had on the 6xx or Turbo on CPUs etc. Should we expect reviewers to go back and restart everything in a warm environment? No, its ridiculous.

    You will still get the titan's base speed of 860Mhz or whatever it is, you may just not get the massive 21MHz boost. If its throttling beyond its base clock then the system in question really does need to go back as that would be offering up less than advertised.
    A well known French website did the test,and look,it boosts more than what Nvidia says. So those performance figures are dependent on good cooling. It also appears the card in throttling under Anno2070 on a test bench.

    If performance drops a decent amount it comes into the same league as cheaper cards which won't throttle in a SFF PC. Hence the user can get the same performance from a cheaper card.

    If you don't get into your head,thats your problem.

    Complain to that website then,why they actually bothered to do some additional testing.
    Last edited by CAT-THE-FIFTH; 21-02-2013 at 05:06 PM.

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    Re: Reviews - NVIDIA GeForce GTX TITAN

    Hmmm, I'm not really sure I see the value in NVidia boasting about having the fastest single GPU graphics card. A single graphics card yes (which they've lost hands down), but a single chip? Wake up and smell the 21st century!

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    Re: Reviews - NVIDIA GeForce GTX TITAN

    Quote Originally Posted by CAT-THE-FIFTH View Post
    A well known French website did the test,and look,it boosts more than what Nvidia says. So those performance figures are dependent on good cooling. If you don't get into your head,thats your problem. Complain to that website then,why they actually bothered to do some additional testing.
    Like the series of cards that came before it...
    Kalniel: "Nice review Tarinder - would it be possible to get a picture of the case when the components are installed (with the side off obviously)?"
    CAT-THE-FIFTH: "The Antec 300 is a case which has an understated and clean appearance which many people like. Not everyone is into e-peen looking computers which look like a cross between the imagination of a hyperactive 10 year old and a Frog."
    TKPeters: "Off to AVForum better Deal - £20+Vat for Free Shipping @ Scan"
    for all intents it seems to be the same card minus some gays name on it and a shielded cover ? with OEM added to it - GoNz0.

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    Re: Reviews - NVIDIA GeForce GTX TITAN

    Quote Originally Posted by watercooled View Post
    Like? Prettiness? Shiny stickers? Performance, price, efficiency, noise and for some, physical size, are the only sensible metrics I can think of. And improving one often harms at least most of the others.

    Cars? Performance (which covers everything from acceleration to grip, to braking), build quality, fuel efficiency, interior style, accessories, safety ratings, ride comfort, practicality, seating capacity, storage capacity, turning circle, ride height (speedbumps etc), appearance, tax band, insurance cost, driving experience. Need I continue? An Aerial Atom beats a lot of supercars round a track for a fraction of the price. It's not terribly practical though.

    I'm just trying to point out it's not a brilliant analogy to constantly use over and over. GPUs all do essentially the same thing. Cars mean more than that to a lot of people.

    I don't disagree it has it's place, but except for a very niche market, it makes far more sense, given the current price, to go for an alternative.

    Micro-stutter is often an over-used term, and even where it does exist, some people don't notice it. The difference from 2-3 cards is negligible (for lots of cards, not just Titan), but if you're spending that much, how sensible it is probably isn't very important.

    Bragging rights (although why someone thinks spending an absurd amount of money on PC hardware makes them feel superior is beyond me) probably accounts for a lot of the market for this card.
    Prettiness and bragging rights probably accounts for a lot of luxury car sales as well.

    This is going to be a very niche market, but that doesn't make it a bad card.

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    Re: Reviews - NVIDIA GeForce GTX TITAN

    Suppose so. I do see your point, and I do get some people favour raw performance over all else (although performance/watt is actually better than I expected here), but speaking logically, I think it would make more sense to go with something else based on current pricing. Just because you can literally afford to buy something doesn't mean it's the best choice.

    Edit: I don't think it's necessarily a bad card, just poorly priced. But if it were too cheap, it would likely cannibalise the some of the 690 market. Still, it's a price/sale trade-off and I don't claim to be any expert at marketing, but I expect they could make more money from a greater volume of lower priced sales? Or maybe they just don't have enough working silicon to do that? TDP and enabled cores suggests yield may not be as bad as some (myself included) expected for GK110, OTOH, they might be terrible and they've aimed too high with the specs so need the high price to hold their margins?
    Last edited by watercooled; 21-02-2013 at 05:22 PM.

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    Re: Reviews - NVIDIA GeForce GTX TITAN

    Quote Originally Posted by brasco View Post
    Just as an FYI about the LuxMark, the OpenCL drivers are borked in the release/review drivers according to AnandTech, so they can only improve.

    Will be getting a couple as soon as I can... For the compute not the gaming, although that's an nice bonus!
    Its a shame this is not priced more like a GTX580 3GB,but OTH for your rendering work this will work out well, even in regards to value!

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    Re: Reviews - NVIDIA GeForce GTX TITAN

    I presume they have limited quantities of silicon. It may be a capacity issue rather than a yield issue. Mind you maybe we will see cheaper versions with fewer SMXs sometime down the line.

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