Amazingly curious. We spotted similar when the first shots came out, but there's space for more power phases and a full 8GB RAM/256 bus, which would create a nice product between the 1060 and 1070 - perhaps analogous to AMD's tonga/285.Originally Posted by watercooled
Its most likely Nvidia might launch a GP104 based SKU - a GTX1060TI anybody?? It might be what that SA article was talking about a while back.
Right, but why the extra spaces on the GP106 board?
I wouldn't have thought so with this die because of the bus width, 3GB or 6GB can fill the controller evenly, 4/8GB would be lopsided. That can lead to suddenly slower access to memory if you push into that last 1/2GB because of having to share the one 64-bit 'channel' with another memory IC. That's probably not a sensible thing for Nvidia to do after the 970 fiasco (although they seemed to get 'punished' for that by people running out and giving them more money for 980s- maybe they will do it again???)
It's not unheard of though, I think the 660Ti did it. It's not as severe as the 970's problem though.
Last edited by watercooled; 20-07-2016 at 02:21 PM.
Standard PCB? might be the same PCB used on the 1070?
Salazaar : <Touching wood as I write this...>
No, the cards are custom but that MSI board looks strikingly similar to the MSI custom 1080 board. Knock off a few phases, remove the SLI fingers, voila (or after brexit perhaps I should say "there ya go me ole china").
Now if Nvidia have banned SLI, then that mandates a new board for the 1060 even if the chips involved are pin compatible. If you are forced to re-work, you may as well do some obvious cost reductions where necessary (can't use so many phases with a single 6 pin connector) but leaving build options open makes sense.
I suspect the board leaves open the possibility of a 1080 ITX variant, lower TDP but full bus width.
This also explains how custom boards for 1060 were out so fast, deleting a few components and doing a sister board variant layout isn't that much work compared to designing a board from scratch!
Possibly because that is the reference GTX1060TI board??
But it could be something else - the GP106 used in the GTX1060 is not fully enabled. It might have a 256 bit memory controller,meaning Nvidia can do a cheap refresh range at a later date.
If you look at the TPU review of the GTX1060 it looks quite bandwidth limited and remember it is a 48 ROP design too.
You're both suggesting GP106 is pin compatible with GP104??! Amazingly clever if so.
I edited my last reply - it could be the GP106 we are seeing now is not fully enabled too.
Yup, that's my conclusion at the moment.
I'm not going to go through this with a fine tooth comb, we obviously have different perspectives on this, but I do want to answer a couple of points:
No, I'm not. I'm looking at it from a business perspective. You're looking at it from an enthusiast perspective, thinking that AMD and nvidia must compete aggressively with each other at every market point where they both have a card. AMD don't need to win every battle. They can win the war by taking huge swathes of the actual mainstream with the RX 470 and RX 460. The RX 480 & GTX 1060 are both priced outside the mainstream space.
I assume you mean custom cards here - there are plenty of reference RX 480s in stock - https://www.overclockers.co.uk/search?sSearch=RX+480 - there are 5 cards on the first page of that search showing 10+ in stock.
Enthusiasts may not, but I do. The RX 480 is a worse card than the GTX 1060 on every aspect but price, and there's not much in it there.
But here's the difference CAT - you think the GTX 1060 being better than the RX 480 matters. You think AMD need to beat nvidia at every price point where they both have a card. But that's simply not true. AMD need market share. And it's not the enthusiast part of the market where they're really lacking; we know the 290/Fury cards did pretty well. it's the mainstream. It's attachments to big OEM desktops, which all fall in the mainstream segment and pretty much all currently come with nvidia graphics. It's attachment ot big OEM laptops, which, again, are almost all nvidia. It's discrete channel sales in the sub $200 bracket, where the GTX 960/950/750 Ti have been ruling the roost for a couple of years. That's where they need to focus their efforts.
The key will be the RX 470 launch. If we're having this same conversation about that card (and the GTX 1050, maybe?) then AMD will have messed up. But I don't think the RX 480 was ever meant to be the volume selling card from this launch. I think AMD won't care that the GTX 1060 is faster than the RX 480, because I think custom RX 470s will be faster than the reference RX 480. And that's the card we really need to watch.
EDIT:
One last thought: if we run with the assumption that the custom RX 480s were essentially ready weeks or months ago but haven't been sent out, perhaps that's down to AMD wanting to see what the GTX 1060 did so they could work with partners to set boost and memory cocks that would beat a reference GTX 1060? It would've been worse for AMD to seed the press with custom cards last week only to discover that the GTX 1060 was faster than the custom cards they'd already sent out....
Last edited by scaryjim; 20-07-2016 at 02:54 PM.
Sorry but I am the one looking at it form a business perspective. You don't seem to get repeatedly that all the GTX1060 FE and AIB reviews are against reference cards.I'm not going to go through this with a fine tooth comb, we obviously have different perspectives on this, but I do want to answer a couple of points:
No, I'm not. I'm looking at it from a business perspective. You're looking at it from an enthusiast perspective, thinking that AMD and nvidia must compete aggressively with each other at every market point where they both have a card. AMD don't need to win every battle. They can win the war by taking huge swathes of the actual mainstream with the RX 470 and RX 460. The RX 480 & GTX 1060 are both priced outside the mainstream space.
Gamers on forums and on YT channels have these cards now,and that is where AMD is loosing big time,once they start extolling the virtues how much better their AIB GTX1060 is when compared to the reference RX480.
Most of the younger gamers,seem to far more interested in Nvidia products too - it does not help when AMD is not presenting their own products in the best light.
FFS - look at the last few AMD single GPU card launches since 2013:
1.)R7 260X - meh
3.)R9 280/280X - a bit hit and miss
2.)R9 290/290X - starts off good and then descends into failure
3.)R9 285 - AMD seeds the worst performance/watt R9 285 card out there,and it looks a backward step since Nvidia has just launched Maxwell MK2
4.)R9 300 series - actually is not too bad at all
5.)Fury launch - more disaster
6.)RX 480 - more niggles
Compare that to the last few Nvidia launches:
1.)Geforce Titan - decent but pricey
2.)GTX780 - decent but pricey
3.)GTX780TI - decent but pricey
4.)GTX770 - not too bad
5.)GTX760 - not too bad
6.)GTX750/GTX750TI - perfect but considered slightly pricey
7.)GTX970/GTX980 - first is perfect and second perfect but considered slightly pricey
8.)GTX960 - considered a tad underpowered but considered better than the R9 285
9.)GTX950 - much the same as the GTX960 but better than the AMD competitor the R7 370
8.)GTX1070 and GTX1080 - perfect but pricey
9.)GTX1060 - perfect
This is what a non-enthusiast will see just quickly reading a few reviews or glancing through a few magazines. Heck,go onto YT channels and gaming ones even.
This is sadly what I get from a lot of non-enthusiasts. Nvidia is "better" and no wonder with the fact their launches are mostly positive.
Like I said AMD needs to not lose the momentum on the RX480 launch,and not getting AIB cards out for review was a major mis-step IMHO.
I assume you mean custom cards here - there are plenty of reference RX 480s in stock - https://www.overclockers.co.uk/search?sSearch=RX+480 - there are 5 cards on the first page of that search showing 10+ in stock.
For the last few weeks,they have not been in stock and the few that were,were like £260?? They only dropped in price with the GTX1060 launch arrived - the same as Sapphire suddenly dropping the price on the RX480 4GB. Gibbo was on record saying he pushed for AIB RX480 4GB cards.
BTW,some of those reference cards were the SAME price as AIB GTX1060 cards and they only dropped because the GTX1060 landed.
But the problem is that in this social media age,AMD does not have the top spot,ie,has no halo marketing.Enthusiasts may not, but I do. The RX 480 is a worse card than the GTX 1060 on every aspect but price, and there's not much in it there.
But here's the difference CAT - you think the GTX 1060 being better than the RX 480 matters. You think AMD need to beat nvidia at every price point where they both have a card. But that's simply not true. AMD need market share. And it's not the enthusiast part of the market where they're really lacking; we know the 290/Fury cards did pretty well. it's the mainstream. It's attachments to big OEM desktops, which all fall in the mainstream segment and pretty much all currently come with nvidia graphics. It's attachment ot big OEM laptops, which, again, are almost all nvidia. It's discrete channel sales in the sub $200 bracket, where the GTX 960/950/750 Ti have been ruling the roost for a couple of years. That's where they need to focus their efforts.
The key will be the RX 470 launch. If we're having this same conversation about that card (and the GTX 1050, maybe?) then AMD will have messed up. But I don't think the RX 480 was ever meant to be the volume selling card from this launch. I think AMD won't care that the GTX 1060 is faster than the RX 480, because I think custom RX 470s will be faster than the reference RX 480. And that's the card we really need to watch.
You see it even with laptops sales too - Apple went with AMD and yet you have loads of their fans saying they should have stayed with Nvidia since it is "better".
If Nvidia now makes AMD look worse in the £200 to £300 market it pushes AMD down and down to lower margin areas.
Remember,due to the weak pound the RX480 and GTX1060 are probably 10% more expensive they probably would have been - that is close to the £200 mark for the cheaper models. That is the sort of price range cards like the GTX460 were around.
Plus we saw how the GTX970 for only £50 more sold loads more than the previous generation £250 card(sales in that area doubled last year according to JPR).
The worse thing is that the RX480 is no 2900XT or 8500. It looks worse than it is due to AMD having a crap stock cooler(so not to step on the toes of AIB partners supposedly) and then for some reason,they have a six pin power connector when the card is slightly over 150W for board power in reality.
Yet,they have a massively over engineered PCB and power section,when the card cannot even use it.
Its hilarious - Nvidia with their FE GTX1060 has a more appropriate PCB and cooler for its class.
This is why I am so annoyed at what AMD has done - they should have pushed to get at least a few AIB RX480 cards out this week.
Now,for the next few months EVERY time somebody looks for a GTX1060 FE or AIB review it will be pitted against the reference RX480 - just like what happened with the R9 290/290X series. Then AMD gets the "hot" and "consumes too much power" and "under-performs" moniker lumped onto the whole blasted range.
Regarding the RX470 it might be the case,especially if the GTX1050TI is only a 3GB card,but Nvidia has had success in selling RAM gimped cards in the past sadly,unless they use it to successfully up-sell the GTX1060 instead.
It also means all the cards under it will also get a sort of mini-halo effect from the GTX1060.
AMD needs perfect launches so to drive mindshare towards it - if they can only compete with a GTX1050,it makes it comparatively worse than the HD3000 series and AMD had much more sales marketshare back then.
Last edited by CAT-THE-FIFTH; 20-07-2016 at 03:42 PM.
But Vega's going to be great, right?
Separated at birth? 1060 vs 1080 MSI custom cards, look at the cut & paste on that:
You're missing the point again CAT. nvidia aren't pushing AMD out of the £200 - £300 market, AMD are choosing to leave it.
AMD haven't turned a profit worth mentioning in over 4 years, partly because they've had to sell what should've been high margin parts with very low margins. I suspect that's exactly because they're currently technologically behind nvidia. They're haemorraging money, they operate at around half the gross profit margins of their immediate competitors, they have very small market shares in both CPU and GPU, and they need to do something to address that.
I can't find any good figures for market size by price bracket, but given that in 2015 "enthusiast" GPUs - apparently priced from ~ $350 - were only 15% of the total market, I think it's not unreasonable to assume that more than half the market is for cards costing < $200. It's that mass market that AMD are targeting - the profit margins in that market are probably comparable with their normal gross margins anyway. The best way back to profitability for AMD is by increasing volume, and fighting nvidia in the £250+ market isn't going to do that for them - they'd be throwing good money after bad. As I said, they actually made a reasonable fist of the initial launch of the RX 480, and sold lots of high margin reference cards on the back of it. I'm pretty sure that they have chosen not to fight the GTX 1060 so they can instead concentrate their limited resources on the RX 470 and RX 460 launches, particularly the RX 460 - that's the one that will find its way into high volume system integrator boxes and laptops, and give them a shot at picking up market share against nvidia.
EDIT:
I wouldn't go that far, but they've obviously reused a lot of the same masking. There's plenty of differences though - enough to make me dubious about pin-compatibility between the GP104 and GP 106. OTOH the GPU packages are the same size, so it's certainly not inconceivable.
The right hand side of the board is different, so is the size of the VRAM packages.
I always thought the blanks were for the traces that led to disabled memory controllers.
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